Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Navel Lint » Wed May 14, 2014 6:32 am

COZ wrote:Since everyone is so afraid to predict, and since I've already proven my prescience, I AM going to predict the next victims:
In no particular order: Jered Weaver, Craig Kimbrel, Greg Holland, Trevor Rosenthal, Joe Nathan, Matt Cain, & Carlos Martinez. Russell, please note this for my future I-told-you-so post. Who you got?

COZ
:D
Got it.

I would put Jarred Cosart on that list. I just don't like his motion. Which means nothing, I haven't liked other motions for pitchers that have had long careers, but he would be my pick.
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed May 14, 2014 7:59 am

33 pitchers have been afflicted with a torn ulnar. Since February 18, the date of the first Tommy John diagnosis this year, that is an average of a pitcher every two and one half days having the surgery.
Only one, Peter Moylan, 35, grew up in an era without pitch counts.
Moylan, Josh Johnson, 30, and Luke Hochevar, 30, are the only pitchers not in their 20's to have the surgery.

Last night, I watched the Mets Manager hover in the dugout as Zack Wheeler struggled in the fifth inning. Wheeler clearly did not have his best stuff last night, giving up seven hits, six walks, and five runs in a little over four innings.
But the Mets Management pride themselves in individual achievement and he was left in far too long to possibly get a Win since the Mets had beaten up Yankee pitchers.
Wheeler threw more pitches in those four and a third innings than he had in any game this year. The Mets Manager was driven by the Win for his pitcher and pitch count alone, not that Wheeler was clearly struggling.
No longer is a pitcher pulled for tiring. Instead, it is based on a number of pitches that supposedly puts every pitcher in the same box.

Every pitcher is different. But MLB Managers want to put every pitcher in that 100-120 pitch box.
Justin Verlander, clearly, can throw more pitches than Zack Wheeler. Verlander seemingly gets stronger as the game goes along.
Pitchers like Wheeler hit a wall and should be taken out.
Wheeler should never have come out for the fifth inning last night.
Instead, Managers are driven by the wrong reasons. They see a pitcher struggling and tiring, but use the pitch count as their 'true' barometer.

It'll take one organization to say, "We are not counting pitches." to change things.
That'll be tough. Pitch counts, like the velocity of pitches are on our tv screens. Seemingly important.
Every organization has bought into pitch counts. Even Little Leagues are using pitches instead of innings as a maximum for pitchers.
Each coach and Manager should trust their best judgment in seeing a pitcher struggle. Then use that judgment in a determination as to whether or not to take a pitcher out of a game. Not how many times he has simply thrown a pitch.

Before pitch counts, there was also no such thing as 'Saving a bullpen'. The thought of modern day Managers is to leave in a pitcher, clearly struggling, to save their bullpen. Tyler Lyons was left in to save the Cardinals bullpen Monday night and he was on the disabled list Tuesday morning.
The many arms in the bullpen are saved by the one struggling arm on the mound.
It makes no sense at all.
Especially in a 17-5 game where Yadier Molina could have been used to throw an inning for St. Louis.
Pitchers are left in games for all the wrong reasons now. Pitch counts and bullpen should be secondary to a tiring, struggling pitcher. Instead, it's the reverse.
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Outlaw » Wed May 14, 2014 9:10 am

Jose Cisneros to have TJ.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed May 14, 2014 9:37 am

Roger Martin and I were talking the other day. We both agreed that we could not remember seeing so many 0-2 pitches being hit for home runs. And, if not home runs, how many 0-2 pitches are getting hit hard, period.
This may come back to the pitch count as well. Starters are not obliged to waste a pitch or throw out of the strike zone. Whether a pitch is called a ball or strike, that pitch still counts towards the end of the game for the Starter.

Six of Jose Abreu's homers have come with two strikes on him. Two of them, with an 0-2 count.
Chris Davis hit 53 homers last year. Only two, with 0-2 counts.

