And the hits just keep on coming....

[Captain Hook]

add Matt Moore - surgery and gone for the season ETA - I heard this on the radio on the way home but have checked multiple sources just now and don't see confirmation on it - fortunately we will know before Sunday

[Gekko]

Next up Avisail Garcia, torn labrum! WOW!

Sickening, 22 years old, no injury history, a major weapon in the middle rounds of every meaningful league for me. I can accept the pitcher injuries and those to the old, hobbled, and prone, but this one stings. Stock market's melting down too, nice day all the way around.

i didnt have him on the same % of teams you did, but i had him on enough. ugh

[Bama]

Wish the hits were coming, got 3 or 4 teams with 7 hr or less and terrible avg.

Oh they meant injury hits, getting my fair share of them 2.

[Yah Mule]

Next up Avisail Garcia, torn labrum! WOW!

Goddammit. I'm afraid to check the news anymore.

[Outlaw]

Changeups don't cause elbow or shoulder injuries. These pitchers these days are throwing curves, splits and sliders by the time they are 15, some as early as 10. Check any little league game, HS JV, HS Varsity and college game, the kids are all throwing this crap. They have no interest in throwing changeups or learning how to throw them, its not a sexy pitch for lack of a better term. They don't even know the difference between a 2 and 4 finger FB. Travel teams are win at all costs, even if a kid throws 250 pitches in 7 days. No one teaches a changeup anymore it seems or they don't know how to. These kids elbows and shoulders are all weak by the time they get to pro ball at around 20-21, some earlier. Added to that they don't play normal catch anymore, its all bullpen sessions, with 90-100% effort. Then when they get to pro ball, its all still the same old habits, and the pro teams then restrict their throwing. Any athlete is about done growing at about 22-24. Clemens didn't hit 90 mph until he was nearly 21. If pitchers threw 90% FB growing up their would not be these arm injuries. What is going on the last 5 years can be traced right back to when travel ball BS started and with lifting for pitchers, right around 15-20 years ago. some of the these pitchers got tree trunk biceps. Take a look at some of the older pitchers, like seaver, Carlton, Gibson, Guidry, they all had normal arms and all they did was play catch. no weights, just stretching and running. Pitchers don't run anymore and when you don't run you don't build up your legs, so a pitcher is forced to use his arm and generally Crap mechanics to generate power. they don't get you can get more power with strong legs and good mechanics.

I saw some legitimate reports in the past week that MLB and quite a few owners are seriously thinking about going to a 7 inning game and all because they cannot stop the injuries and the biggest reason is financial. They are losing too much money with all the injuries players are having and they feel the athletes cannot handle 162 and 9 innings. and it is under serious consideration and they will live the backlash if they ever go down that road, but its all financial and screw history with these owners. The baseball players should not be using weights like they do, especially for their upper bodies and trying to get bigger is the problem. Obliques, tom muscles, Arm injuries, all injuries we hardly ever heard about 15 years ago, at least at the pace they occur now. The past 15 years quite frankly the older players are healthier than the younger ones, makes no sense.

[headhunters]

i agree outlaw. i was thinking about that topic today- just seems we don't have many owners with boys playing sports- or for that matter girls. the travel coaches could care less about these kids- use them up and move on. If an arm has so many innings and it is being used twice as often it stands to reason it will break down twice as fast. never mind the curves and sliders. bumgarner and lincy are two guys whose dads resisted the travel coaches and they should be the models. plus- whether girls or boys- peds are brought into the picture around 12 years old now.

[Yah Mule]

When I played little league in the mid-70's, my league didn't allow breaking balls from pitchers under 13 years old.

[Steel Lugnuts]

My son played travel ball from age 11 and pitched for his high school, he only threw a knuckle curve for his breaking pitch (no break of the wrist, no strain on his elbow), and never had any arm issues. He also never "iced" up his arm after pitching and tried to stay away from the weights, until the high school forced the issue!

As to what someone had mentioned earlier about offering up one or two DL spots, in addition to the 7 bench spots. I say add ten DL spots!! This is beyond ridiculous.

[Outlaw]

Straight from Dr. Doom:

In a fascinating interview on Sirius XM's MLB Network Radio with Mike Ferrin and Jim Duquette (audio link), famed surgeon Dr. James Andrews says that the recent run of Tommy John surgeries is a trend, not just coincidence. In his view, elbow ligament issues find their roots in a pitcher's amateur time. "So you can usually go back and see a minor injury from when they were a young kid throwing youth baseball that was not recognized, but it set them up for a major injury somewhere down the road," said Andrews. "If we can keep these kids clean through high school, then we’re going to see a lot less number of them getting hurt as they become mature college players and professional players. So you’ve got to prevent it at a young age."

