Let's revisit Friday lineup changes for P

[Greg Ambrosius]

If we were to do anything with pitchers, my hope is that it wouldn't involve the official MLB DL list. Hopefully we could figure out a process that allows owners to make the move without that stupid list from MLB.

Why can't we just allow owners to change out any pitcher on Friday who hasn't already pitched Monday through Thursday. I don't see why that wouldn't resolve all issues.

It would allow owners to swap out a pitcher who is DL'd after the Monday locks but before he pitches ala Cosart. It would also prevent owners searching for a loophole from streaming a 2-start pitcher away from a tough early week start while activating him for an easier late week start.

And all this done without relying on the MLB DL designation.

Wouldn't that address all the concerns?

That would probably be the solution if we were to program it that way. It basically would allow owners to replace someone injured before or during the week and replace him on the weekend if you had a pitching replacement on Reserve. But it would still allow owners to start a DL pitcher and replace him with a SP who had a tough matchup early in the week and an ideal matchup on the weekend. I guess that's not our worry, but it does still allow that, right?

[lrr]

If we were to do anything with pitchers, my hope is that it wouldn't involve the official MLB DL list. Hopefully we could figure out a process that allows owners to make the move without that stupid list from MLB.

Why can't we just allow owners to change out any pitcher on Friday who hasn't already pitched Monday through Thursday. I don't see why that wouldn't resolve all issues.

It would allow owners to swap out a pitcher who is DL'd after the Monday locks but before he pitches ala Cosart. It would also prevent owners searching for a loophole from streaming a 2-start pitcher away from a tough early week start while activating him for an easier late week start.

And all this done without relying on the MLB DL designation.

Wouldn't that address all the concerns?

1. I have a less desirable pitcher starting only Friday. I replace him on Friday with a two start pitcher who had a bad first matchup. There are always going to be shenanigans unless it is programmed well.

[DOUGHBOYS]

The idea has been brought up before. I'm for it. I can't remember why others are against it.

Let me put out a scenario...

I have...

Strasburg
Greinke
Hamels
T Wood
Hammel
Tillman
Gibson
Gregerson
Papelbon

On my Monday roster.
My bench has Niese and Quintana.

Srasburg, Greinke, Hamels, TWood, Hammel, Tillman, and Papelbon have pitched MON-THURS.
They get the P designation and cannot be moved on Friday.
I would, however, be able to move Gibson, Gregerson, Niese, and Quintana who have not yet thrown a pitch at my discretion

Is this streaming?
I don't think so.
We are just free to use somebody not used during the week on Friday.

[Rog]

I think the problem I saw before was somebody would do it on a tuesday or wed and it would of been fine if the pitcher didnt start until thursday.
A friday move needs to include being done on tuesday or wednesday or thursday without having it affected on Friday.
Does that make sense?
I am going to do the switch on tuesday for my pitcher that doesnt start until thursday(will the computer let me abuse the loop hole as we have all seen before?
I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

[Navel Lint]

The idea has been brought up before. I'm for it. I can't remember why others are against it.

Let me put out a scenario...

I have...

Strasburg
Greinke
Hamels
T Wood
Hammel
Tillman
Gibson
Gregerson
Papelbon

On my Monday roster.
My bench has Niese and Quintana.

Srasburg, Greinke, Hamels, TWood, Hammel, Tillman, and Papelbon have pitched MON-THURS.
They get the P designation and cannot be moved on Friday.
I would, however, be able to move Gibson, Gregerson, Niese, and Quintana who have not yet thrown a pitch at my discretion

Is this streaming?
I don't think so.
We are just free to use somebody not used during the week on Friday.

What happens if I make my Friday roster moves on Tues morning and then Gregerson pitches Thurs night. Can the system be programmed to account for that?

**Edit**
Looks like Roger had the same thought above and beat me to it.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I think the problem I saw before was somebody would do it on a tuesday or wed and it would of been fine if the pitcher didnt start until thursday.
A friday move needs to include being done on tuesday or wednesday or thursday without having it affected on Friday.
Does that make sense?
I am going to do the switch on tuesday for my pitcher that doesnt start until thursday(will the computer let me abuse the loop hole as we have all seen before?
I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

Ah yes, that was the problem some folks had with it.
Eased a little by the advance of technology since.
Most of us know daily when our pitchers have thrown.
Still, I can see how it would be a problem for some.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

And yes, it's not easy to program this to take into consideration every change made between Monday and Friday. Maybe it is, but those concerns and other loopholes are why this isn't as easy as it seems.

