Public DC's and Fast/Slows

[KJ Duke]

We're thinking too much of ourselves, Kevin.
We're the old guard more than sharks.

Perhaps Dan, but even if I convince myself that my ROI drafting with you and Lowy and Edelman and all is the same as a league full of guys I don't know ... I'm getting the players I want deeper into the draft with the newbie group than the old guard group, and right or wrong those are the guys I want to draft !!! So the net result is the same, less DCs.

[DDK]

The hope is that this will be appealing to the vast majority (and I believe it will). So that, in the end, the fast/slows are nearly the same makeup as they are now. When the majority switches over to this more enjoyable format the fast/slows won't consistently consist of "the old guard." But we won't know for sure until it plays out.

[KJ Duke]

The hope is that this will be appealing to the vast majority (and I believe it will). So that, in the end, the fast/slows are nearly the same makeup as they are now. When the majority switches over to this more enjoyable format the fast/slows won't consistently consist of "the old guard." But we won't know for sure until it plays out.

And who fills the slow slows, the worst players? I don't want those leagues lumped into the overall contest. Gekko will jump in every one of them under one of his forty aliases to get an edge on taking down the overall. Tell me that won't happen, Dan.

[DDK]

The hope is that this will be appealing to the vast majority (and I believe it will). So that, in the end, the fast/slows are nearly the same makeup as they are now. When the majority switches over to this more enjoyable format the fast/slows won't consistently consist of "the old guard." But we won't know for sure until it plays out.

And who fills the slow slows, the worst players? I don't want those leagues lumped into the overall contest. Gekko will jump in every one of them under one of his forty aliases to get an edge on taking down the overall. Tell me that won't happen, Dan.

I don't know how, exactly, it will play out. You may be correct but no one can say that for sure. Perhaps, in the long run, there will be overalls for each category in proportion to the number of participants. Just thinking out loud. I am only in this conversation because I MUCH prefer the format and would like to try whatever is necessary to make it work.

[Teufel Hunden]

Tell me again why each owner cannot have a 24 chess clock to use for entire draft? If an owner uses their entire 24 clock their remaining picks are all 1 minute limit.

Every draft would then last a maximum of 15 days and no one owner would be able to hold the rest of the owners hostage. It would encourage owners using auto and being active participants, yet allow for emergencies and sleep.

I am currently in a draft where #1 slot is intentionally burning 16 hours (he posted in chat that he was punishing owners that complained about delay). The draft started yesterday, obviously this does not bode well for the other 14 owners as we are likely going to suffer through another 3 weeks of one immature/inconsiderate owner teaching 14 other owners how powerful they are.

I have completed 3 DC's so far and drafting 4 others right now. Had intended to draft another 6-7 over next 1.5 months. As a result of the exploitable nature of current format I will not be doing any more drafts until the fast drafts start up.

[carl_laslo]

Tell me again why each owner cannot have a 24 chess clock to use for entire draft? If an owner uses their entire 24 clock their remaining picks are all 1 minute limit.

Every draft would then last a maximum of 15 days and no one owner would be able to hold the rest of the owners hostage. It would encourage owners using auto and being active participants, yet allow for emergencies and sleep.

I am currently in a draft where #1 slot is intentionally burning 16 hours (he posted in chat that he was punishing owners that complained about delay). The draft started yesterday, obviously this does not bode well for the other 14 owners as we are likely going to suffer through another 3 weeks of one immature/inconsiderate owner teaching 14 other owners how powerful they are.

I have completed 3 DC's so far and drafting 4 others right now. Had intended to draft another 6-7 over next 1.5 months. As a result of the exploitable nature of current format I will not be doing any more drafts until the fast drafts start up.

In the same draft. He is ridiculous. He's going to hold us up to spite us. Just absolute torture.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Tell me again why each owner cannot have a 24 chess clock to use for entire draft? If an owner uses their entire 24 clock their remaining picks are all 1 minute limit.

Every draft would then last a maximum of 15 days and no one owner would be able to hold the rest of the owners hostage. It would encourage owners using auto and being active participants, yet allow for emergencies and sleep.

