Not to Beat a Crippled Horse

[Captain Hook]

(I refuse to call it dead but...)

The Dodgers callup of Julio Urias to start Friday is just another reason I think (at least) some pitchers should be allowed to be moved into lineups on Fridays. EVEN if this is restricted to already rostered minor leaguers OR pitchers who were still on the DL on Monday/Tuesday who are then activated Wed>Fri, it would be much better for teams to be able to make that lineup switch.

Urias will likely be limited in innings, certainly in starts so to lose one of his few starts because of prior considerations seems to take enjoyment out of the game for someone who rostered him earlier in the year. (it would be even worse if he or another minor league pitcher were called up in August and would have far fewer chances to start).

[Yah Mule]

I would just like to point out that you beat a dead horse, not a crippled one. You shoot crippled horses, which gives you a fresh supply of dead horses to beat on later. Regarding the lineup argument, I have no horse in that race, living or dead.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I would just like to point out that you beat a dead horse, not a crippled one. You shoot crippled horses, which gives you a fresh supply of dead horses to beat on later. Regarding the lineup argument, I have no horse in that race, living or dead.

You do, however, have a Mule.

[Driver Love]

Just so one can be fully informed. What is the reason that there are no Pitching moves permitted on Friday in the same way Batter moves are allowed? Based on the title of this thread I recognize this topic has been debated in past so forgive me for not being up to speed.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Just so one can be fully informed. What is the reason that there are no Pitching moves permitted on Friday in the same way Batter moves are allowed? Based on the title of this thread I recognize this topic has been debated in past so forgive me for not being up to speed.

We're not interested in turning the NFBC into a steaming-pitchers format. With hitters, everyone has three games on the weekend. That's not the case with pitchers as owners would be encouraged to continually move pitchers in and out of their starting lineups on Fridays.

As for Perry's request, you want to change this game to a streaming pitchers format so that you can start a minor-leaguer who gets called up during the week and starts on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday?? Our rules are designed for a reason and unfortunately with your DC team you won't get Urias's first start unless you started him at the beginning of the week. Sorry.

[Captain Hook]

Yeah Thanks Greg - Urias is not on my DC team but he is on several other rosters

I will bet the teams who did draft him would like to activate him for a start this weekend though

and I fail to see how limited P activations on Friday would promote streaming - they are just pitchers who were "not available to start" on Monday

[Yah Mule]

I would just like to point out that you beat a dead horse, not a crippled one. You shoot crippled horses, which gives you a fresh supply of dead horses to beat on later. Regarding the lineup argument, I have no horse in that race, living or dead.

You do, however, have a Mule.

I have a few crippled Mules. Dying to harness Carlos back up.

[headhunters]

for what it is worth- I agree with greg.

[Driver Love]

Just asking questions here.

Is streaming pitchers bad? If by "streaming" one means picking and choosing which pitcher you play based on matchups. That was just described in a seemingly negative way. Wondering why it is negative.

Isn't that what we do every Monday anyway? Pick which SP's we are going to use based on matchup? The only thing I like about having flexibility with the lineup is when a rainout happens or an injury or on Tuesday they mysteriously decide to skip a guys start and the roster is locked and the fantasy player can't do a thing about it. I am not politicking for pitching moves on Friday. Just trying to learn both sides of the argument.

[KJ Duke]

Just asking questions here.

Is streaming pitchers bad? If by "streaming" one means picking and choosing which pitcher you play based on matchups. That was just described in a seemingly negative way. Wondering why it is negative.

Isn't that what we do every Monday anyway? Pick which SP's we are going to use based on matchup? The only thing I like about having flexibility with the lineup is when a rainout happens or an injury or on Tuesday they mysteriously decide to skip a guys start and the roster is locked and the fantasy player can't do a thing about it. I am not politicking for pitching moves on Friday. Just trying to learn both sides of the argument.

It's bad in the sense that it makes managing a lot more time-consuming, especially for FAAB when you've got to evaluate pitchers for two periods each week to maximize IP. And time-consuming means reducing league count for those with many teams, which is bad for business. The FFPC tried it and lasted one year with an overall main event; they missed their target for number of teams in year one and then pulled the plug prior to year two with an even slower start for signups.

[CC's Desperados]

Just asking questions here.

Is streaming pitchers bad? If by "streaming" one means picking and choosing which pitcher you play based on matchups. That was just described in a seemingly negative way. Wondering why it is negative.