[Glenneration X]

If we were to do anything with pitchers, my hope is that it wouldn't involve the official MLB DL list. Hopefully we could figure out a process that allows owners to make the move without that stupid list from MLB.

Why can't we just allow owners to change out any pitcher on Friday who hasn't already pitched Monday through Thursday. I don't see why that wouldn't resolve all issues.

It would allow owners to swap out a pitcher who is DL'd after the Monday locks but before he pitches ala Cosart. It would also prevent owners searching for a loophole from streaming a 2-start pitcher away from a tough early week start while activating him for an easier late week start.

And all this done without relying on the MLB DL designation.

Wouldn't that address all the concerns?

That would probably be the solution if we were to program it that way. It basically would allow owners to replace someone injured before or during the week and replace him on the weekend if you had a pitching replacement on Reserve. But it would still allow owners to start a DL pitcher and replace him with a SP who had a tough matchup early in the week and an ideal matchup on the weekend. I guess that's not our worry, but it does still allow that, right?

You only allow a pitcher who hasn't pitched already in the week to be replaced by a pitcher who hasn't pitched already in the week. Sure, it limits options, but also limits "shenanigans".

I would also think this would be easily programmable. Right now the programing is flexible based upon the first game of the week for any specific team. For pitchers make it flexible based upon the first pitch he throws any specific week. Once that pitch is thrown, the player locks and can't be added or subtracted to the lineup.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

As such, this would eliminate any pitching changes for Friday.
A dl designation on Thursday or a pitch thrown on Thursday would thwart any NFBC'er who does their lineups on Tuesday or Wednesday.

[Glenneration X]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

As such, this would eliminate any pitching changes for Friday.
A dl designation on Thursday or a pitch thrown on Thursday would thwart any NFBC'er who does their lineups on Tuesday or Wednesday.

I disagree. There can't be many who play in a contest that requires the investment in time & money that it takes to play the NFBC, that isn't engaged enough to find a few moments during their very busy week to change out a Cosart if given the opportunity when still competitive in their leagues. If there are, they wouldn't be competitive very long.

This of course excludes the DC leagues where part of the appeal is the ability to be less engaged. However, this is easily rectified by allowing these moves in only FAAB leagues.

[Captain Hook]

I like the two lineup periods each week but have never fully embraced the "no pitcher changes" UNLESS it was because the system at the time couldn't separate legitmate DL changes. But we seem to be up to speed with STATS now handling the changes and I just don't see why a pitcher who is in our lineup and reportedly healthy on Monday who is then put on the DL after his team has started the Monday game or even on Tues or Wed (one current example is Jarred Cosart) not being able to be replaced for the weekend games.

Greg is it possible to revisit this?



PVH

Perry, the biggest problem with going with any setup that involves the DL is waiting for the league to officially say a player is on the DL. Rotowire and every other industry site can say on Wednesday night that a player is going on the DL, but the team may not file the paperwork until Thursday and the league won't officially put him on the DL until Friday and then all hell breaks loose on our boards because certain owners couldn't take that pitcher out of their starting lineup for the weekend games. There's no perfect setup here even when the software is ready for it. MLB's setup is too slow to make this function correctly.

We don't have DL changes for hitters; we just allow you to make weekend changes. But we can't do that for pitchers or it would become a streaming pitchers' contest. There's no perfect way to account for pitchers' injuries during the week, so for now I think the setup we have is the best setup for handling injuries. Heck, we might be the only season-long game that allows hitter moves on Fridays. I sure wish Tout Wars, LABR, FSTA and the other leagues allowed that much.

Greg you are in TOUT and know how that system works - it wouldn't be any different if the NFBC went to DL replacement/activation moves.

BUT you don't have to go that far to allow a pitcher DLed Monday (after his team locks), Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday to be replaced on Friday.

As far as the available designation, onroto is always a day late as you have seen in TOUT so I am sure the STATS programmers can figure out what to do with their system.

