Rule Changes For 2006 NFBC

dlongood · Post by **dlongood** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:46 pm

Greg:

I am very opposed to allowing twice a week substitutions. In addition to the very good points about streaming pitchers and the fundamental strategy implications the rule would create, I have a pragmatic concern as well. We all spend a lot of time on our teams and by and large it is great fun. But there is a point of diminishing return. Allowing changes twice a week will dramatically increase the amount of time owners will need to spend in order to remain competitive. Many owners go on vacations of varying lengths during the summer. In addition, although many owners have jobs in the sports or fantasy news industry, a lot of us have jobs not directly related to sports or fantasy and some (myself included) also have auction teams. It is tough enough trying to stay current making roster changes and entering free agent bids once week. Twice a week is asking a lot and risks turning a great joy into an obsessive grind.

kd.gray · Post by **kd.gray** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:57 pm

I've always been the type of player that would use whatever rules you throw at me. I've tried just about every type of league there is. So I won't be bothered either way with the rule changes.

I will mention that ESPN.com has a Maximum games started for your pitching staff to temper those owners that choose to stream their pitchers daily. For our purposes, pick a number that corresponds with having a full staff of SP's playing all year. (i.e. 9 pitchers X 35 starts= 315 starts maximum).

Either way I'm back next year.

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:37 am

Sorry guys, but I have a 3rd point that may be most relevant:

Point 3: Let's call it 'Roster Balance' or 'Capitalization'. Right now I think there is a fairly equal balance to the split of managers priorities between offense and pitching bench. at least until injuries beset you. This would imply that we see fairly equal risks and rewards for carrying a batter over a pitcher. Certainly this will vary due to one's draft and/or injuries throughout the year. I would be willing to guess that if we institute a twice weekly roster move then carrying extra pitchers would become a premium because of the greater assurance of adding cumulative stats. Of course it has its risks as well (higher ERA and WHIP). Anyway, that's not so much of a problem because of the lack of depth available in pitching - 'do it at your own risk'. What I see as the problem is those minority of managers, whom drafted pitchers well and/or got lucky with them, whom don't require the extra stash of pitchers, having a greater pool of batters to choose from because of the above result. Basically, roster mistakes or carelessness by the less competitive/knowledgable managers within a league will be capitalized on more so than now.

Another way of looking at it, is such a rule change will magnify the imbalances of competitiveness from one league to another, thus improve one's chances in the overall comp when playing in a less knowledgable league.

I hope everyone understood that because now that I think about it, this issue fears me the most.

[ September 22, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: nydownunder ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:24 am

All good points. For the record:

1) People are streaming in two-start pitchers every week with FAAB pickups.

2) Streaming in two-start pitchers doesn't guarantee success. There's a reason several of those pitchers are on the free agent wires during the season and trying to pick up Ks and Ws often results in higher ERAs and WHIPs.

That being said, the intent of the rule would be to allow people to move injured players out of their starting lineups after Monday, but I understand the can of worms that could be opened. So here's a few possible provisions:

1) Allow twice-weekly roster moves just for hitters, thus creating the ideal scenario I suggested above. Pitchers could not be changed on the Friday starting lineups (UFS, this won't take 20 minutes a week).

2) Or allow 26 Friday changes per year, an average of one move per week. I'd have to check with STATS to see if this is possible, but it's an option I'm throwing out there.

I think allowing just moves to your hitters creates the intent I'm trying here with the Friday starting lineup change. Anyone see any problems with that?

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:55 am

option 3

only allow DL'd players to be switched on friday's

kd.gray · Post by **kd.gray** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:05 am

I think Gekko has a good point. if your intent is to help owners with injuries, then make it a DL move. Pitcher or hitter. I don't think many will have a complaint about this.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:42 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

option 3

only allow DL'd players to be switched on friday's I don't disagree that this is an option and STATS says it is possible to have this programmed this way. However, we're both worried about players that go to the DL on Friday or are rumored to be going on the DL. It could present the same problem we have now with players being called up to the majors on Sundays, where users want to make the move because they read a player is going to the DL on ESPN.com or Rotoworld, etc., but can't because we haven't received the official transaction yet. Plus, STATS only gets DL transactions once a day and its updated overnight, so a player going on the DL on Friday morning, for example, wouldn't be marked that way until Saturday.

So it's possible, but there could be some confusion problems late in the week if we went this way.