If anybody has the stats on how many balls are thrown on an 0-2 pitch this year compared to previous years, I'd love to see them. I'd also like to see total batting average and such on 0-2 counts.
It seems as if pitchers want to make that pitch count now and if missing his zone, he pays the price.
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Roger Dorn » Wed May 14, 2014 9:49 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:Roger Martin and I were talking the other day. We both agreed that we could not remember seeing so many 0-2 pitches being hit for home runs. And, if not home runs, how many 0-2 pitches are getting hit hard, period.
This may come back to the pitch count as well. Starters are not obliged to waste a pitch or throw out of the strike zone. Whether a pitch is called a ball or strike, that pitch still counts towards the end of the game for the Starter.

Six of Jose Abreu's homers have come with two strikes on him. Two of them, with an 0-2 count.
Chris Davis hit 53 homers last year. Only two, with 0-2 counts.

If anybody has the stats on how many balls are thrown on an 0-2 pitch this year compared to previous years, I'd love to see them. I'd also like to see total batting average and such on 0-2 counts.
It seems as if pitchers want to make that pitch count now and if missing his zone, he pays the price.
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#e ... extended=0

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Teufel Hunden » Wed May 14, 2014 9:54 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:Roger Martin and I were talking the other day. We both agreed that we could not remember seeing so many 0-2 pitches being hit for home runs. And, if not home runs, how many 0-2 pitches are getting hit hard, period.
This may come back to the pitch count as well. Starters are not obliged to waste a pitch or throw out of the strike zone. Whether a pitch is called a ball or strike, that pitch still counts towards the end of the game for the Starter.

Six of Jose Abreu's homers have come with two strikes on him. Two of them, with an 0-2 count.
Chris Davis hit 53 homers last year. Only two, with 0-2 counts.

If anybody has the stats on how many balls are thrown on an 0-2 pitch this year compared to previous years, I'd love to see them. I'd also like to see total batting average and such on 0-2 counts.
It seems as if pitchers want to make that pitch count now and if missing his zone, he pays the price.
I would guess the 0-2 HR's is more of a product of many current players not changing their hitting approach with two strikes. As a result strike outs are way up for free swingers.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Captain Hook » Wed May 14, 2014 10:10 am

The MLB Network Roundtable referenced above will now re-air on SATURDAY, MAY 17 at 12 PM ET

Here is the intro originally sent out for the show


Expert Panel Headlines MLB Network Roundtable: The Pitching Dilemma

On Widespread Pitching Injuries in MLB This Season

Bob Costas Moderates Panel Discussion with Dr. David Altchek, Tom House, Jim Kaat, John Smoltz & Tom Verducci


Exclusive One-on-One Interview with Dr. James Andrews & Costas

Covers the Current Prevalence of Elbow Injuries in Youth Baseball

May 8, 2014 – With 17 Major Leaguers having undergone Tommy John surgery so far this year, MLB Network assembled an expert panel to examine the prevalence of elbow injuries among MLB pitchers and what it means for the future of the game. In MLB Network Roundtable presented by Delta Airlines: The Pitching Dilemma, Bob Costas moderates a roundtable discussion with Hospital for Special Surgery Co-Chief of Sports Medicine and Shoulder Service Dr. David Altchek; pitching expert Tom House; Jim Kaat, who pitched more than 4,500 innings and 180 complete games in his 25-year career; 1996 NL Cy Young Award winner John Smoltz, who had Tommy John surgery in 2000 and finished his career as the only pitcher with 200 wins and 150 saves; and MLB Network insider Tom Verducci, who has covered the topic extensively.

Costas also hosts an exclusive one-on-one interview with orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews, one of the foremost authorities on Tommy John surgery, to discuss his latest research on the biggest risk factors for elbow injuries among young pitchers before they reach the Major League level.
Last edited by Captain Hook on Wed May 14, 2014 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed May 14, 2014 10:20 am

On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed May 14, 2014 10:31 am

Teufel Hunden wrote:
DOUGHBOYS wrote:Roger Martin and I were talking the other day. We both agreed that we could not remember seeing so many 0-2 pitches being hit for home runs. And, if not home runs, how many 0-2 pitches are getting hit hard, period.
This may come back to the pitch count as well. Starters are not obliged to waste a pitch or throw out of the strike zone. Whether a pitch is called a ball or strike, that pitch still counts towards the end of the game for the Starter.

