Canseco's Revenge

[knuckleheads]

MLB, Owners, GMs, Coaches, Bud Selig, and most significantly baseball writers knew performance enhancing drugs were used rampantly throughout the 90s and 00s. There was no outrage, and in fact, there was a general acceptance of the practice.

As Jose Canseco said at the time, MLB blackballed him at the end of his career when he was still a productive hitter. In his last season, 2001, he played 76 games and hit 16 HR, 49 RBI with a .366 OBP, and for those of you who care, an .843 OPS. In 2002 he could not find a job, it seemed, because everybody thought he was an ass. Regardless, he was dying to play and nobody would give him a contract.

His response to his banishment was to write a book outing baseball for being a performance enhancing cesspool. Despite a barrage of personal ridicule, the truth seeped out and Canseco was vindicated. None of the those listed in the first paragraph had a hundredth of impact that Jose Canseco has had in leading MLB to cleaning up its game.

Writers (hall of fame voters) who were complicit in the doping now use their disingenuous platforms to stand in judgement of players who were encouraged by all to improve their game in whichever way was necessary.

Message posters call for lifetime bans for players. If there is a lifetime ban to be given out, it should be to Selig. He allowed the doping without a word against it. If there is someone to be ridiculed, it is the self-righteous writers who praised the pharmaceutical feats of McGwire and Sosa, or Lenny Dykstra in the 1993 playoffs with nary line of rebuke. If there is a voice to be dismissed, it is fantasy baseball player demanding the banishment of the players on whom fantasy baseball is reliant.

And if there is one who refused to be made irrelevant, it is Jose Canseco, who had the last laugh.

[Outlaw]

MLB, Owners, GMs, Coaches, Bud Selig, and most significantly baseball writers knew performance enhancing drugs were used rampantly throughout the 90s and 00s. There was no outrage, and in fact, there was a general acceptance of the practice.

As Jose Canseco said at the time, MLB blackballed him at the end of his career when he was still a productive hitter. In his last season, 2001, he played 76 games and hit 16 HR, 49 RBI with a .366 OBP, and for those of you who care, an .843 OPS. In 2002 he could not find a job, it seemed, because everybody thought he was an ass. Regardless, he was dying to play and nobody would give him a contract.

His response to his banishment was to write a book outing baseball for being a performance enhancing cesspool. Despite a barrage of personal ridicule, the truth seeped out and Canseco was vindicated. None of the those listed in the first paragraph had a hundredth of impact that Jose Canseco has had in leading MLB to cleaning up its game.

Writers (hall of fame voters) who were complicit in the doping now use their disingenuous platforms to stand in judgement of players who were encouraged by all to improve their game in whichever way was necessary.

Message posters call for lifetime bans for players. If there is a lifetime ban to be given out, it should be to Selig. He allowed the doping without a word against it. If there is someone to be ridiculed, it is the self-righteous writers who praised the pharmaceutical feats of McGwire and Sosa, or Lenny Dykstra in the 1993 playoffs with nary line of rebuke. If there is a voice to be dismissed, it is fantasy baseball player demanding the banishment of the players on whom fantasy baseball is reliant.

And if there is one who refused to be made irrelevant, it is Jose Canseco, who had the last laugh.

Well said on the impact Canseco has had..Slow progress has been made since Jose outed them all. Baseball is at a time now, where the opportunity exists to finally clean it all up, at least where the penalties will mean something for the few who will still choose to cheat. It's quite possible, after we are long gone, that Canseco may be regarded a little differently (positively) in terms of what he did. As for the money hungry owners, Agents, players, Selig...they got what they deserved and their legacy remains to be seen.

As for Fantasy, I personally have no problem asking for lifetime bans for the cheats, even if its a 100 players, but that's my opinion. They are users of illegal performance enhancing Drugs. There are thousands of good clean ballplayers who can replace them. Players who use the talent they were born with, the hard work they put in... I'll take Puig any day over Braun, I'll take Chris Davis any day over Aroid.. so long as they are clean. Fantasy will live on long past this slimy group of players and is not reliant on them at all.... unless the gov't bans it for some unknown reason. It's a hard enough challenge to play fantasy, without having to consider who is using and who is not using.