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:07 am

I have had more than one player go on the DL in the same week, so I don't like limiting the number of moves per week to only one. However, I can see the wisdom in limiting the total number of moves in a season and letting each owner use them as he sees fit. I would think 10 moves per season makes sense. That should cover all DL situations and allow healthier owners to only make a few extra moves without creating the streaming pitcher situations that many are worried about. This seems like the perfect compromise to me.

la Jolla · Post by **la Jolla** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:09 am

right idea with all the options, but players do get hurt on monday thru friday and do not get d.l.'d but still do not play in those weekend games...so something that allows hitters only to be moved in and out on friday even if it is limited to 1 hitter per week, i like that idea the most thus far.

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:25 am

C'mon, we all know players are ONLY put on the DL 5 minutes after the 1st game is started on monday anyway ! Unlimited DL moves on friday should work well for the NFBC.

Q

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:32 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

option 3

only allow DL'd players to be switched on friday's I don't disagree that this is an option and STATS says it is possible to have this programmed this way. However, we're both worried about players that go to the DL on Friday or are rumored to be going on the DL. It could present the same problem we have now with players being called up to the majors on Sundays, where users want to make the move because they read a player is going to the DL on ESPN.com or Rotoworld, etc., but can't because we haven't received the official transaction yet. Plus, STATS only gets DL transactions once a day and its updated overnight, so a player going on the DL on Friday morning, for example, wouldn't be marked that way until Saturday.

So it's possible, but there could be some confusion problems late in the week if we went this way. [/QUOTE]What you described above is how many Fantasy Leagues update the status of such players. I think it's unrealistic for us to think there should be live streaming data to update everything. If a player doesn't get DL'd by Thursday night then that the just tough luck.

The only other option is for STATS to have the flexibility to carry out a DL transaction any day of the week. That way if takes that extra day, they can still get the player in the following day.

My vote would be for officially DL'd players only. And this is from someone whom has had more bereaveement leave, birth leave, flus, and pitchers hit with line drives this year than many if not all managers.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:36 am

Originally posted by Quahogs:

C'mon, we all know players are ONLY put on the DL 5 minutes after the 1st game is started on monday anyway ! Unlimited DL moves on friday should work well for the NFBC.

Q Isn't that the truth!

It would be unlimited DL moves if your players were actually added to the DL after setting Monday's lineup and before Friday's lineups are due. And again, you could only replace those guys with people on your reserve roster.

This compromise wouldn't be adding more work to owners as I think we all know the player who lands on the DL on Tuesday. Those guys (or teams for doing it) tick us off. Now you'll have a little help if you just click on "Set Lineup" and click on Reserve and Active. This will also avoid the streaming pitcher concern.

The player MUST officially be on the MLB DL list and on STATS' DL list. If he isn't added until after Friday's lineups are due, then so be it. Don't be mad at STATS. The list we have is the list we'll go with each Friday and life moves on if your guy wasn't officially added to the DL list. The idea is to allow owners to have a few games of productivity from a spot that was getting a 0 since Monday's starting lineups were set.

Are we getting closer?

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:03 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Are we getting closer? done. thanks.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:25 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

All good points. For the record:

1) People are streaming in two-start pitchers every week with FAAB pickups.

2) Streaming in two-start pitchers doesn't guarantee success. There's a reason several of those pitchers are on the free agent wires during the season and trying to pick up Ks and Ws often results in higher ERAs and WHIPs.

That being said, the intent of the rule would be to allow people to move injured players out of their starting lineups after Monday, but I understand the can of worms that could be opened. So here's a few possible provisions:

1) Allow twice-weekly roster moves just for hitters, thus creating the ideal scenario I suggested above. Pitchers could not be changed on the Friday starting lineups (UFS, this won't take 20 minutes a week).

2) Or allow 26 Friday changes per year, an average of one move per week. I'd have to check with STATS to see if this is possible, but it's an option I'm throwing out there.

I think allowing just moves to your hitters creates the intent I'm trying here with the Friday starting lineup change. Anyone see any problems with that? B.S. It takes 20 minutes every time I analyze every P and all of their matchups for the week.

This would be no different. I'd have to check every pitcher again, every matchup again. It's only when I check every possibility, that I can then set my rotation.

Anything less and I have no chance of winning.

I am in the industry, Thursdays andf Fridays are very busy for me. I also have two kids in HS will all their activities on the weekends.

Sunday night/Monday morning moves work very well for the vast majority of fantasy players. Adding another layer makes this a job and takes another level of fun out of it.

26 moves does not help either. You'd still have to spend all that time.

There are already too many rules in roto where the rules of roto determine the winner, and not one's judgement of players. KISS. The more complex you make it, the less likely it will be for owners to join.

This Monday IR thing.... When did this become such a huge problem? Someone please list me all the players addected by this problem this year.

THANKS!!