I am currently in a draft where #1 slot is intentionally burning 16 hours (he posted in chat that he was punishing owners that complained about delay). The draft started yesterday, obviously this does not bode well for the other 14 owners as we are likely going to suffer through another 3 weeks of one immature/inconsiderate owner teaching 14 other owners how powerful they are.

I have completed 3 DC's so far and drafting 4 others right now. Had intended to draft another 6-7 over next 1.5 months. As a result of the exploitable nature of current format I will not be doing any more drafts until the fast drafts start up.

I have reached out to him and asked him not to do this.


In the same draft. He is ridiculous. He's going to hold us up to spite us. Just absolute torture.

[KJ Duke]

I have reached out to him and asked him not to do this.

Ban him, he is stealing money out of your pocket.

[Lunatic]

I was in the second Fast/Slow which ended today. They were not all names I knew; however, with the MOUTH there, it went pretty well. There was some frustrating moments but all-in-all, a great success. I thank Capt Crunch for putting it together. Did I mention I drafted Kuroda in like round 26 That said, a great bunch of guys and I believe we knocked off 12-13 rounds last night.

I am currently doing a draft with Chip Magner and it started on 1/14; we are now in round 31; I always say I will never compete in another true SLOWWW Draft; It was Chip who dragged me in I will give another Fast/Slow a go in the future.

Thanks again to Dorian for setting up the second draft.

[Bama]

I'm no business guy, but do know that a bad customer's money is as good as the good customer.
And truth be told, this fella is not a bad customer. He just wants to draft like the rest of us, but his job or something else gets in his way.
If he were in a draft with names called out on the Boards, he would feel right at home.
A separation of fast/slow and a public DC would give him a choice, as it would for the rest of us.

Here is my problem Dan, if you create separate 4-hour and 8-hour drafts, and I'm not being hypothetical here ...

1) I am going to assume the 4-hour has better drafters and thus my ROI is worse. So I don't want to play many of them.
2) I am going to assume the 8-hour has worse drafters and thus my ROI is better. But this also gives license to the worst drafters to be even slower, so I don't want to play many of them either. I want the same mix of players in all leagues.

Net result, I play less DCs. Not joking, that will be the end result for me. To me it creates two separate contests lumped into one, and the more enjoyable one will be harder to win. I hate that solution.

I've done 9 or 10 DCs already this year and I can tell you unequivocally that it is easier to get the players I want in the slowest ones. So if Greg follows through on this, my draft spigot is either shut down for the season or wayyy slowed down.

That was what I was trying to say but KJ so much better with words than me.

[EWeaver]

I have reached out to him and asked him not to do this.

Ban him, he is stealing money out of your pocket.

plot twist...per this drafter, he does 40 NFFC leagues per year...but is in his first NFBC draft (I think he's being truthful-ish on both fronts) - so the money isn't that easily sorted...but he's definitely a cool guy, bro. He say's "bro" a lot. Come at me, bro. Cool story, Bro. You 'mirin, bro? I have rights, bro. Read the rules, bro.

Props to Greg, he sorted it out, and the draft is back on track.

[EA Sports]

I'm not in favor of having multiple choices for DC signups, all that does is lump the same people into the same drafts. My recommendation would be:

#1 • Post a simple, concise paragraph at the bottom of each DC signup post on the Boards regarding draft etiquette. Also post it at the top of the DC list of rules. I'd be happy to write it subject to your approval and editing as you see fit. Keep this in effect until #2 can be accomplished, and after #2 have a modified version of it still there.

#2 • Pause the clock from midnight to 8am eastern time, but allow picks to be made without the clock moving. Have a 3-hour clock for all drafts from 8am to midnight, eastern. If an East Coast guy goes to bed at 10pm and he's on the clock at midnight, he'll still have 1 hour left when the clock resumes, so he's got 'til 9am before a timeout. On the West Coast the clock would start at 5am, but that still gives us until 8am worst case to make a pick.

I think this would solve at least 90% of the slow draft complaints and result in more leagues. Very few picks take more than 3 hours during the daytime ... and when they go over 3 hours people get annoyed.