Six of Jose Abreu's homers have come with two strikes on him. Two of them, with an 0-2 count.
Chris Davis hit 53 homers last year. Only two, with 0-2 counts.

If anybody has the stats on how many balls are thrown on an 0-2 pitch this year compared to previous years, I'd love to see them. I'd also like to see total batting average and such on 0-2 counts.
It seems as if pitchers want to make that pitch count now and if missing his zone, he pays the price.
I would guess the 0-2 HR's is more of a product of many current players not changing their hitting approach with two strikes. As a result strike outs are way up for free swingers.
Possibly.
Before pitch counts, 0-2 pitches were generally well off the plate. Announcers called them waste pitches. The pitchers thinking was that if missing by inches, the pitch may nick a corner, but never be over the heart of the plate.
Now it seems, pitchers are being more bold on 0-2 pitches and mistakes are being hit.
This, in a count where the batter should be retired a majority of the time.
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Joe Sambito » Wed May 14, 2014 2:19 pm

Bottom of 1:
Giants first. Blanco walked on a full count. Pence homered to right on a 0-2 count, Blanco scored. Posey flied out to left fielder J.Upton. Sandoval singled to center. Morse walked on a full count, Sandoval to second. Colvin struck out. B.Crawford singled to left, Sandoval scored, Morse to second.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Outlaw » Wed May 14, 2014 5:05 pm

Perez gone- TJ Surgery recommended. I guess Dough had inside info on this one...

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Outlaw » Thu May 15, 2014 8:02 am

For Rochester (Wash.) baseball coach Jerry Striegel, why fix something that ain’t broke?
Striegel went with starting pitcher Dylan Fosnacht for 14 innings in a marathon, 17-inning game against LaCenter that Rochester won 1-0 on Tuesday. Fosnacht reported on Twitter that he threw 194 pitches in the contest, striking out 17 batters.

The catcher who caught the this kid then came into pitch the rest of the game.

Quote below from the kid's Twitter:

Dylan Fosnacht @DFosnacht5
"People might criticize me throwing 14 innings, but I'm going to do whatever it takes to win"

He actually seems like a nice kid based on his twitter comments so far... but What was the coach thinking?

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by BK METS » Thu May 15, 2014 8:16 am

Outlaw wrote:For Rochester (Wash.) baseball coach Jerry Striegel, why fix something that ain’t broke?
Striegel went with starting pitcher Dylan Fosnacht for 14 innings in a marathon, 17-inning game against LaCenter that Rochester won 1-0 on Tuesday. Fosnacht reported on Twitter that he threw 194 pitches in the contest, striking out 17 batters.

The catcher who caught the this kid then came into pitch the rest of the game.

Quote below from the kid's Twitter:

Dylan Fosnacht @DFosnacht5
"People might criticize me throwing 14 innings, but I'm going to do whatever it takes to win"

He actually seems like a nice kid based on his twitter comments so far... but What was the coach thinking?
You seem to be with guy with the info. Do you happen to know how many elbow surgeries there were when nearly every starting pitcher pitched multiple complete games every year and pitch counts that were astronomical and not even utilized? Anyone who thinks that pitch counts and over using pitchers is the reason for all of the injuries, history wipes out that theory. It's just the opposite.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu May 15, 2014 8:23 am

Outlaw wrote:For Rochester (Wash.) baseball coach Jerry Striegel, why fix something that ain’t broke?
Striegel went with starting pitcher Dylan Fosnacht for 14 innings in a marathon, 17-inning game against LaCenter that Rochester won 1-0 on Tuesday. Fosnacht reported on Twitter that he threw 194 pitches in the contest, striking out 17 batters.