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:28 am

I think allowing hitter only moves on Friday would be simplest to implement. It would also allow managers to replace players who lost their jobs earlier in the week. I know there is a large vocal contingent who don't want to do anything with their teams but once a week, but there are also many who would like to tinker with their lineups daily, I think it's time we throw them a bone.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:37 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Are we getting closer? done. thanks. [/QUOTE]Next time I read the entire thread before posting.

This works.

But if this works, why not incorporate IR FULLY into the game?

Something like 25 active, 10 IR Max.

This means Dyv could field a team of active players

The moment someone comes off your DL, he goes right on active roster.

If that puts you over 25, then you can't FAAB or Set a lineup until you waive/DL enough players to get back to 25. The perfect penalty.

I have done this for years now. Owners love it. NO BS grace periods. Decisions, decisions, decisions decide the winner.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:43 am

Hilarious. This is like going to a session of Congress. Take a good idea, hit it with worse case scenarios and come up with more ideas that will water it down until it doesen't appeal to anybody, then vote it down as a silly rule change in the first place.

If Managers feel they can get an advantage by loading up with pitchers, LET THEM! Their ERA's and WHIP will suffer not to mention all hitting categories since they are loading up on pitching. As far as more time being spent on researching matchups.....BUNK...you're already looking at every possible matchup on your roster if you're at all a decent Manager. Twice a week moves would put more emphasis on your managing skills, matching up with each team instead of playing hit and miss with weekly lineups, provides more lefty-righty matchups and puts players in your lineup that WILL play, no maybe's. A win-win for everybody that isn't stale and fights change for the sake of fighting change. Geez, speaking of Congress, I'll get down off my soapbox. Thanks for your time.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:00 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Take a good idea, hit it with worse case scenarios and come up with more ideas that will water it down until it doesen't appeal to anybody, then vote it down as a silly rule change in the first place.

the worst case scenario is also the likely scenario.

you say water it down...i say improve the idea

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:16 am

You take the worse case scenario team, I'll take the balanced team and I'll beat you every time. Like loading up on RP's, it is doomed to fail.

A lot of Managers are thinking worst case scenario, how about best case? You've got a middle of the road pitcher, he gets ripped by the Yankees and blows the Orioles away, twice a week lets you pitch him against the O's and sit vs. the Yanks.If loading up on pitchers still frightens you then simply take the most innings pitched by an NFBC team this year and have it as a ceiling on IP for next year. Damn, now I've watered it down. :rolleyes:

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:56 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

You take the worse case scenario team, I'll take the balanced team and I'll beat you every time. it is doomed to fail. wrong. i guess you haven't fully thought out the process and ramifications of having unlimited friday switches.

[ September 22, 2005, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Gordon Gekko ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:12 pm

If the idea is for DL-replacement only, why not allow a guy that goes on the DL to be replaced with an active player at any time - why wait 'til Friday?

That said, the "offical DL rule" is a bit of a problem itself, since guys often miss most of a week, or more, without being DL'd. However, I do think this is a decent option relative to your original idea if the objective is to reduce the injury penalty without changing other dynamics of the game.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:16 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

If the idea is for DL-replacement only, why not allow a guy that goes on the DL to be replaced with an active player at any time - why wait 'til Friday? owners will complain that they have to spend too much time "watching" their team

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

However, I do think this is a decent option relative to your original idea if the objective is to reduce the injury penalty without changing other dynamics of the game. agreed. the DL-switch only could only enhance the game.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:24 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

If the idea is for DL-replacement only, why not allow a guy that goes on the DL to be replaced with an active player at any time - why wait 'til Friday?

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

owners will complain that they have to spend too much time "watching" their team

If one of your players get DL'd, you should know about it. Doesn't take any analysis, its about a 15-second click and scan. And really, if you don't know your player has been on the DL for 4 days, you don't deserve to have a replacment in your lineup.

[ September 22, 2005, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:39 pm

Greg -

How about one move per week after the deadline with no restrictions. Monday afternoon, Friday night, Saturday morning, whenever.

This would:

1) eliminate timing issues with the "official DL", which the more I think about it, the more I think it would be a major headache for all involved

2) keep people from streaming pitchers

3) allow an immediate replacement if someone is injured but won't go on the DL for 3 days

4) allow teams to get value out of a 2-start pitcher that is heading to Coors for one game

5) give the fantasy junky something to think about every day

Also, it isn't a huge disadvantage to anyone if they don't use it, while it does allow for additional team mgt and strategy. Any thoughts on this one?

[ September 22, 2005, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:53 pm

And while we're discussing rule changes, I'd like to see 1/4 of a Win for a quality start. I'm sick of teams being incapable of hitting when my starter is on the mound!

Seriously though, the Win category is one of the biggest uncontrollable (unfair) factors. Adding a fractional win for a QS would make selecting pitchers a lot more interesting.