I hate having to submit a starting lineup

[TRAIN]

Having to submit starting lineups is the thing that I hate most about fantasy baseball. It is so dependent on luck. You can do all of the research in the world about a player's history for home vs away, grass vs turf, day games vs night games, player vs a particular team, etc., etc. and it doesn't mean a thing because sometimes the luck factor intervenes.

Luck Factors: Weather, illness, paternity leave, injury, bereavement leave, banned substance violation suspensions, manager changes his mind about starters, criminal behavior suspension, etc., etc..

Having not to submit a starting lineup is one of the reasons I really like the Cutline contest. I have Juan Nicasio in the Rotowire Online contest and in the Cutline contest. Last week he was scheduled to pitch in Colorado so I benched him in the Rotowire Online contest. The game got cancelled because of bad weather and he ended up pitching at home and had his best game ever. Since you don't have to submit a starting lineup in Cutline, I got his stats. In the Rotowire Online contest, I got zero and really pissed. There have been other examples as well.

Papelbon's performance last night was a huge downer because I had him in my starting lineup for the Rotowire Online contest:

IP = 0.2
HIS = 5
ERA = 40.50
WHIP = 7.50
ER = 3

Yet, in my Cutline contest it was not that big of a deal because I have other pitchers with better stats who could be inserted in the starting lineup for my team instead of Papelbon .

I know that a lot of people like the traditional 10 statistical categories of rotisserie baseball (as do I), but I wish there was a way to eliminate having to submit a starting lineup in all of the NFBC contests without having to go strictly to a points based system. I think it would make for a much more enjoyable experience, greatly reduce the luck factor, and cause more people to want to play.

[KJ Duke]

I know that a lot of people like the traditional 10 statistical categories of rotisserie baseball (as do I), but I wish there was a way to eliminate having to submit a starting lineup in all of the NFBC contests without having to go strictly to a points based system.

The only way I can think to do it would use a roto-equivalent point system (as the cutline does now) to determine optimal starters, but for standings use the actual stats (not points) for roto categories. But your theoretical optimal lineup would not be your actual optimal lineup given category needs.

... and even if you could build in sophisticated algos to look at roto standings for team-specific optimal determination, it would be an interlooping maze since each iteration of optimal for you would change based on how the algo adjusts other team's algos. As such, converting the value of roto stats into their points-equivalent was the only practical way to do it.

[brian4state]

I've been playing fantasy sports for over 20 years and have never once played in a points league until Cutline. It really has been something that I can't believe how much more I enjoy it.Having said that, the old school fantasy player in me, I sometimes think this format is just the "easy" way to play. Further, I realize there are points leagues where you set lineups. I will continue to play traditional style leagues, but I will definitely have several "best ball" format leagues this year in NFL. I'm glad I gave Cutline a try.

[DOUGHBOYS]

A starting lineup is vital for the Main Event.
If we had best ball, it would undercut drafting and procuring of prospects. If all seven bench spots could count as well as the first 23, we would be trying to get at bats on the bench as well.
And who is to say which is the better pitching perfrmance for a week, the pitcher with 5ip,3er, 3k, 1 W or the pitcher with 5ip, 3er, 3k, and 1Save.

Sure there is luck involved, man!
There is luck involved in no lineups too, especially when you get a great performance, unexpected.
Good luck is easy to accept. Bad luck, not so much.

[Driver Love]

To me it is the difference between pitch n putt golf and high level golf. High level golf can frustrate the hell out of you. Difficult holes, tough pin placements, hazards everywhere and you can end up with a frustrating result when playing them. I like the challenges of setting lineups and making tough decisions even though occasionally the decision ends up being wrong (like me allowing my infatuation with Alex Meyer from following him for 3 years result in a high bid and starting him this week). Though I am not playing the cutline I believe there is a place for the easier, lower stress format but I can't imagine not playing the higher stress, multiple week to week decisions, higher accountability format too.

[TRAIN]

Doughboys - Of course there will always be luck involved. What I said was about "reducing" the luck involved and enjoying the games more.

When I draft players, I am betting that my understanding of what that player is going to do, or has the potential to do, is going to help me win over the course of a season. When I have to submit a starting lineup, I am being asked to play God for the next 4 to 7 days. When in reality, I have absolutely no control over the unforseen circumstances (luck factors) that will occur in the next week.

The only thing that I control is the choice of the players that I draft.

Personally, I would rather let God be God for the next 4 to 7 days and I can live with my choices and the performances for the next week of ALL of the players that I drafted. It makes for a much more enjoyable experience.