The catcher who caught the this kid then came into pitch the rest of the game.

Quote below from the kid's Twitter:

Dylan Fosnacht @DFosnacht5
"People might criticize me throwing 14 innings, but I'm going to do whatever it takes to win"

He actually seems like a nice kid based on his twitter comments so far... but What was the coach thinking?
He was probably thinking that pitch counts do not work in preventing arm injury.
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by TParsons » Thu May 15, 2014 8:35 am

Outlaw wrote:For Rochester (Wash.) baseball coach Jerry Striegel, why fix something that ain’t broke?
Striegel went with starting pitcher Dylan Fosnacht for 14 innings in a marathon, 17-inning game against LaCenter that Rochester won 1-0 on Tuesday. Fosnacht reported on Twitter that he threw 194 pitches in the contest, striking out 17 batters.

The catcher who caught the this kid then came into pitch the rest of the game.

Quote below from the kid's Twitter:

Dylan Fosnacht @DFosnacht5
"People might criticize me throwing 14 innings, but I'm going to do whatever it takes to win"

He actually seems like a nice kid based on his twitter comments so far... but What was the coach thinking?
Kid has to be on PEDs, right?

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Teufel Hunden » Thu May 15, 2014 9:03 am

He actually seems like a nice kid based on his twitter comments so far... but What was the coach thinking?[/quote]
You seem to be with guy with the info. Do you happen to know how many elbow surgeries there were when nearly every starting pitcher pitched multiple complete games every year and pitch counts that were astronomical and not even utilized? Anyone who thinks that pitch counts and over using pitchers is the reason for all of the injuries, history wipes out that theory. It's just the opposite.[/quote]

You do realize that we did not have the ability to do modern surgeries in the "good old days" don't you? So not sure what you hope to accomplish by comparing current surgery numbers vs past. Players have been injuring their throwing arms since game was invented 150+ years ago. Their option was to stop playing or play through injury. In most cases the players kept the injury to themselves. Better to play hurt for 6 months/year and make good money than tell the team and risk selling insurance full-time instead of just in the off-season.

It is amusing that some of you think you have the answer to this problem when the entirety of MLB cannot solve the riddle. If it were just 1-2 poorly managed teams like Seattle or KC that were impacted maybe we could write it off as ignorance. But, every team seems to be hampered by same problem, and they have applied tremendous resources to solving issue with little to no success.

Perhaps, the arm issues are not preventable. The combination of violent unnatural motion, repetition, genetics and other factors make surgery a certainty for some players.

Of course, maybe in 20 years we will understand genetics enough that those predisposed to injury will show up in MLB stats. Just what I need another column in excel to factor in to player evaluations.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Captain Hook » Thu May 15, 2014 9:13 am

Teufel Hunden wrote:
It is amusing that some of you think you have the answer to this problem when the entirety of MLB cannot solve the riddle.
The answers are not so difficult but the implementation of them is nigh on impossible

IF every coach involved at the earliest levels of organized baseball was there to teach and organize and help and not obsessed themselves with winning thus recognition or afraid of the screams of parents there would be a chance BUT the parents also need to see little league etc as a healthy athletic game for their children not a tryout for the next scout to drop by the fields.

And we need to get a lot of those young kids who think they are auditioning for scout teams and travel teams OFF PEDS and other things they shouldn't be introducing to immature young bodies.

Kids need to go back to playing baseball (others sports too) because it is fun and they want to learn/share/compete not please their overwrought parents or catch a scout's eye or audition for an offer from a better high school or college

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu May 15, 2014 9:16 am

Pitch counts come from the devil himself. Well....agents...and that's the same thing. :lol:
In trying to protect their investments the opposite has happened.
But this isn't a post to rid baseball of pitch counts. I believe that pitch counts are entrenched in baseball. It'll take individuals with balls to change it.
There aren't many of those types in the game.