^^^+1^^^

[carl_laslo]

I'm not in favor of having multiple choices for DC signups, all that does is lump the same people into the same drafts. My recommendation would be:

#1 • Post a simple, concise paragraph at the bottom of each DC signup post on the Boards regarding draft etiquette. Also post it at the top of the DC list of rules. I'd be happy to write it subject to your approval and editing as you see fit. Keep this in effect until #2 can be accomplished, and after #2 have a modified version of it still there.

#2 • Pause the clock from midnight to 8am eastern time, but allow picks to be made without the clock moving. Have a 3-hour clock for all drafts from 8am to midnight, eastern. If an East Coast guy goes to bed at 10pm and he's on the clock at midnight, he'll still have 1 hour left when the clock resumes, so he's got 'til 9am before a timeout. On the West Coast the clock would start at 5am, but that still gives us until 8am worst case to make a pick.

I think this would solve at least 90% of the slow draft complaints and result in more leagues. Very few picks take more than 3 hours during the daytime ... and when they go over 3 hours people get annoyed.

^^^+1^^^

I wish our #1 slot drafter only took 3 hours today...he was on the clock for 11 hours. How does that make people feel?

I think the chess clock would solve so many of these problems. Bad days happen, but they can't happen every day.

[Yah Mule]

Tell me again why each owner cannot have a 24 chess clock to use for entire draft? If an owner uses their entire 24 clock their remaining picks are all 1 minute limit.

Every draft would then last a maximum of 15 days and no one owner would be able to hold the rest of the owners hostage. It would encourage owners using auto and being active participants, yet allow for emergencies and sleep.

I truly believe this would solve the problem entirely. I think you would probably even see the competitive nature of NFBC drafters come out as people tried to have the shortest overall draft time.

[DOUGHBOYS]

There is one technical thing I'd like to see done.
And I don't know if it's possible from an IT point of view.
I find the e-mails for each pick annoying. They do nothing in letting me know I'm up or not. Really, just a bunch of emails to delete and I've talked with Greg about a way to give us the choice whether we receive these or not.
Instead of these e-mails, wouldn't it be better when after drafter one picks, an auto text is sent to drafter two, and after drafter two picks, an autotext to drafter three, etc.
I'm not a tech guy, but this would certainly be a step in the right direction.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Tell me again why each owner cannot have a 24 chess clock to use for entire draft? If an owner uses their entire 24 clock their remaining picks are all 1 minute limit.

Every draft would then last a maximum of 15 days and no one owner would be able to hold the rest of the owners hostage. It would encourage owners using auto and being active participants, yet allow for emergencies and sleep.

I am currently in a draft where #1 slot is intentionally burning 16 hours (he posted in chat that he was punishing owners that complained about delay). The draft started yesterday, obviously this does not bode well for the other 14 owners as we are likely going to suffer through another 3 weeks of one immature/inconsiderate owner teaching 14 other owners how powerful they are.

I have completed 3 DC's so far and drafting 4 others right now. Had intended to draft another 6-7 over next 1.5 months. As a result of the exploitable nature of current format I will not be doing any more drafts until the fast drafts start up.

I was in favor of this at one time. And, it sounds good on the surface. The trouble is, we do anything to get an edge.
And there will be those that play 'A Clock Game' instead of drafting.
A fellow on the west coast may hold a pick while on the clock. He does this because the east coaster, in good faith, asks him to pick since he'll be going to bed shortly.
The PST'er picks after the EST'er goes to bed and WHAM! The easterner is hit with a six hour penalty.
The easterner did everything correctly and is the player that got 6-8 hours taken off his clock.
If this happens 3/4 times, does that easterner wanna play again?
Probably not.

And what about the slow drafter? The fella that can't draft much during the day.
The fella that needs more than 24 hours.
He is totally out of the game? Tough luck?
Some folks have busy schedules or no access for long periods. It doesn't make them bad fellas or bad drafters.
The current system works for all. New rules should not work to the exclusion of anybody wanting to play.
The majority like me, enjoy a faster paced draft. At the same time, I don't want anybody that wants to draft to be shut out only because of bad circumstances.

