New type of contest needed !

[TOXIC ASSETS]

Hear me out. Normally by now I've signed up for a league or two. But I find myself hesitating this year.

I believe that DFS has changed the landscape completely with regards to this stuff. I originally wasn't on board with DFS. But I now find myself gravitating towards playing the DFS games because of the payout system. Meaning either 1) the high payout tournaments where you can risk only minimal money ($5 normally for me) OR 2) the 50%50% games where as long as you beat 1/2 of your competitors, you cash. Only 3 out of 15 teams cash in the standard NFBC league. 20% chance. And 3rd place is usually around a break even. Meaning just 2 teams make money.

My recommendation would be that the NFBC take a serious look at adding some new contests paying out the top 6 teams in a 15 team league. So at a $500 price point (to keep things easy), the NFBC would collect $7,500 to start. Then you could have a payout system like this:

1st - $2,500
2nd - $1,500
3rd - $1,000
4th - $750
5th - $750
6th - $500

$500 profit for NFBC.
40% of the league gets something. Double the current situation.

Another benefit: You would have a lot less teams throwing in the towel and stopping the management of their rosters.

On the downside, 1st place only gets to quintuple their money from $500 to $2,500. Still not a bad rate of return.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

[JohnP]

My opinion:

- Your example is a stand-alone league. I play the "big overall prize" events with the realization that some of my entry goes towards the overall prize and as such, less is left over for league prizes. I think hard to distribute the prize pool down further at the league level in those type of leagues.

- I like only paying top 3 (or top 4 in a non-overall prize contest). What's next - participation trophies?

- That all being said - I like the thought of new ideas to attract more folks to these contests. Hopefully the new cutline does just that. If something like what you proposed did that - that could be a real good thing. It feels to me though that most folks want to go after the carrot of the big prize and join those contest but then again, the stand-alone NY auction leagues seemed to have a huge draw this year despite first place already being proclaimed to be already won by a humble individual from York, PA.

- Also agree that the economics are tough. House rake, white house rake, entry fee, other expenses - hard to make this all work if you don't hit some of the overall dollars at some point.

[Bronx Yankees]

Hear me out. Normally by now I've signed up for a league or two. But I find myself hesitating this year.

I believe that DFS has changed the landscape completely with regards to this stuff. I originally wasn't on board with DFS. But I now find myself gravitating towards playing the DFS games because of the payout system. Meaning either 1) the high payout tournaments where you can risk only minimal money ($5 normally for me) OR 2) the 50%50% games where as long as you beat 1/2 of your competitors, you cash. Only 3 out of 15 teams cash in the standard NFBC league. 20% chance. And 3rd place is usually around a break even. Meaning just 2 teams make money.

My recommendation would be that the NFBC take a serious look at adding some new contests paying out the top 6 teams in a 15 team league. So at a $500 price point (to keep things easy), the NFBC would collect $7,500 to start. Then you could have a payout system like this:

1st - $2,500
2nd - $1,500
3rd - $1,000
4th - $750
5th - $750
6th - $500

$500 profit for NFBC.
40% of the league gets something. Double the current situation.

Another benefit: You would have a lot less teams throwing in the towel and stopping the management of their rosters.

On the downside, 1st place only gets to quintuple their money from $500 to $2,5000. Still not a bad rate of return.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

I can understand and respect a preference for paying beyond the top three finishers in a league, but I see at least two issues with your proposal.

First, I note that you have cut the NFBC's normal "take" to make your numbers work. For instance, a $500 satellite league currently pays $4,000/$1,500/$500, totaling $6,000 in league prizes. Your proposal bumps the total pay-out to $7,000. I'm sure that if we ever got to the volume of DFS leagues - which run virtually every night during baseball season and are over in a single night - the NFBC would happily alter its take. Given, however, that there probably are not that many $500 satellite leagues and these leagues have to be administered for the entire season, it probably is not right to premise your proposal on the NFBC relinquishing two-thirds ($1,000 out of $1,500) of its normal take for this type of league. I imagine the DFS business is very different from the season-long business. The DFS business is high-volume with (I suspect) lower margins per contest (but who knows?). The season-long business probably needs much-higher margins than the DFS business to be economic because you are dealing with, comparatively, a tiny number of contests.