So, since we have pitch counts, why do baseball folks still live in a box?
Everyday, starting pitchers are named, they throw 100 or so pitches, then bullpens are called in to finish games.
Why does it have to be this way?
Tradition.
Of course, once upon a time, Starters finished games.
That tradition has passed.
So why not change to allow for that change?

Right now, Managers trust their Starter to pitch through lineups. If getting outs, they will pitch through a lineup at least three times.
Starters are trusted at the beginnings and middle of games, less so at the end when pitch counts rise.
So, here's my thought.
Use set-up men to set up some Starters. Especially Starters like Salazar, Ventura, or others of that ilk who usually throw five or six innings.
Take for example Bryan Shaw of the Indians starts the game vs. Detroit and faces Kinsler, Hunter, Cabrera.
Then Atchison takes the second inning.
Salazar enters in the third inning.
If throwing well, Salazar conceivably could finish the game. A Manager's decision.
At the least, he'll hand the reins over to Allen or Axford if he is still their Closer.

The point being is that Managers and baseball people in general dislike thinking outside the box. It took over 100 years for shifts to come into play.
Starters are regarded as the long going and best pitchers. Why not have them more towards the back end of games than front end?
If asked now, whether I would want the game in the hands of Salazar pitching well after six innings or Axford, I'd take Salazar.
The way it is right now, Managers don't have that choice. By the time the real important part of games come, the Starter is gone.
Take Craig Kimbrel, the best Closer in the game.
If Mike Minor has thrown six innings and is entering the ninth inning pitching well, the Braves Manager can go with either pitcher. This decision can be based on who is coming up in the ninth inning, if Kimbrel is well-rested, or if wanting to ride the hot throwing Minor another inning.
It gives a Manager more options and has the 'Starter' throw more during the important part of games.

This is not a new idea. Several have talked about it. But, there isn't an organization who wants to implement it.
In Korea and Japan, it is an 'honor' being a starting pitcher.
Starting pitchers are paid more than other pitchers.
Agents would go ballistic in seeing their 'starting' pitchers throwing in the third or fourth innings.
But, they started it.
They're the ones that wanted limited pitches.
This would be a way of making certain that they would get what they wished for.
Moral of the story, of course being, be careful what you wish for.
You may get it.
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Teufel Hunden » Thu May 15, 2014 9:19 am

Captain Hook wrote:
Teufel Hunden wrote:
It is amusing that some of you think you have the answer to this problem when the entirety of MLB cannot solve the riddle.
The answers are not so difficult but the implementation of them is nigh on impossible

IF every coach involved at the earliest levels of organized baseball was there to teach and organize and help and not obsessed themselves with winning thus recognition or afraid of the screams of parents there would be a chance BUT the parents also need to see little league etc as a healthy athletic game for their children not a tryout for the next scout to drop by the fields.

And we need to get a lot of those young kids who think they are auditioning for scout teams and travel teams OFF PEDS and other things they shouldn't be introducing to immature young bodies.

Kids need to go back to playing baseball (others sports too) because it is fun and they want to learn/share/compete not please their overwrought parents or catch a scout's eye or audition for an offer from a better high school or college
I agree, that the factors you mention play a part. But if they were the "answer" then how do you explain the injuries that occurred prior to these factors? Players damaged their arms when the game was played in cow pastures by touring teams.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Outlaw » Thu May 15, 2014 9:43 am

In response to Alan's ? No I do not Alan, all I know is something has changed. What I can remember is that there were not a lot of arm surgeries period. Pitchers would pitch with sore arms, at least that's what all the older ones say. I agree with all this pitch count BS. That being said, I have coached for many years at various levels, one rule I always had and one thing i always criticized other coaches for doing was bringing in a catcher who had caught already in the game to pitch. Supposedly the catcher in this game, not only finished the 1st game, but then threw 7 innings in the 2nd game the same day. The coaches and the parents are the adults, when they let the kids do what they want, they are foolish. And therein is the problem, a lot of parents have no idea what their Stud pitching sons are doing.