[Teufel Hunden]

I was in favor of this at one time. And, it sounds good on the surface. The trouble is, we do anything to get an edge.
And there will be those that play 'A Clock Game' instead of drafting.
A fellow on the west coast may hold a pick while on the clock. He does this because the east coaster, in good faith, asks him to pick since he'll be going to bed shortly.
The PST'er picks after the EST'er goes to bed and WHAM! The easterner is hit with a six hour penalty.
The easterner did everything correctly and is the player that got 6-8 hours taken off his clock.
If this happens 3/4 times, does that easterner wanna play again?
Probably not.

No doubt some owners will try to manipulate the clock to their advantage. With the the discussed much improved multi list auto draft system in place (assuming this upgrade ever occurs) I think these would be rare occurrences though.

And what about the slow drafter? The fella that can't draft much during the day.
The fella that needs more than 24 hours.
He is totally out of the game? Tough luck?
Some folks have busy schedules or no access for long periods. It doesn't make them bad fellas or bad drafters.
The current system works for all. New rules should not work to the exclusion of anybody wanting to play.
The majority like me, enjoy a faster paced draft. At the same time, I don't want anybody that wants to draft to be shut out only because of bad circumstances.[/quote]

If the current system worked for all we would not be having this conversation. Ultimately, as a business NFBC will have to decide where they will make the most money. IMO 90-95% of their DC drafters would prefer a draft that takes 8-12 days and cannot be held hostage by one owner. If such a system does not work for 5-10% then that is unfortunate, but most money making enterprises are wise to cater to the many and not the few.

[DOUGHBOYS]

This thread has taken off in many directions. Complaining about slow drafters, suggestions about one, three, four, eight, 24 hour clocks. The clock is not the villian. It really isn't.
And everybody knows that if the clock is changed, we are going to have an incredible amount of draft stoppages from folks saying they didn't know their clocks would run out and Greg/Tom will have to change players more than they do now.
And if we have a 24 hour clock, drafters will even be asking for more time on their clocks.

The villian is the meshing of every drafter. I know a dentist that used to play in a lot of NFBC DC's. He doesn't anymore because of the criticism of taking two to four hours when swamped at work. There's a lawyer who goes to court for morning and afternoon sessions. He doesn't play anymore.
I got a PM last night. A heartfelt PM from a player who played in the Main Event as recently as last year. Now, he can't/won't enter a DC because he is swamped at work. And I will share that letter with y'all when he gives me permission.

Fellas, we are only thinking about how to make the draft better for us, the guy who likes a faster pace.
There has to be a game for EVERYBODY. Heck, sometimes when I'm real busy, I prefer a public draft over a fast/slow.
I can tell you that these slow/slow drafters are good fantasy players.
To equate slowness with a bad drafter is plain wrong.
The dentist and the fellow I got a PM from have played in the Main Events before. The only difference is the time in their personal lives. When getting time, they are studying like you and me.
A choice is the best option. If not that, the status quo will have to do.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Here is the PM I promised....

I was going to add to the boards, but too many comments came in to make it worth anything.
After a 55 hr week that isn't over yet, a draft of 1 round or less a day would be a welcome diversion for the 5-15 minutes a day it would take to check morning, lunch and night. My circumstances put me in the 5% or less range that legitimately won't (not can't) check their picks during the day (I'm assuming our pal is in a similar boat at this time of year for certain accountants, which is why I never see him on the DC lists), and because of my respect for fellow NFBC'ers, won't sign up. Most that are slow don't care, or in some cases like you identified, don't know any better when they sign up.
I appreciate the thread once again to try and get like-minded folks together, not only for fast DC's, but slow ones as well. KJ was right in that the minority doesn't get recognized, and rightfully shouldn't be, so I am content not doing DC drafts and appreciative of the auctions Andy is running to get me somewhat ready for the bigger events in March. I know this was your brainchild last year, so appreciation goes out to you as well.
Without the DC drafts, my very short breaks during days, including your so eloquent dump commentary , are spent reading the threads, most of the time looking for your topics and posts. Keep up the writing, which I as well as I'm sure many others, look forward to.

Bests,

[KJ Duke]

Here is the PM I promised....