Well worth the listen for nay Dads out there who have sons who pitch.

https://soundcloud.com/mlbnetworkradio/ ... ysician-on

[Outlaw]

My son played travel ball from age 11 and pitched for his high school, he only threw a knuckle curve for his breaking pitch (no break of the wrist, no strain on his elbow), and never had any arm issues. He also never "iced" up his arm after pitching and tried to stay away from the weights, until the high school forced the issue!

As to what someone had mentioned earlier about offering up one or two DL spots, in addition to the 7 bench spots. I say add ten DL spots!! This is beyond ridiculous.

I was going to mention the Knuckle Ball, my son threw it all the way through college ball, He was also a pitcher growing up. His knuckle was nasty, he learned it by himself by playing catch. I taught him the changeup around 12 or so and he started throwing that in Freshman ball. He had a good over the top curve that he would throw maybe 5 times a game on Varsity. He played catch almost every day at about 75 ft, only once in while in College would he long toss. He also did not do weights. We had one issue with a coach that used him the next day for 2 innings, after throwing 7 innings in summer ball, the day before. That never happened again after I spoke with that coach. He never, ever had an arm issue or did his arm ever hurt him. He had his base mechanics down by age 10 or so and they never changed. His mechanics allowed him to always be on "top" of the ball, no matter what pitch. His 3rd yr (20) in college ball he finally stopped growing at 6-4". he entered college at 6-2". He did have a ex SF Giants pitcher work with him twice a month once he got to HS, but that was all to teach him the art of pitching and show him how to do things like make the ball move more, especially his FastBall. He would teach him how to attack hitters, set them up, Stuff none of his coaches could ever teach him. One game in HS, he threw 7 innings, 68 pitches, 5ks, 3 hits, no walks, 1 run and in that game I remember it was cold out, an it seemed like every pitch he threw was down and a strike. He had quite a few 7 inning games under 80 pitches because he was a strike thrower and pitch to contact pitcher.

While in HS, my son would top out at about 86-88. He had some colleges looking at him. But the other HS SP was a Stud at 94-97MPH, and there would be 20-30 scouts at every game. He would K 12-15 a game. He got drafted out of HS, Number 3 in the nation, 2002 I believe. He signed the day he got drafted for 2.5 million, largest Bonus ever for that team. I was the Stat keeper for the HS team and charted every pitch. Some scouts would always find me and ask that I email them that days charts/stats when this kid threw. Others didn't. At around 11pm the night he got drafted, I got a call from the head scout for the team that drafted him and he told me he was in a bind and needed this kids HS stats and charts. I remember asking him, you don't have them? So I emailed all of it to him that night. The kid ended up throwing 92 total innings over 4 years, and after 3 shoulder surgeries, the first was a month after his rookie ball season ended (4 months after being drafted), he was done- a complete bust as they call it. That signing in fact led to the firing of the MLB GM at the end of 2003 season. He lifted weights and was ripped. His arm hurt after every game he pitched and him and his dad hid that from the scouts. The whispers were all around he was doing Roids too. In later years it was pretty much confirmed he did do the roids. My son told me all along he knew he did roids. My son even asked me about doing them, because he would always say look at how hard his friend threw. I told him no way, your speed will come as you continue to grow and will be what it will be through hard work, not roids. All I will say is any kid throwing 92 or more in HS, scouts better really check out what that kid is about. Roids and bad pitching mechanics are rampant throughout HS Ball these days.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Well, this has turned into a dreary thread. Instead of elbow, shoulder, and arm problems, there is a story I know about quite the opposite....

There was a boy of 16. He lived next door to a beguiling woman. The woman was single, attractive, and had very many men who would knock on her door. He noticed that some even spent the night there.
He dreamed of being one of those men.
His dream came true, when a conversation in front of the house, turned into an invitation for lemonade, which then led to the youngster losing his virginity.
Afterwards, the boy asked if he had done everything right. The woman giggled. She told him everything was fine except for the size of his 'doodad'. He withdrew. She didn't stop. She said that if his doodad was a tree, that she had seen Redwood's, oaks, and pines. But would classify his as a sapling.
The boy left distraught.
He decided he would pull on his doodad anytime he was alone. And never have relations till something changed.
He graduated high school.
He graduated College.
Armed with a college degree, he knew that he would never use it.