Second, I suspect the top prize would not be sufficiently attractive to most under your format. The best players in the country compete in the NFBC. If I'm going to pay $500 to enter a league and am fortunate enough to beat out 14 serious competitors, I'd prefer a better pay-out than 5:1. Betting $500 to win $4,000 is more enticing, at least to me, than betting $500 to win $2,500, even with the addition of smaller prizes for finishing fourth through sixth. This is purely a matter of preference, but I think the existing pay-out structures work pretty well.

Mike

[DOUGHBOYS]

In effect, we'd be offering copper, lead, and zinc prizes for Olympians who finish fourth, fifth, and sixth.
It's all part of the wussification of America. Everybody wants to feel like a winner.
When going to Vegas, we tell others of the $50 jackpot won in slots. Not the $100 lost at Craps.
I'm horrified that a team with an under .500 record can be offered a bowl game.
That a team finishing under .500 qualifies for professional playoffs.
IT'S WRONG!
Where does it stop?
Those daily contests are made for customers to keep coming back each day and throw in another $5/7
(see what those stupid chat rooms of the NFBC have me doing? I'm pretending that dashes don't exist like they do!!!).
A yearly contest isn't after your money everyday like the daily's are.
It's a different ballgame.

Let's turn the tables. If finishing sixth in a 15 team league, do you feel satified? Gratified?
I know I don't.
I'm disappointed.
We shouldn't be paid for disappointment.
That's just bad parenting.

(Edited twice because of crappy tpying )....see?

[76erfan]

Agree if people want 50 50 type contests go play dfs. Don't see any issue with current set up. Play to win not just finish top half

[ToddZ]

I don't have an issue with the concept - different strokes for different folks.

Just beware the league is likely to have owners using more gimmicky strategies to finish in the money (all SP, no SP, wait forever on pitching, first 9 picks pitching, dump power hoard speed and average, etc.) This is all within the rules but can be frustrating for the other owners.

Personally, I'd rather take the $500 and spend it on 4 $125 satellites.

[Yah Mule]

As soon as the NFL went to four divisions per conference, I began hoping we would see a 6-10 or 5-11 division winner. It's going to happen. With a little luck, we could have seen two sub-.500 division winners this season.

[KJ Duke]

Just beware the league is likely to have owners using more gimmicky strategies to finish in the money (all SP, no SP, wait forever on pitching, first 9 picks pitching, dump power hoard speed and average, etc.) This is all within the rules but can be frustrating for the other owners.

Yep, it would need to be a points league to make it work without all the punting. Even paying 4th in the Platinum is unliked by perhaps half the league at this point; I've generally been for flatter pays at higher stakes, but I've reached the point where I'd do away with 4th money for this reason.

[Captain Hook]

Great format for people who want to draft more with less risk

[Yah Mule]

I used to play fantasy baseball at a place called See BS. Ten teams enter, one team leaves. I lost an NL Only league by a half a point one year because I lost batting average by a few hundred thousandths of a point. Ian Desmond, let me thank you again for that 2-24 final week. First place won $1600 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.

So, payouts to three winners - and a smaller house cut - was one of the many reasons I switched to the NFBC. I think the system in place now works really well. I also like the two payout system in the Online Championship leagues. I wouldn't enter a league that paid out to five or six spots, but I'm sure Greg and Tom would at least consider that format as an alternative if enough people showed interest.

[TOXIC ASSETS]

In effect, we'd be offering copper, lead, and zinc prizes for Olympians who finish fourth, fifth, and sixth.
It's all part of the wussification of America. Everybody wants to feel like a winner.
When going to Vegas, we tell others of the $50 jackpot won in slots. Not the $100 lost at Craps.
I'm horrified that a team with an under .500 record can be offered a bowl game.
That a team finishing under .500 qualifies for professional playoffs.
IT'S WRONG!
Where does it stop?
Those daily contests are made for customers to keep coming back each day and throw in another $5/7
(see what those stupid chat rooms of the NFBC have me doing? I'm pretending that dashes don't exist like they do!!!).
A yearly contest isn't after your money everyday like the daily's are.
It's a different ballgame.