I was going to add to the boards, but too many comments came in to make it worth anything.
After a 55 hr week that isn't over yet, a draft of 1 round or less a day would be a welcome diversion for the 5-15 minutes a day it would take to check morning, lunch and night. My circumstances put me in the 5% or less range that legitimately won't (not can't) check their picks during the day (I'm assuming our pal is in a similar boat at this time of year for certain accountants, which is why I never see him on the DC lists), and because of my respect for fellow NFBC'ers, won't sign up. Most that are slow don't care, or in some cases like you identified, don't know any better when they sign up.
I appreciate the thread once again to try and get like-minded folks together, not only for fast DC's, but slow ones as well. KJ was right in that the minority doesn't get recognized, and rightfully shouldn't be, so I am content not doing DC drafts and appreciative of the auctions Andy is running to get me somewhat ready for the bigger events in March. I know this was your brainchild last year, so appreciation goes out to you as well.
Without the DC drafts, my very short breaks during days, including your so eloquent dump commentary , are spent reading the threads, most of the time looking for your topics and posts. Keep up the writing, which I as well as I'm sure many others, look forward to.

Bests,

Dan, there's no reason to exclude Mr. Dentist from some draft enjoyment but I also think there's no reason to set-up a regularly-scheduled draft segment for them. If there really are 15 slow-slow guys that want to get together and draft, set up for a private league via the Boards as we've done with the specialty leagues that you and I run. Make it a $125 private DC like the auction we just did and see if there's enough demand to do a targeted 50-day draft.

And while we're doing that for a 1-off slow-slow, let's get some momentum for the overnight timeout with a 3-hour clock!

[MadCow Sez]

There is one technical thing I'd like to see done.
And I don't know if it's possible from an IT point of view.
I find the e-mails for each pick annoying. They do nothing in letting me know I'm up or not. Really, just a bunch of emails to delete and I've talked with Greg about a way to give us the choice whether we receive these or not.
Instead of these e-mails, wouldn't it be better when after drafter one picks, an auto text is sent to drafter two, and after drafter two picks, an autotext to drafter three, etc.
I'm not a tech guy, but this would certainly be a step in the right direction.

I'm digging this idea. The emails go to my home computer so I don't see them until I get....home. By then almost every one is OBE and just serves to clog my email delivery. I would opt out in a heart beat.

[Baseball Furies]

Greg, no one thinks you're an idiot first of all (at least not that you're aware of ), but you are over thinking this thing. Let's pilot the idea of a "Fast/Slow" DC game registration along with a couple of other options, and see how it goes. Nothing has to remain etched in stone. Forget the idea of messing with the clock because most of us all should know by now that this is no way going to be resolved by putting it in the hands of the IT guys that you have at your disposal at STATS. The most rapid fix for this is to create three categories of Draft Champions drafts to choose from with very specific guidelines that are expected of and mandatory for the participants for each under the sign-up and drop down menu for each respective contest, and on the thread announcing the sign up list for each: Express, Fast, and Traditional/Basic/Original/Classic or whatever you want to call the regular one we have now. People can choose from there based upon what appeals to them most in terms of the time and participation commitment to each format. Keep in mind, Greg, that we live in a world of instant gratification now when it comes to most things, and in this age of technology that we live in, we are obsessed by our mobile devices and the ability to play, surf, and communicate on them virtually instantaneously. This is one of the appeals of the daily game that you are discussing on another thread. There's the money and the gambling aspect of it, but the allure is there because it is now and immediate, and the format is enticing because it is. The vast majority of your players would be attracted even more to this format if they knew what it was like to draft in one of these in less than the average three plus weeks of time that they currently are taking, and would probably be inclined to draft in even more of them for many reasons. The quicker time aspect allows for your customers to potentially participate in more games than if they signed up for one that took nearly a month to complete. Even your "Classic" DC should have an established minimum limit of four rounds per participant per day. No matter what job someone has, this is entirely doable by everyone playing in this format even if they just did two picks in the morning, and two later in the evening. This would have these drafts being completed in about 12 days or so which is a happy compromise to the small minority who approach this game as if they were playing chess which I'm quite sure was never the intention when the format was created. The "DC Express" is quite self-explanatory: you don't sign up for this one unless you are prepared to sit down at your computer and bang out 750 picks in a few straight hours in one night. The clock is irrelevant because everyone knows the expectations going in and how the game works. The "Fast DC" would be an 8-10 round minimum per day with participants being expected to be highly committed and available over a four to five day period of time with high communication via chat and with the sharing of their cell numbers with the some or all of the rest of the group (unless they're so old, senile, decrepit, and stuck in the 1950's like Kenyon, Kleeman, and few other esteemed members of our senior community who happen to not have cell phones, but who can at least can prop themselves up long enough on their walkers or hospital beds for extended periods of time to make their picks on their Atari computers