It would just make a BETTER contest

[Glenneration X]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

As such, this would eliminate any pitching changes for Friday.
A dl designation on Thursday or a pitch thrown on Thursday would thwart any NFBC'er who does their lineups on Tuesday or Wednesday.

To be fair to those who may be too busy on any particular day like Rog on Fridays, by allowing the lineup lock to be applied only after a pitcher throws a pitch and not limiting it to Monday or Friday game times, keeps the option to switch the player open all week long.

It also would allow someone to utilize an originally benched pitcher who is scheduled to pitch on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday to be utilized if a Cosart type goes on the DL on Monday.

Just throwing out some ideas. I agree with Perry and those others that believe this flexibility would make for a better contest.

[COZ]

I very rarely have much time on Fridays to do hitting changes let alone pitching. I try to do as many moves as possible when possible.

And this is coming from an NFBC die-hard. This is definitely a concern that we'd hear from many others who are very busy during the work week and feel they may have lost the title by being unavailable on some Fridays. It's why the Draft Champions Leagues are so popular.

I disagree. There can't be many who play in a contest that requires the investment in time & money that it takes to play the NFBC, that isn't engaged enough to find a few moments during their very busy week to change out a Cosart if given the opportunity when still competitive in their leagues. If there are, they wouldn't be competitive very long.

This of course excludes the DC leagues where part of the appeal is the ability to be less engaged. However, this is easily rectified by allowing these moves in only FAAB leagues.

Totally agree with your disagreement. We're already forced to visit our line-ups to make Batter changes, really is it that hard/time-comsuming to look at pitchers that have not thrown a pitch and click two buttons? The "time-comsuming" argument against is a total red-herring, in my opinion. Glenn nailed it. Limit changes to pitchers who have not thrown a pitch during the week. I'm all for this if it can be programmed.

COZ

[Captain Hook]

If we were to do anything with pitchers, my hope is that it wouldn't involve the official MLB DL list. Hopefully we could figure out a process that allows owners to make the move without that stupid list from MLB.

Why can't we just allow owners to change out any pitcher on Friday who hasn't already pitched Monday through Thursday. I don't see why that wouldn't resolve all issues.

It would allow owners to swap out a pitcher who is DL'd after the Monday locks but before he pitches ala Cosart. It would also prevent owners searching for a loophole from streaming a 2-start pitcher away from a tough early week start while activating him for an easier late week start.

And all this done without relying on the MLB DL designation.

Wouldn't that address all the concerns?

Good alternative Glenn

[Navel Lint]

To be fair to those who may be too busy on any particular day like Rog on Fridays, by allowing the lineup lock to be applied only after a pitcher throws a pitch and not limiting it to Monday or Friday game times, keeps the option to switch the player open all week long.

It also would allow someone to utilize an originally benched pitcher who is scheduled to pitch on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday to be utilized if a Cosart type goes on the DL on Monday.

Just throwing out some ideas. I agree with Perry and those others that believe this flexibility would make for a better contest.

I know every rule can't account for every possibility, but..............

I have pitcher 'X' in my active lineup with a probable start later in the week. The potential for a positive outcome in his match-up is 50/50 at best.
On Monday night I'm watching the Yankees and I see my benched reliever, Dellin Betances warming up in the bullpen in the 8th inning of a 2-2 ballgame.
Switching Betances into my active lineup at that time would be a smart play, in a Vincente Padilla sort of ethical way.

I know that's probably a rare occurrence, but do we want that? Do you want to lose a league title that way?

[Glenneration X]

To be fair to those who may be too busy on any particular day like Rog on Fridays, by allowing the lineup lock to be applied only after a pitcher throws a pitch and not limiting it to Monday or Friday game times, keeps the option to switch the player open all week long.

It also would allow someone to utilize an originally benched pitcher who is scheduled to pitch on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday to be utilized if a Cosart type goes on the DL on Monday.

Just throwing out some ideas. I agree with Perry and those others that believe this flexibility would make for a better contest.

I know every rule can't account for every possibility, but..............

I have pitcher 'X' in my active lineup with a probable start later in the week. The potential for a positive outcome in his match-up is 50/50 at best.
On Monday night I'm watching the Yankees and I see my benched reliever, Dellin Betances warming up in the bullpen in the 8th inning of a 2-2 ballgame.
Switching Betances into my active lineup at that time would be a smart play, in a Vincente Padilla sort of ethical way.