I have my own theories as to why the pitching injury epidemic is occurring, but it's probably a combination of many factors.
The biggest thing I cannot understand or explain is how for a 100 years good HS age pitchers would throw in the low 80's, a few could touch 90 or so, but how just in the last 15 years are they able to throw in the mid 90's and not just a few, but a lot of them. The typical kids size, height, weight really hasn't changed since baseball started, how are so many attaining that speed?

The problem that exists today is, if people, teams, fans, coaches, experts all think Pitch counts are BS, and we just threw them (pitch counts) out the window, someone has to explain how today's pitchers could hold up and throw more. They cant even throw 80 pitches without getting tired, losing it, hurting their arms? I don't have the answers, no one does, yet, but the fact remains these guys are extremely fragile and why is it? I think it has something to do with their arms (elbows, wrists, shoulders, muscles and ligaments) being damaged sometime between 10-18 yrs old. Kids can and do add muscle, bulk and strength to their arms, but internal structures like tendons, ligaments, rotator cuff, they still grow at a normal rate. At least that is what the medical experts say.
Another thing I think is kids do not throw enough, when they are not pitching, so all their arm is used for is high stress game action and bullpens. Just play catch is what I say. My son and i would play catch in the back yard every day from the time he was 5 all the way through HS. He was always a pitcher and never had a sore arm. Many times we would throw 200 times to each other in like 15 minutes. The difference being, playing catch was a different motion, or combination of different motions, short arming from short distances to more over the top from longer distances. Dads these days drop their kids off with a pitching coach and the kid then throws a 75 pitch bullpen and nothing in between other than games. Kids also do not run anymore, they hate it, doesn't matter whether they are athletes or not. Pitchers who do not run and build their legs, they become pitchers who just throw with their arms, they do not allow their lower half to help generate velocity, which is just another part of dilemma, how is It they can throw so hard, so young - I don't have answers to that.

Whatever the old school way pitchers developed prior to the early 90's needs to be revisited or looked at. It allowed pitchers in the big leagues to throw 250 inning every year, complete games, not worry about pitch counts, etc... The game we see today is totally different and no one really knows why. Nolan Ryan tried to change the culture with the Rangers about IP's pitch counts, but he got no where. The rangers never really implemented his ideas and philosophy and probably did not want to either. I suspect that the pendulum will swing back sometime in the future, because right now pitching injuries and arm injuries are becoming an epidemic at all levels of baseball.

I was talking with Dave Stieb's brother Steve last year at his sons college game, he was a catcher in pro ball for quite sometime, and we were talking about this very subject. He said his brother pitched almost his entire MLB career with a sore arm. He said they both believed in the theory, you just throw through it. As the games would go on and the arm got loose, the arm wouldn't hurt much at all. He also said he would throw a lot between starts too, not bullpens, but just throw. He was saying organizations these days have no idea on how to develop pitchers, all these "new" theories and ways are all BS. He said him and his son play catch every day, even though hes not a pitcher and the kid has a cannon for an arm, even though hes on the small side.

No easy answers to any of these questions and as for fantasy, its now become a total crapshoot with pitchers. Every day owners in the NFBC wake up and see one of their pitchers gone and think to themselves well that sucks, who's on the waiver wire, and then they see not much, and then lament about the injury factor. I've looked at some teams rosters and its amazing how many teams are starting DL guys. Some teams got no one on the bench that is not on the DL or maybe 1-2 players who are not. And it just not pitchers either. Baseball players have become very fragile highly paid athletes.