The simplest actions are the most powerful,Greg, and the speed at which things flow is also power as well,so there is no harm making this quick and easy change to the system taking the "Field of Dreams" mentality here to see what happens rather than getting hung up in days or weeks of technical conversation and consideration and the usual paralysis by analysis with back and forth surveying of dozens of people. Just take into consideration what I and others have said, and go with it ASAP. I posted a simple thread about three weeks ago rolling out and promoting the "Fast/Slow" and not one, but THREE leagues filled and were banged out since then and they were all fun and enjoyable experiences for all. The last one was put together by a relative new-comer to the NFBC, and attracted a nice mix of veteran and less seasoned players to this format who would all do more of these if they were offered and would prefer a faster format for all of these if available. There is not a single person reading this who likes to be held hostage by one or two participants in the DC format who really have not come to play in the spirit of how these games were intended. Times change and so do the rules and the products offered as you have done since inception, and it's time to innovate this format to bring it to another level.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Correct Mike, the DC Express is now understood by all and anyone who enters that league knows that even at 1 minute per pick they are expected to be ready when it's their turn. We've grown the DC National Championship because of this addition, which once again was pushed to us by our customers. Now we have two easy-to-understand DC formats.

I agree that we'll add another format on Registration that is just as easy to understand. We can call it 4-Hour or FAST DC or whatever, but it will be a faster option than our 8-hour DCs. We've already discussed this internally and we can offer these on the boards before getting them on Registration, but we've already discussed adding this with IT on Registration and it's in the plans.

That being said, it's not getting done tomorrow, so I'll push this on the boards until we get it live on Registration. We are knee deep in the new Online Draft Room and have to get that done first. All of our programming resources are dedicated to getting that finished before the Online Championships and Satellite Leagues begin. But I'll push for this right after that and see if this helps things. I appreciate all of the input and having three DC options now hopefully will make things better.

And if anyone wants a Slow-Slow DC like Dan suggested, I'll create a Message Board thread for that one as well. I trust we'll do more than a round per day, but rather than lose those customers who can't be tied to a computer during the day we can also offer them an alternative. Let's see what happens. Thanks all. Once we get this FAST DC option on Registration and within our Rules, we'll have it each year going forward and for each sport. Thanks all.

[Yellow Ledbetters]

So Mike...let me get this straight. You think your long winded diatribes are welcome however Deadheadz posts are not? What make's your opinion, mine, or anyone else's more important than the next person. Some of the "veterans" really need to get over themselves. No one needs to earn your respect. I don't give a rat's ass if you like or respect me Everyone has equal rights. Sorry to hijack this thread but I call BS on people being told not to post on the message boards.

I apologize for posting in this thread but my thread was locked after Mike came in and acted like a jackass when no one was talking to him.

[Le Grand Orange]

There is one technical thing I'd like to see done.
And I don't know if it's possible from an IT point of view.
I find the e-mails for each pick annoying. They do nothing in letting me know I'm up or not. Really, just a bunch of emails to delete and I've talked with Greg about a way to give us the choice whether we receive these or not.
Instead of these e-mails, wouldn't it be better when after drafter one picks, an auto text is sent to drafter two, and after drafter two picks, an autotext to drafter three, etc.
I'm not a tech guy, but this would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Call me crazy Dan, but I actually like receiving these emails. If I'm out walking the dog and thinking about my next pick, it's helpful to know if the players I'm targeting are being drafted. Then I can figure out Plan B and be ready to pick when it's my turn without holding things up. I also like the dramatic aspect of checking to see if I'm dodging all the bullets to get my guy. Of course, I have no problem with adding the ability to opt out of these emails for those who actually have a life...