I know that's probably a rare occurrence, but do we want that? Do you want to lose a league title that way?

I think I'd rather lose a league title that way rather than because Cosart went on the DL Monday after lineups lock.

Let's face it Russ, we can't create a fail safe for all possibilities. No matter what we put in place, someone will be able to come up with some extremely remote possibility where it won't be perfect.

Still, I can't see any negative whatsoever in giving us the ability to switch out a pitcher who gets disabled before throwing one pitch that week. I gave some thoughts, they might not be perfect, but they're ideas to solve a problem area. Some other idea may be better. I just think we'd be better off if something was put in place to give us flexibility when this occurs.

[DOUGHBOYS]

To be fair to those who may be too busy on any particular day like Rog on Fridays, by allowing the lineup lock to be applied only after a pitcher throws a pitch and not limiting it to Monday or Friday game times, keeps the option to switch the player open all week long.

It also would allow someone to utilize an originally benched pitcher who is scheduled to pitch on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday to be utilized if a Cosart type goes on the DL on Monday.

Just throwing out some ideas. I agree with Perry and those others that believe this flexibility would make for a better contest.

I know every rule can't account for every possibility, but..............

I have pitcher 'X' in my active lineup with a probable start later in the week. The potential for a positive outcome in his match-up is 50/50 at best.
On Monday night I'm watching the Yankees and I see my benched reliever, Dellin Betances warming up in the bullpen in the 8th inning of a 2-2 ballgame.
Switching Betances into my active lineup at that time would be a smart play, in a Vincente Padilla sort of ethical way.

I know that's probably a rare occurrence, but do we want that? Do you want to lose a league title that way?

You play Devil's advocate. I'll play 'Angel attorney'.

I have Jonathon Niese on the road in a start vs. the Yankees.
I bench him.
Mets management then brings up Matz, so that starters get an extra day of rest.
Now, Niese faces the Phils at home.
Glenn's proposal gives me the chance to insert him.

Edit:
I also don't think the Betances scenario is valid. I would think we can insert our players on the 'overnight run', not 'up to the minute'.

[TParsons]

Leave it to this topic to bring me out of the woodwork.

Other than the issues already discussed, there were a couple of bigger issues when we last had the "DL Rule". 1) you could get two starts, out of two different pitchers, for one lineup slot if you had a player coming off the DL in the first period. 2) teams with the exact roster couldn't make the same changes up to the stated "lineup lock time."... but according to Greg, that was fine.

For example, if two teams both had Jaime Garcia and Mike Bolsinger this week. Garcia is currently on the DL and in both teams starting lineups for period 1 & 2, while Bolsinger is on the bench, but has not yet pitched. Garcia currently has the dreaded "DL tag" on his name. The Cardinals activate Garcia before his start tomorrow. Team 1 goes into his lineup and replaces Garcia with Bolsinger for period 2 while the IT guy is taking a shit. Team 2 waits 10 minutes later and decides he wants to do the same, but the IT guy has finished his shit and removed the "DL tag" from Garcia's name. So now since the DL tag has been removed, team 2 can't make the exact same changes with the exact same players as team 1, even though the cardinals game hasn't started, Bolsinger hasn't pitched, and the lineup lock time for the 2nd period hasn't passed. So team 1 gets 2 starts- 1 from Garcia and 1 from Bolsinger, while team 2 only gets the Garcia start...but apparently there's no issue with that happening.

I'm likely in the minority here, but because IT has shown no reason for us to have any confidence in them whatsoever- after 2 yrs of promises we still don't even have a new live draft room, and the game operators have shown inconsistency in how they deal with circumventing loopholes in the software for reasons other than what they are meant (2009 v. 2013), I would not play in any event that involved any sort of DL designation, manual processing by the "IT guy", or any complicated programming on the back end. That whole issue with 2013 was complete bullshit and I have no interest in being involved with anything like that again. That said, I am with those that vote for allowing pitching changes for all pitchers on Fridays. Either do the twice a week pitching changes, or leave it like it is. At least right now everybody is in the same boat and not at the mercy of when the IT guy removes the DL tag.

[Red Sox Nation-]

I was always in the "leave it as is" camp, but after reading some pretty compelling reasons/examples I'm absolutely for making this change for the better of the game.