[TRAIN]

Driver Love - I don't see the analogy of playing a tough golf course and submitting a starting lineup each week. When you play a tough golf course, YOU are in control of the shots you make. You have NO control over unforseen circumstances that can occur in the next 4 to 7 days when submitting a starting lineup each week.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Doughboys - Of course there will always be luck involved. What I said was about "reducing" the luck involved and enjoying the games more.

When I draft players, I am betting that my understanding of what that player is going to do, or has the potential to do, is going to help me win over the course of a season. When I have to submit a starting lineup, I am being asked to play God for the next 4 to 7 days. When in reality, I have absolutely no control over the unforseen circumstances (luck factors) that will occur in the next week.

The only thing that I control is the choice of the players that I draft.

Personally, I would rather let God be God for the next 4 to 7 days and I can live with my choices and the performances for the next week of ALL of the players that I drafted. It makes for a much more enjoyable experience.

Train-
Cutline rules are good for cutline and I'm glad you're enjoying those rules.
It wouldn't work well for just a 30 player roster.
In effect, some teams would have 30 eligible players, others 24. Instead of 23 vs. 23.
Imagine your team has run into some real tough luck. You have AJ Reed and five injured players on your bench.
Your competition gets a double advantage of having starting lineup AND bench help, while you are struggling to put together a starting lineup alone.
Penalties are already severe with injuries, best ball would magnify injuries to the Nth degree.

[whipsaw]

Driver Love - I don't see the analogy of playing a tough golf course and submitting a starting lineup each week. When you play a tough golf course, YOU are in control of the shots you make. You have NO control over unforseen circumstances that can occur in the next 4 to 7 days when submitting a starting lineup each week.

You must not play much golf if you think there's no luck involved in that sport, even at the professional levels.

[TRAIN]

So, I am watching the Cincinnatti Reds game last Sunday and I see Adam Duvall crash into the wall and get pretty shaken up. He talks them into letting him stay in the game. The next day, Monday, we have to submit our starting lineups. I see that Duvall is not in the Reds lineup for Monday - so I figure that he might be hurt from what happened yesterday and bench him in both of my 2 Rotowire contest teams. Tuesday, he's back in the Reds lineup and hits a HR; Wednesday he hits a HR; Thursday he hits a HR. That is the bad news because I get no credit for his 3 HRs in the Rotowire contest. The good news is I also have Duvall on 2 of my 3 Cutline teams. Since I don't have to submit a starting lineup in Cutline, I do get credit for his 3 HRs in that contest.
Another example of what I mean when I say not having to submit a starting lineup makes playing fantasy baseball a much more enjoyable experience.

Some people have commented here that not having to submit a starting lineup is the "easy" way to play the game and they are more accountable (implying that, somehow, unless you submit a starting lineup, you are not as good at fantasy baseball as they are because they are forced to submit a starting lineup). I couldn't disagree more.

I have stated in this thread how unforseen circumstances can come into play during the next 4 to 7 days of which you have no control over when submitting a starting lineup. Since you have no control, how does that make you a better manager?

The only things that you have control over are the players on your team that you chose to draft and who you chose to target and actually picked up in FAAB. Their WHOLE performance or non-performance is what you should get rewarded or not rewarded for.

What I take pride in, and what I think defines a good fantasy baseball manager, is being a good overall talent evaluator via the draft and FAAB, rather than submitting some arbitrary starting lineup composed of only SOME of my players that I think might do well over the next 4 to 7 days, when in reality I have no idea or control of the unforseen circumstances that will happen during the next 4 to 7 days.

When I read some of the complaints on this message board, I see that a lot of them are centered around players they chose to start (and they didn't play well) or players they chose to bench (and they played great). Unless you like getting kicked in the face and beating up on yourself after submitting your starting lineup and s*** happens, all of that frustration could be eliminated by not having to submit a starting lineup.

Having said that, I think K.J. Duke is probably right about how hard it would be to convert a "best ball" scoring system to the 10 traditional roto categories (although he sounds like he might be able to do it if he put his mind to it), and Doughboys had some good points as well regarding 30 player rosters and the "best ball" format.

As far as the golf analogy goes, even though there is some luck involved in everything in life, since you are the one swinging the golf club (making you responsible for where the ball goes) and presumably know the layout of the golf course you are playing, I see mostly that you are in control and I do not see luck being much of a factor. If I am wrong about that, please enlighten me.

[Driver Love]

Driver Love - I don't see the analogy of playing a tough golf course and submitting a starting lineup each week. When you play a tough golf course, YOU are in control of the shots you make. You have NO control over unforseen circumstances that can occur in the next 4 to 7 days when submitting a starting lineup each week.