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Captain Hook » Thu May 15, 2014 9:54 am

Very Good post

The throwing - hell just playing for the kids is important but NOT for eleven+ months a year like the fast tracked pitchers are doing now (when whether permits so certainly in CA and mostly FLA)

I touched on this as did some panel members on the MLB Network special - you can read this if interested
http://www.mastersball.com/index.php?op ... 1400168743

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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Outlaw » Thu May 15, 2014 10:30 am

Captain Hook wrote:Very Good post

The throwing - hell just playing for the kids is important but NOT for eleven+ months a year like the fast tracked pitchers are doing now (when whether permits so certainly in CA and mostly FLA)

I touched on this as did some panel members on the MLB Network special - you can read this if interested
http://www.mastersball.com/index.php?op ... 1400168743
That was an excellent story and recap of the show Perry, that you wrote. Articles like that will and should get seen by a lot of parents. The only other thing I'll mention and its not really being talked about by anyone at any level of discussion is the PEDS use, not even the so called experts. Its like they just continue to avoid it.

I've written a little in the past about my sons friend and HS teammate, who ere both SP's on their HS team My son threw 87-89, FB, changes, knuckle ball, and occasion curve. The other kid threw 95-98 his senior year with nasty splitter and slider, no change. Both about the same size, 6-3 -190. At age 16 they both threw around 80-84. By 17 the other kid was 87-90 and by 18 in the mid/high 90's. Needless to say, the other kid had 40 guns on him at every game his senior year. My son barely a look. No biggie, I understood it. What I couldn't answer for my son when he asked was how his friend got to 95 and he didn't. He would say to me, look at how big his arms have gotten and I would say well he must workout a lot more than you, plus he has a strength and conditioning coach. So at the end of the Sr year season, everyone knew the other kid was being looked at as a top 10 pick overall in the MLB draft, my son says to me, Hey Dad, did you know he does Roids and I said to him, well I suspected it. He says to me, I know for fact he does and I said to him, have you and he said no, you would kill me if I did. So the kid goes number 3 overall in the Nation out of HS, signs the same day he was drafted for over 3M and blows out his rotator cuff 3 months later in rookie ball. 3 more surgeries later he was done after 4 years of trying to pitch. I asked him a few years ago, why did you do it, he said everyone did it, learned about the PEDS at the Area code and showcase games, that's what all the "top" kids did. The thing is, the kid would've gotten to 95 probably without the PEDS, but he probably would've been 21-22 when that happened, not 18. Now he can throw maybe 80 and my kid can pick up a ball at 28 and throw low 90's without even working out.

I've spoken to the kids pitching coach at the time (was for 4 years), who had pitched for Giants in the 80's and he told me, the kid hid the injury from the scouts and the Roids allowed him to keep throwing at a high level his Sr year. He knew something was up to, but there was nothing he could do about it, as the kid and his DAD had turned on him his Sr year when he started asking questions about the bulk and velocity increases. They didn't even have the decency to invite the pitching coach to the draft party or even call him. I called him and told him on draft day. So for those that think PEDS are not a big issue, I will articulate its a big part of the problem today in youth and pro ball. Parents and kids see the big $$$$ and the MLB teams are getting damaged goods when they draft these flame throwers.

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Captain Hook
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Captain Hook » Thu May 15, 2014 11:19 am

Totally agree on the PEDs

My wife's nephew plays on the travel/tournament teams - thank God he is not a pitcher BUT I sent a copy of my column to his mother who is very active in the schools and community telling her to record the show and then pass it around. Whatever small steps we can take anyplace are at least tiny first steps

TParsons
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by TParsons » Thu May 15, 2014 11:35 am

I'd love to see the empirical data that exists showing a direct relationship between steroid use and increased velocity for a pitcher. Please direct me to that study.

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Outlaw
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Re: Jose Fernandez Expected to Go on DL; MRI Scheduled

Post by Outlaw » Thu May 15, 2014 12:30 pm

TParsons wrote:I'd love to see the empirical data that exists showing a direct relationship between steroid use and increased velocity for a pitcher. Please direct me to that study.

There are lots of medical studies, research papers, doctors, coaches out on the internet that you can look at and talk about it. Also plenty of ex pitchers who talk about it, like Jason Grimsly, John Rocker, etc. You will not find the top pitchers ever talking about it for obvious reason.

Have a look at the Taylor Hooten foundation for more info on Kids and steroids.

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