Not for nothing but this whole Fantasy baseball season has been a yo yo because this latest PEDS scandal broke before the season. The fan didn't cause it, the Fantasy player didn't cause it.... the dirtbags who sold the PEDS to the Cheating players caused it and MLB as usual still hadn't rid the game of it, despite Canseco telling them it was going on. Do I draft this possible PED player, Will he get suspended, Are thier replacements for the player on FAAB if he gets suspended, when will the suspension come, if they come? Sorry, the fans and fantasy players did not cause this mess.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Soon after Canseco's book came out and some truth's were being found out, I had a friend that was appalled at how the public had embraced Jose Canseco.
Here was a man that was a leader of the steroid generation. A man that does anything to make a buck. A man who is proud of steroid use. A man who wrote the book, not to right wrongs, but only for personal gain.
I'll never forget my friends disappointment with fans in general. And never forget his analogy.
He said that Jose Canseco was a little like a serial killer who finally confessed and is telling who helped him and where all the dead bodies are hidden. For the moment, his own digressions are forgotten, while folks appreciate him in knowing the whole truth.
It's a harsh analogy, to be sure.

[CASS]

PED's are not going anywhere....been around forever and will be going forward...when u have this much money at stake people will always look for the edge. The odd thing that is rarely discussed - Why is this such a witch hunt in MLB yet u rarely hear a pep in the NFL - i bet 90% are juicing like crazy...and no one cares. The product is all the masses really care about. I say let it go...relax...enjoy the game.

[knuckleheads]

Or take last night's NBA Championship. 6'9" guys that look like body builders is a fairly new occurrence. Historically, guys that tall generally have had the physique of a green bean.

[CASS]

Exactly....lets get a test on Labron...i mean he's only 270 ripped....thats normal. Sure he never took anything...naaaa no chance.

[Outlaw]

Exactly....lets get a test on Labron...i mean he's only 270 ripped....thats normal. Sure he never took anything...naaaa no chance.

I'm not a big BKB fan, but Heat players are supposedly involved with BioGen. I think the other sports will eventually have to get tougher also and may very well feel the fallout from the MLB PEDS mess... In being consistent, The stuff is illegal, its wrong and anyone making whatever excuse they want to even remotely condone PEDS use IMO is wrong. One of the biggest disappointments I have seen since we all got wind of PEDS in any sport years ago, is that being how many people seemingly want to excuse it away or even condone it.

[Chthroop]

MLB, Owners, GMs, Coaches, Bud Selig, and most significantly baseball writers knew performance enhancing drugs were used rampantly throughout the 90s and 00s. There was no outrage, and in fact, there was a general acceptance of the practice.

As Jose Canseco said at the time, MLB blackballed him at the end of his career when he was still a productive hitter. In his last season, 2001, he played 76 games and hit 16 HR, 49 RBI with a .366 OBP, and for those of you who care, an .843 OPS. In 2002 he could not find a job, it seemed, because everybody thought he was an ass. Regardless, he was dying to play and nobody would give him a contract.

His response to his banishment was to write a book outing baseball for being a performance enhancing cesspool. Despite a barrage of personal ridicule, the truth seeped out and Canseco was vindicated. None of the those listed in the first paragraph had a hundredth of impact that Jose Canseco has had in leading MLB to cleaning up its game.

Writers (hall of fame voters) who were complicit in the doping now use their disingenuous platforms to stand in judgement of players who were encouraged by all to improve their game in whichever way was necessary.

Message posters call for lifetime bans for players. If there is a lifetime ban to be given out, it should be to Selig. He allowed the doping without a word against it. If there is someone to be ridiculed, it is the self-righteous writers who praised the pharmaceutical feats of McGwire and Sosa, or Lenny Dykstra in the 1993 playoffs with nary line of rebuke. If there is a voice to be dismissed, it is fantasy baseball player demanding the banishment of the players on whom fantasy baseball is reliant.

And if there is one who refused to be made irrelevant, it is Jose Canseco, who had the last laugh.

I don't love selig but to say he is the biggest culprit is crazy. I remember those days and how the players union always blocked every move. Could the owners and selig have done more sure. But that doesn't mean they are the most guilty

[knuckleheads]

I don't love selig but to say he is the biggest culprit is crazy. I remember those days and how the players union always blocked every move.

There was no move by MLB to ban PEDs prior to Canseco's book. PEDs were not disallowed by the CBA at the time, which is why no punishments could be levied after the Mitchell report. It's safe to say the use of PEDs was encouraged by teams and baseball.

Congress held hearings because MLB was complicit. Selig fell in line and has followed up his inaction with several years of significant progress, and now overreaction in the BioGenisis investigation. MLB has just always looked like amateur hour under Selig.

I think Doughboy's friend's analogy is like comparing apples and apple orchards, but I can see the comparison.

He said that Jose Canseco was a little like a serial killer who finally confessed and is telling who helped him and where all the dead bodies are hidden. For the moment, his own digressions are forgotten, while folks appreciate him in knowing the whole truth.
It's a harsh analogy, to be sure.

If that is Canseco's analogy, then what is Selig's? Canseco's action hurt only himself and the fairness of competition. Selig's lack of action led to many players who had no initial interest in PEDs feeling as if they needed to enhance to compete.