Let's turn the tables. If finishing sixth in a 15 team league, do you feel satified? Gratified?
I know I don't.
I'm disappointed.
We shouldn't be paid for disappointment.
That's just bad parenting.

(Edited twice because of crappy tpying )....see?

Dan......
12 of 32 NFL teams make playoffs.
10 of 30 MLB teams make playoffs.
16 of 30 NBA and NHL teams make playoffs (too many)

If finishing sixth in a 15 team league, do you feel satisfied? Gratified? Answer to this question: if I at least covered my costs - YES. I'd rather finish 6th of 15 with a $500 payout (and know that the games in Aug & Sept are probably going to matter) rather than knowing I have only a 20% chance to even get my money back.

I'm not saying to do away with the current setup. For those who like it, have fun. I'm only suggesting that NFBC should add some new contests.

[76erfan]

I think its fine as a 'suggestion'. But the title says new type of contest 'needed!'...I don't think anything is broken....

[TOXIC ASSETS]

I think its fine as a 'suggestion'. But the title says new type of contest 'needed!'...I don't think anything is broken....

Maybe not Andy, but the signups for the auctions are clearly slower than in years past.

[teflontim]

I think 6 places is a little much, but 3 with 3rd basically breaking even isn't enough. Paying more places means more winners which means more repeat business.

[Captain Hook]

I think its fine as a 'suggestion'. But the title says new type of contest 'needed!'...I don't think anything is broken....

Maybe not Andy, but the signups for the auctions are clearly slower than in years past.

well for one thing the auctions haven't even STARTED yet

[ToddZ]

I think its fine as a 'suggestion'. But the title says new type of contest 'needed!'...I don't think anything is broken....

Maybe not Andy, but the signups for the auctions are clearly slower than in years past.

Auctions take 5 hours, give or take. We're not really pushing them until we know RTS is ready and we can set a firm date/time for each. Check back in a week -- things will be different.

[76erfan]

yeah i dont see how auctions really have anything to do with this.......cant sell whats not available yet. Assuming RT sports is ready to go this week...we will have at least two full ones this coming weekend.....we woulda filled some in december if the site was ready.

last year...we got several blizzards on east coast and people were stuck in doors and we filled some day of starting from scratch.

back to your idea....I dont think its a bad idea......everyone has different preferences in what they play...dont think i would play a top 6 payout...then again i dont play 50/50 on DFS either.

if tom and greg think there is merit to doing one of these...they will do it.....if they dont.....hope you still play here.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Dan......
12 of 32 NFL teams make playoffs.
10 of 30 MLB teams make playoffs.
16 of 30 NBA and NHL teams make playoffs (too many)

If finishing sixth in a 15 team league, do you feel satisfied? Gratified? Answer to this question: if I at least covered my costs - YES. I'd rather finish 6th of 15 with a $500 payout (and know that the games in Aug & Sept are probably going to matter) rather than knowing I have only a 20% chance to even get my money back.

I'm not saying to do away with the current setup. For those who like it, have fun. I'm only suggesting that NFBC should add some new contests.

Ken, you state those playoff teams as if gospel.
They're all wrong as far as 'rewards'.
Just like the Bowl system.
Rewards for mediocrity? Ugh.
The only reason why they are like that is to make the teams and organizations lots of $$$$$$$
As a friend of mine once said, "Nobody likes to see an under .500 team in the playoffs....UNLESS IT'S MY TEAM!!!"

I have never felt satisfied finishing sixth in anything. Never.
Playing for sixth place?
No thank you.
But, as others have said, maybe others would.