During college, he had become a hit with women and was aiming to join a professional circuit. At this time, you may be thinking that it would have to do with something, such as becoming a porn star.
No such luck.
All those years of pulling his doodad had overdeveloped his right arm. He became unbeatable in arm wrestling world. He won amateur state championships and was anxious to enter the professional ranks.
Sadly, his doodad remained a sapling.
But, whenever a fan or admirer commented that his arm looked like a tree, he couldn't resist a wry smile.

[knuckleheads]

They don't even know the difference between a 2 and 4 finger FB.

This is the quintessential Outlaw quote.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool -- shun him.

[Edwards Kings]

All those years of pulling his doodad had overdeveloped his right arm. He became unbeatable in arm wrestling world. He won amateur state championships and was anxious to enter the professional ranks.
Sadly, his doodad remained a sapling.
But, whenever a fan or admirer commented that his arm looked like a tree, he couldn't resist a wry smile.

Yes, yes...all very well and good...but did he ever have surgery for TJS (Tugged Johnson Syndrome)?

[Outlaw]

They don't even know the difference between a 2 and 4 finger FB.

This is the quintessential Outlaw quote.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool -- shun him.

I think most got I meant seam.

[DOUGHBOYS]

All those years of pulling his doodad had overdeveloped his right arm. He became unbeatable in arm wrestling world. He won amateur state championships and was anxious to enter the professional ranks.
Sadly, his doodad remained a sapling.
But, whenever a fan or admirer commented that his arm looked like a tree, he couldn't resist a wry smile.

Yes, yes...all very well and good...but did he ever have surgery for TJS (Tugged Johnson Syndrome)?

Ha! Perfect Wayne

[Deadheadz]

Now AJ Burnett exits with sore groin, possibly strained but not a tugged Johnson

Not sure if any Philly minors pitchers are worth grabbing. Last I checked Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez wasn't close to being ready.

[Steel Lugnuts]

Now AJ Burnett exits with sore groin, possibly strained but not a tugged Johnson

Not sure if any Philly minors pitchers are worth grabbing. Last I checked Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez wasn't close to being ready.

Good, then I don't have to play this clown...glad I only have him in one league, should have stayed in Pitt.

[Steel Lugnuts]

"I was going to mention the Knuckle Ball, my son threw it all the way through college ball, He was also a pitcher growing up. His knuckle was nasty, he learned it by himself by playing catch."

Hey Outlaw, by knuckle curve, I wasn't referring to the knuckle ball. Picture holding a two seamer, take the index finger and put the first knuckle on the seam, then throw it like a fast ball, don't break the wrist like a curve ball. The pitch acts like a curve because all the pressure is on the middle finger, which is on the right seam. The ball naturally curves if you follow through correctly. So basically looks like a fastball leaving the hand, yet curves at the last second. My son buckled a few knees in the CABA 13u tourney vs Puerto Rico! He also threw his natural 3/4 angle, not over the top.

You'll see some pros lift the left index finger instead of using the knuckle, whatever feels comfortable. My son learned the pitch at 9yrs old from one of his neighbor friends, whose a descendant of Joe and Phil Niekro. While he wasn't allowed to throw an actual curve in travel until age 13, he started throwing his pitch in games at age 10 because he wasn't breaking his wrist. But the umps kept calling it a ball because it broke so much, they couldn't believe he wasn't throwing an actual curve ball. lol

As my son got older, his travel and H.S. coaches never even forced him to throw a "real' curve because of how good his knuckle curve was. He did only top out at about 84 mph, not what the scouts were looking for, not too mention fast cars and girls were higher on his priority list.

Oh, and one more thing, he never had a pitching lesson...not one (I've seen what lessons can do first hand to a couple friends of mine kids). I have video of him pitching at 18 months old, so he was definitely born to pitch, too bad he lost interest. Can't force your son to play ball as they get older.

Moral of the story? Have your son throw a knuckle curve, don't lift a ton of weights, never ice your arm after pitching (arm recovers faster when not cold)...and stay way from fast cars and pretty girls (at least until that first contract)!