I began to think Selig is analogous to Eliot Spitzer, but decided that would be unfair to Spitzer. While both are hypocritical, Spitzer had his period of coming clean. Selig has pretended to have always been clean. He's never had his confession. He's never taken an ounce of responsibility. And now he's found a perch to point his dirty finger at others.

[Outlaw]

[quote="knuckleheads"][quote="Chthroop"]
Congress held hearings because MLB was complicit. Selig fell in line and has followed up his inaction with several years of significant progress, and now overreaction in the BioGenisis investigation. MLB has just always looks like amateur hour under Selig.quote]


So Selig is to blame for PEDS use the past 25 years? Try Don Fehr and the owners.. Nothing significant happenend in regards to PEDS use and testing and punishments until Fehr was "asked to leave" by the players in 2009. Fehr was always 100% against testing. Fehr Left because everyone was tired of the PEDS use. The owners wanted him gone, the players wanted him gone, Selig wanted him Gone and the Fans wanted him gone.

The Biogen investigation is an over reaction? How so? What would you propose they do instead?

[knuckleheads]

So Selig is to blame for PEDS use the past 25 years? Try Don Fehr and the owners..

Yes. The commissioner is hired by the owners (Selig was an owner for much of time he has acted as commissioner) to represent the owners. Increasing disciplinary measures against players is not the Union Representative's responsibility. You might argue that Donald Fehr should have had the health of the players at heart, but then you would need to determine how detrimental PEDs are to a player's health.

Fehr was an obstacle, but it was on Selig's watch that PED use spread rampantly. I can think of no other organization that would not hold the top officer responsible for such an absence of leadership. Selig has accomplished plenty as commissioner that has improved the game, however, on this subject he was a total failure and is now over-compensating.

[knuckleheads]

Outlaw,

I've read much of what you've had to write on the BioGen topic lately (btw, thanks for all the effort on the topic). I'd prefer players not use PEDs, but I was not offended by PED use during the 20 years when use was most prevalent.

However, Selig's successfully shedding blame regarding PEDs is why baseball is handcuffed in just how far they can push the PED issue. Selig will not do anything that risks his being deposed on the topic (See Paula Dean for unwanted questions in legal matters). Which means MLB will not allow any action to go to court where Selig could be subpoenaed. Perhaps the recent changes to the CBA will limit a player's ability to take an issue to court, but generally on the other side of failed arbitration is court.

Your desires for grandly punitive suspensions I believe is unlikely to unfold. If reports are true and MLB has paid for all of it's information on BioGen, or at least extracted it by agreement to drop lawsuits against those who provide information, then I am afraid MLB will end up once again looking like the Coyote from the Road Runner Show.

[Outlaw]

Outlaw,

I've read much of what you've had to write on the BioGen topic lately (btw, thanks for all the effort on the topic). I'd prefer players not use PEDs, but I was not offended by PED use during the 20 years when use was most prevalent.

However, Selig's successfully shedding blame regarding PEDs is why baseball is handcuffed in just how far they can push the PED issue. Selig will not do anything that risks his being deposed on the topic (See Paula Dean for unwanted questions in legal matters). Which means MLB will not allow any action to go to court where Selig could be subpoenaed. Perhaps the recent changes to the CBA will limit a player's ability to take an issue to court, but generally on the other side of failed arbitration is court.

Your desires for grandly punitive suspensions I believe is unlikely to unfold. If reports are true and MLB has paid for all of it's information on BioGen, or at least extracted it by agreement to drop lawsuits against those who provide information, then I am afraid MLB will end up once again looking like the Coyote from the Road Runner Show.

Knuckleheads- I value others opinions and respect them, including yours, and that is where anyone interested in MLB cleaning up drug/PEDS use is at presently, after 15 or more years of trying, We sit and wonder will it ever happen. As with anything in life sometimes change does not occur as swiftly as interested people like.

My desires I think are representative of most of the fans and players these days, who collectively want the problem dealt with once and for all and harshly this time.

A few things to consider regarding MLB and its case

They continue to maintain an Anti Trust Exemption- rightly or wrongly is another issue.

MLB is a private enterprise and they enjoy plenty of legal protection from The Right to Free Association - albeit The Best interests of baseball powers the Commissioner possesses. It took a lot less then this PEDS stuff to ban many players over the years, including Mantle and Mays for 2 years, until they agreed not to associate with Casinos and gamblers.

They have a CBA with the players that prohibits both sides from going to court under almost all circumstances. Arbitration is the agreed method to resolve disputes. The Courts rarely or will ever get involved when there is a CBA. They have been historically hesitant to interfere with decisions rendered by jointly approved arbitrators per existing labor agreements.