You must not play much golf if you think there's no luck involved in that sport, even at the professional levels.

This is the second reading comprehension hiccup I have seen here in a couple days. Where did I say there is "no luck" involved in golf or on the professional levels? I will save you the time (never mentioned it). The point is/was about levels of challenge. I can play lower level challenge golf on an easier course or pitch n putt course and have fun with it. Just as I can play an easier format fantasy baseball contests that does not challenge me in as many ways or require as many difficult decisions. There is a place for all formats. The point was about levels of challenge and had nothing to do with where luck comes into play. Luck comes into play with all competitions that exist.

[Driver Love]

Driver Love - I don't see the analogy of playing a tough golf course and submitting a starting lineup each week. When you play a tough golf course, YOU are in control of the shots you make. You have NO control over unforseen circumstances that can occur in the next 4 to 7 days when submitting a starting lineup each week.

Train,

The analogy was about higher challenge vs Lower challenge formats compared to higher challenge vs lower challenge golf experiences. That was all. Was never about luck. I didn't even type a thing about "luck." However, when you submit your fantasy lineup YOU are in control of those decisions and the better players make the better decisions more often than the lesser skilled players. Obviously luck can be good or bad for any player. Luck comes into play in golf too. You can get a bad bounce. Catch a terrible lie. You can have your ball end up in a divot on a perfect drive. You can hit a spike market and miss a putt you shouldn't have. There are lots of luck based things that can happen on the golf course. My point was never about luck existing or not existing. My point was about higher challenge or lower challenge competitive experiences. Those who want the lower stress, less decisions to make fantasy baseball experience are welcome to enjoy it. There is a place for it. I simply said I would never want to eliminate the tough decisions and challenges from the higher level formats, that is all. Fair point to make?

[TRAIN]

Driver Love (I used to think that name referred to race car driving but I see now that you are talking about a different kind of driver) -

My request to explain the part that luck plays in golf had nothing to do with you. It had to do with Whiplash's comment about luck and golf. Maybe you need to take a course in reading comprehension.

My response to your golf analogy earlier in the week, was about having control over what happens in golf vs having control over what happens after submitting a starting lineup. So in golf, if you get a bad lie or a bad bounce, you can do something about it because you are in control of the next shot. In the NFBC (outside of the Cutline contest), when you submit your starting lineup and something similar happens, it is out of your control for the next 4 to 7 days.

As far as a contest being more challenging because you have to submit a starting lineup, it may be more challenging because you have to do a lot of research on a player's history in what you think are the matchups and conditions they will be facing in the next 4 to 7 days before inserting them into your lineup over another player on your team. But guess what? You really have no control over what is going to happen in the next 4 to 7 days. So, the outcome of your starting lineup decision doesn't make you a greater player or a lesser player than the guy who doesn't have to submit a starting lineup. You have just worked harder to control something that you ultimately have no control over.

I would rather win or lose based on the performance of ALL of my players that I drafted and FAABd over the course of a whole season, rather than win or lose because I didn't play God well enough for the next 4 to 7 days when submitting a starting lineup.

Again, as you would say, different strokes for different folks. Pun intended.

[Ando]

Driver, the answer is simple for you. Just play Cutline and golf. Leave the analogies alone. Those are obviously not suited for you as is submitting lineups.

Respectfully submitted,
Dr. Ando

[Driver Love]

Driver, the answer is simple for you. Just play Cutline and golf. Leave the analogies alone. Those are obviously not suited for you as is submitting lineups.

Respectfully submitted,
Dr. Ando

Dr ando,

My analogy was right on the mark. The only reason anyone implied otherwise is they made up a point/perspective I did not present. You also seem confused as I like the challenge of submitting lineups.

[whipsaw]

Driver Love - I don't see the analogy of playing a tough golf course and submitting a starting lineup each week. When you play a tough golf course, YOU are in control of the shots you make. You have NO control over unforseen circumstances that can occur in the next 4 to 7 days when submitting a starting lineup each week.

You must not play much golf if you think there's no luck involved in that sport, even at the professional levels.

This is the second reading comprehension hiccup I have seen here in a couple days. Where did I say there is "no luck" involved in golf or on the professional levels? I will save you the time (never mentioned it). The point is/was about levels of challenge. I can play lower level challenge golf on an easier course or pitch n putt course and have fun with it. Just as I can play an easier format fantasy baseball contests that does not challenge me in as many ways or require as many difficult decisions. There is a place for all formats. The point was about levels of challenge and had nothing to do with where luck comes into play. Luck comes into play with all competitions that exist.

I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to TRAIN. Thanks for the lesson in reading comprehension, though.