[Deadheadz]

Andrew McCutcheon had an ankle problem last night.

http://dlvr.it/5NDhvy

[Outlaw]

Hey Outlaw, by knuckle curve, I wasn't referring to the knuckle ball. Picture holding a two seamer, take the index finger and put the first knuckle on the seam, then throw it like a fast ball, don't break the wrist like a curve ball. The pitch acts like a curve because all the pressure is on the middle finger, which is on the right seam. The ball naturally curves if you follow through correctly. So basically looks like a fastball leaving the hand, yet curves at the last second. My son buckled a few knees in the CABA 13u tourney vs Puerto Rico! He also threw his natural 3/4 angle, not over the top.


Oh, and one more thing, he never had a pitching lesson...not one (I've seen what lessons can do first hand to a couple friends of mine kids). I have video of him pitching at 18 months old, so he was definitely born to pitch, too bad he lost interest. Can't force your son to play ball as they get older.

Moral of the story? Have your son throw a knuckle curve, don't lift a ton of weights, never ice your arm after pitching (arm recovers faster when not cold)...and stay way from fast cars and pretty girls (at least until that first contract)! [/quote]

Agree with all you said Steel. Won't disagree that there are lot of pitching coaches that suck, I guess it depends on each kid and the coach selected and his skills and reputation. I've read up some more on all the arm injuries and as Dr. Andrews says and most medical professionals agree, the single biggest reason they feel causing all the arm injuries is bad Mechanics. I could line up a 100 coaches and maybe not more than 10 could explain what getting and staying on top of the ball means, they have no clue. I've seen far too many coaches teach kids how to get movement by screwing with their mechanics, and basically showing them how not stay on top of the ball, even though they have no idea they are doing that.

By the time these kids get to college and the pros, their mechanics are formed and its difficult for them to change. So when they throw mid 90's with nasty movement, the scouts still drool over it, thinking once they get them, they can change them. I watch ML pitchers now who do not stay on top of the ball. That's when the TV guys talk about pitchers throwing across their body, that's because they don't stay on top. Just look at the ptichers that have had 2 TJ surgerys, they are psoter childs for bad mechanics.

Any kid when they start throwing at whatever age, normally will start with a motion that comes close to be on top of the ball, if not on top, its when they start actually playing and coaches who have no clue start "teaching" and they start throwing the wrong way. Or if they start out throwing the wrong way, no one corrects them. Tom Seaver is one of the best examples of staying on top of the Ball. All the Greatest pitchers all stayed on top, every time. It's why they lasted. All the greats also did not have all this specialized training, weights, summer teams, travel teams, etc... They learned how to throw and play catch on the Farm, the school yard, the back yard and they played maybe 20 games a year in little league.

[Steel Lugnuts]

Staying on top of the ball is a great point Outlaw, and a major key to pitching, doesn't matter what arm angle. I was at one of my son's indoor travel ball practices one winter, and started watching a kid get pitching lessons. The kid threw side arm, and the coach said, "it doesn't matter how you throw, just keep your wrist point up and stay on top of the ball, that is the key...".

My son was pitching in a game last summer, 3-2 count, and threw the knuckle curve, and was actually walking off the mound as he threw it knowing it would be called strike three! Damn, I wish he still wanted to pitch...oh, the good ol' days.

Maybe I an get him into being a pitching coach. lol He's actually been teaching the neighbor kids the pitch, but you need long fingers for the pitch to work the best, and he has long, skinny fingers.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Add Ryan Zimmerman....

Just love head first slides.
Foot first slides are just not cool.
Just safe...

[Yah Mule]

A guy with a chronic shoulder problem, too. Brilliant. When is the last time a guy returned from a fractured thumb during the season and he wasn't a shell of himself?

[KJ Duke]

A guy with a chronic shoulder problem, too. Brilliant. When is the last time a guy returned from a fractured thumb during the season and he wasn't a shell of himself?

Head first is just ignorant going into 1b, questionable on a steal attempt ... but on a pickoff play, not much of a choice, pure baseball instinct.

[Yah Mule]

A guy with a chronic shoulder problem, too. Brilliant. When is the last time a guy returned from a fractured thumb during the season and he wasn't a shell of himself?

Head first is just ignorant going into 1b, questionable on a steal attempt ... but on a pickoff play, not much of a choice, pure baseball instinct.

Ah, didn't know it was a pickoff. That is a natural reaction. Just venting because he's my fifth red cross on a team where I'm already trying to finesse Kendrys through.