As for witnesses and payments to talk or provide documents/proof, almost all of that is speculation. No one at this point has any idea how much if any of these reported payments are true. The few people talking about that are of less than stellar character. I have not heard Bosch ( a less than stellar Character too) say he has been paid? In Fact he has not even been dropped from the lawsuit against him. Boschs brother was dropped from the MLB lawsuit right after the ESPN report came out and its not a stretch to figure out why and he is an attorney also. There are reports AROD paid Bosch 4K 5 months ago to keep quite. Who's paying who remains to be seen, but most people involved are not getting paid anything and in fact are just telling what they know and cooperating.

IMO If it ever went to court, and if Selig had to testify, I don't see him having an issue telling the whole complete story of when they became aware (15 yrs ago) of PEDs, what they tried to do to stop it and what is presently going on. I would also think he might even welcome it, but unfortunately IMO it will never get that far.

There have been over 20 people who already have been deposed as part of MLB's lawsuit over the past 2 months. I doubt any of them have been paid to testify under oath. There are reports of many others, including players, cooperating without being deposed. I highly doubt anyone or any player will be able to prove that All (possibly 35-50 people/players) are all lying and all the written evidence and documentation is fake. There are reports of other U of M players outside of Bruans college teammates Cabrillo and Albir, who have been providing information. The University fired the Strength and conditioning coach of 9 years, after their investigation was completed recently. One can make an assumption as to why.

There is witness Testimony and there is documented evidence. The Records, the money trails, Bank and CC records, the pictures, the phone calls, texts, emails, plane trips, 3rd parties delivering the PEDS, car rentals and on and on. Together all of it appears to be going against players at this point. If all of this is made up, the documentation is all fake and every person has lied and these players did nothing, then they should fight and clear their names. People need to remember though that certain players have already corroborated their involvement with BioGen and other clinics.

I'd also like to know how they explain the pictures, like Melky with Tony B at the all star game last year as an example, right after he won the MVP award.

Like I said in one of my earlier posts, last year I had Melky in a few NFBC leagues and he basically blew those leagues up for me, especially my ME team where I finshed third. I would like to think that we all here at NFBC can go into next year without all this PEDS stuff going on and knwoing that MLB and the players have cleaned it up the best they can. But right now, we are all in our scond season of dealing with this crap and this year it might have a big impact on our fantasy teams.

[DOUGHBOYS]

A few brief opinions....

Trying to place blame is silly.
Selig, Fehr, Canseco, the writers, the teams.....who cares?
It happened.

Canseco never 'lost' anything in writing the book. He had few friends in baseball and he got his money. Heavy on the money.
He's not getting a 'last laugh'. A last laugh does not make money.

I don't think the steroid or PED's bomb has gone off in football or basketball because those sports are like baseball was in the late 1990's.
It looks cool.
LeBron James looks cool being Superman.
Football fans like their running backs to be a fast 260 pounds being tackled by 330 pounders.
When it gets 'too' out of hand, the same thing will happen in those sports.

Truth is, we like All-Star Wrestling bodies. The same way we like movie effects for the 'Fantastic Four', etc.
Part of us does not want to question how the bodies and effects came to be. It would ruin the 'magic' for us.

At the same time, we like tradition. Those PED's and steroids messed with baseball history. More importantly, its numbers.
Numbers are held sacred in baseball. They aren't in basketball or football. So baseball will be the professional sport that is most against the use.

Football and basketball are more of an entertainment sport than baseball. The new generation finds baseball mundane. Former black players are having a hard time getting urban kids interested in baseball.
Basketball rules have been loosened to further assist the entertainment value. A football player is a Big Man on Campus.
A baseball player, merely, a baseball player.

If a lot of money is involved, no matter the venue or vocation, somebody will try to cheat to get more. It's a flaw of being an American, now, universal.
We like to think that every horse race is fair. In liklihood, it is not.
We like to think that every sporting event is fair, in liklihood, they are not.
Like the culprit who deals off the bottom of the deck, undetected, somebody is getting an advantage somewhere.

In baseball, getting the catchers signals from a scoreboard or stealing a third base coach signs or a batter looking back at the catcher, they were all done to get an edge.
Was it cheating?
It depends who we ask.
It's the same with steroids. Some think 10 %, some think 50%, some think 90% of players are cheating.
And these figures influence folks in whether it is really cheating.

And lastly, baseball fans are the only ones that really care. The typical guy walking down the street does not give a rats ass what a baseball player does to his body or the game.
They'll treat it like Lance Armstrong. They'll read the headlines about Armstrong for a week, hear the late night talk show jokes, and then dismiss it as fast as it came.
But later, when asked who the best bicyclist in the world is, those same folks will answer, Lance Armstrong.