As COZ alluded to, if I have to go in to adjust my offense for Friday it's gonna take a fraction of the time to check if I had a pitcher who hasn't thrown a pitch yet that I can swap out. I'll spend a heck of a lot more time reviewing my offensive changes. I'd guess more than 50% of the time we won't even have an option to make this work. (wild guess)

Russ brought up a valid point with his example but how often will that happen vs. pitchers getting injured/pushed back/sent down/suspension/drop appeal/paternity leave/Bereavement leave, etc.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Edit:
I also don't think the Betances scenario is valid. I would think we can insert our players on the 'overnight run', not 'up to the minute'.

I got a couple of PM's asking what I mean by this.
Instead of inserting a pitcher just any time of day, we would have until the first game of each day to make our changes for pitchers that had not thrown a pitch.
This would resolve Russ' Betances example.

[Navel Lint]

Edit:
I also don't think the Betances scenario is valid. I would think we can insert our players on the 'overnight run', not 'up to the minute'.

I got a couple of PM's asking what I mean by this.
Instead of inserting a pitcher just any time of day, we would have until the first game of each day to make our changes for pitchers that had not thrown a pitch.
This would resolve Russ' Betances example.

So now I have two pitchers going on Thurs night, one in my active lineup, one on the bench.
The active guy, "A", has a 6p start with a great match-up.
The benched guy "B", has a 9p start with a so-so match-up.

The 6p start is delayed by rain, then cancelled at 8p.
Pitcher "A"s great match-up on Thurs just got pushed back to a horrible match-up on Friday.
I would love to put in Pitcher "B", but now I can't under your understanding of the rules, but I would under Glenn's unlocked at all times rule (which brings my Betances example back into play).

Always loopholes or deficiencies to be found

With our current rules, at least there are no loop holes.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Edit:
I also don't think the Betances scenario is valid. I would think we can insert our players on the 'overnight run', not 'up to the minute'.

I got a couple of PM's asking what I mean by this.
Instead of inserting a pitcher just any time of day, we would have until the first game of each day to make our changes for pitchers that had not thrown a pitch.
This would resolve Russ' Betances example.

So now I have two pitchers going on Thurs night, one in my active lineup, one on the bench.
The active guy, "A", has a 6p start with a great match-up.
The benched guy "B", has a 9p start with a so-so match-up.

The 6p start is delayed by rain, then cancelled at 8p.
Pitcher "A"s great match-up on Thurs just got pushed back to a horrible match-up on Friday.
I would love to put in Pitcher "B", but now I can't under your understanding of the rules, but I would under Glenn's unlocked at all times rule (which brings my Betances example back into play).

Always loopholes or deficiencies to be found

With our current rules, at least there are no loop holes.

Russ,
Kate Upton could knock on my door, telling me she is tired of Justin and has always wanted me.
That will never happen either.

Even if your 'loophole' did happen, everybody would be in the same boat. It is not a loophole.

[Navel Lint]

Russ,
Kate Upton could knock on my door, telling me she is tired of Justin and has always wanted me.
That will never happen either.

Even if your 'loophole' did happen, everybody would be in the same boat. It is not a loophole.

You mean just like we are all in the same boat now, but people still want to make changes because they don't like the way their team was effected.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Russ,
Kate Upton could knock on my door, telling me she is tired of Justin and has always wanted me.
That will never happen either.

Even if your 'loophole' did happen, everybody would be in the same boat. It is not a loophole.

You mean just like we are all in the same boat now, but people still want to make changes because they don't like the way their team was effected.

Only we have more freedom to make choices on our roster.
Change is hard, I know.
It is the main reason why this probably won't be adopted.
I think it would better our game.
But, am dubious that there are several folks opposed to change, for the sake of change.

Edit-
Many, many folks thought that Friday hitters was a drastic change.
It was.
Now, most couldn't imagine NOT having those choices.
The NFBC has always never been afraid to be ahead of the curve.
Really, I have heard no valid reasons not to have choices in pitchers that have not thrown. The more choices and freedoms we have in a lineup enables us to have more control over our team's destiny.
That makes for a better game.
But change, change is hard for a lot of folks to follow and swallow.

[ikenbaseball]

IMO
more flexibility = better game = greater number of happier players (isn't this the ultimate goal for greg/tom?)