Just a short story about this subject....
My daughter is a teacher. She asked the class, between red and blue, what is your favorite color.
Blue won.
So, my daughter had 100 blue ribbons made up and one red ribbon.
She organized an all classes race at recess.
Everybody would receive a blue ribbon EXCEPT for the last place recipient, who would get the red ribbon.
This was to insure that everybody would do their best.
And it was first grade/fifth grade so no feelings would get hurt.
The race ran and a girl who hardly tried at all finished last.
My daughter handed her the red ribbon and asked her why she hadn't given it maximum effort.
"I LIKE RED!!" Was her response. Fair enough!
That night, my daughter got a phone call from the girl's parents, asking why she wasn't a winner.
Why was she 'shamed' in front of classmates.
My daughter said all the right things, then called me for solace.

There were 100 happy winners. One happy loser.
AND STILL, somebody was not happy.
It's a crazy world.
A world that has a lot of losers.
Those losers should try to be winners.
Not, the other way around.

[Gekko]

ken - in your example, the nfbc is only taking a 6.67% rake for a measly $500. this needs to be adjusted to 20% rake,ie, $1,500. so you need to reduce your prize pool by another $1,000 if you want to compare apples to apples.

i have played 50/50s and have found them enjoyable to an extent. nothing beats the NFBC season long games. as for nfbc payouts (in overall prize pool formats), i enjoy:

smaller leagues ($1 - $350) - pay only two spots
medium leagues ($351 - $5,000) - pay only three spots
larger leagues ($5,000+) - i can live with either pay three or four spots

[davetniagarafalls]

The one part of your post that has not been covered yet is: "Another benefit: You would have a lot less teams throwing in the towel and stopping the management of their rosters." This has frustrated me over the years - and not just with NFBC/NFFC contests. Is there any strategy in regards to payouts that would accomplish this? I have seen high weekly scores done (obviously not in baseball), 2nd half prizes, etc., but none of those have seemed to make a difference. I DO wish owners would at least put a full/healthy lineup in every week through the end of the season. I think everyone can point to a league they've been in where final standings likely were impacted by a few owners' lack of attention.

[DOUGHBOYS]

The weekly prizes offered by the NFBC during the early years, helped deter 'giver-up-pers'.
Even with a bad or mediocre team, the weekly prize encouraged those Managers.
If not having a team for the ages, the weekly prize was always there as a carrot.

[tslive]

You could always commission your own league, pay out 100%, and not ask a business like NFBC to accommodate your personal preferences.... just saying!

[BK METS]

50/50 in DFS works for daily/weekly, just like blackjack works for the casino. Quick ways to double your money. I wouldn't personally put my efforts in a full season, especially in baseball, to win $2,500, for a $500 investment, against 14 opponents. For me, it wouldn't be something I would invest in, not saying it wouldn't be something that might attract some players for some private satellite leagues. One thing is for sure.... Tom and Greg consider all ideas seriously and if they see it working, they will make it happen. Almost every league you see at the NFBC, other than your basic snake drafts, were conceived and brought in by players. That is the great thing about these guys... they are open to anything that might work.. Personally I don't think this will attract enough.... Most DFS players play 50/50 for a completely different reason than what is being proposed here.

[TOXIC ASSETS]

Since Greg & Tom have not chimed in, I'll assume this idea won't be under consideration.

I just can't continue to plunk down $$ every year with a 20% chance to win no matter how good the games are (auction especially - GREAT) and the NFBC management is (top notch).

Not understanding why more people haven't been banging the drum for some new contests, I guess everyone is winning money except me!

[BK METS]

Since Greg & Tom have not chimed in, I'll assume this idea won't be under consideration.

I just can't continue to plunk down $$ every year with a 20% chance to win no matter how good the games are (auction especially - GREAT) and the NFBC management is (top notch).

Not understanding why more people haven't been banging the drum for some new contests, I guess everyone is winning money except me!

Ok let's see...

Draft champions
DC auction
Cutline
Every level of satettlite private leagues
Other privates such as DHDC, MLBC, NFBC keeper
Overall championships for Main, Online, Auction, DC

And I am probably missing some. You can say what you want about the NFBC, one thing they are not is, closed to new ideas and different types of games. Just because your idea is not a great one, doesn't mean there aren't new types of games to choose from every year.