Isn't that what we do every Monday anyway? Pick which SP's we are going to use based on matchup? The only thing I like about having flexibility with the lineup is when a rainout happens or an injury or on Tuesday they mysteriously decide to skip a guys start and the roster is locked and the fantasy player can't do a thing about it. I am not politicking for pitching moves on Friday. Just trying to learn both sides of the argument.

I don't like to post on this subject, but I''l offer some quick thoughts.

A)The NFBC has a long history on the pitching side so does it make sense to change the game in a big way on the pitching side?

B)With the amount of money Fantasy owner spent on their high stakes baseball teams, it doesn't seem fair to take a zero in any week if it can be avoided.

C)In the present structure, a Fantasy owner having extra assets on the pitching side doesn't get the right reward for building a strong pitching base. How many times a year do we have to decide between questionable double starter over a good pitcher with one start? These types of decisions lead to mistakes, but a team trailing in wins and Ks has no choice but to roll up their sleeves at times.

D)If you are fortunate to own more than two closers, your team will be penalized if you pitch three or more relievers especially if they don't produce saves. Saves become a game within the game when a Fantasy owner should be able to be rewarded when they have extra closing arms rather than waste away on the bench.

E)The big fear with bi-weekly moves for pitchers is streaming. They way the system is set it rewards the teams that roll up their sleeve in starting pitching late in the season when they start to chase wins and Ks. With bi-weekly moved, many of those pitching points would gaps in September rewarding the better owners helping the owners that managed well all season.

F)What is the correct competitive balance that a casual player feels he can still compete without requiring extra time?

[COZ]

Just asking questions here.

Is streaming pitchers bad? If by "streaming" one means picking and choosing which pitcher you play based on matchups. That was just described in a seemingly negative way. Wondering why it is negative.

Isn't that what we do every Monday anyway? Pick which SP's we are going to use based on matchup? The only thing I like about having flexibility with the lineup is when a rainout happens or an injury or on Tuesday they mysteriously decide to skip a guys start and the roster is locked and the fantasy player can't do a thing about it. I am not politicking for pitching moves on Friday. Just trying to learn both sides of the argument.

It was thoroughly vetted last year, with strong support for and against it with good arguments on both sides. Read away: http://nfbcforums.stats.com/viewtopic.p ... 75#p178500

[Deadheadz]

B)With the amount of money Fantasy owner spent on their high stakes baseball teams, it doesn't seem fair to take a zero in any week if it can be avoided.

Many people will claim something isn't 'fair' when they end up with a negative result.

Fair means everyone being treated equally and playing by the same rules. Making decisions which may result positively or negatively is the point of the game. Managers strategy or style of playing the game is what sets us apart from each other. That and research, hunches and luck.

Some of us have the opinion that allowing pitcher changes mid week (even limited changes) rewards those who have time to devote to doing the research and making those changes more than once per week. No longer a level playing field.

An extreme example of this would be the way a standard ESPN Rotisserie Baseball league allows instant pickups of free agents with no FAAB and only with waivers for dropped players or players newly added to the pool.
Most serious fantasy players avoid these leagues because they're often dominated (or at least spoiled) by the managers who have time to stare at Twitter all day and pick up players based on breaking news and/or stay up all night to get the players who come off waivers at 3am ET.

Yes, if all the players in a one-off league have the time to do these things it can be considered fair. Go at it. But the mostly random way NFBC leagues get filled plus the overall standings prizes mean there are too many lifestyles to maintain fairness while adding opportunities for additional lineup changes.

Yes, it's hard for each and every one of us to get bad news after lineups lock but since we are all in the same boat it remains fair.

What you're asking for are called Mulligans (I think) which are fine in friendly competition but have no place in pro sports.


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[Gates]

How do you feel about not having Urias in?

[KJ Duke]

How do you feel about not having Urias in?

I don't know about Hook, but I'm ok with it.

[Driver Love]

KJ duke and CC Desperados,

I appreciate the great responses to my question. I found it interesting that the word "Streaming" is used with a negative connotation to it. Maybe I am looking at it with a broad definition but don't we all "stream" each week when we set our lineups? Don't we plug in the guys we think that particular week (based on matchups, number of games, etc) have the best chance to produce?

Over the years I have seen many discussions and debates on rules and often decisions are based on what rule decision would result in the most "work" and "time invested" by the fantasy owner. There seems to be a balance that must be aimed for now that individual owners can put in numerous entries into the same event and have to manage a lot of teams. I get both sides of the debate.

[KJ Duke]

KJ duke and CC Desperados,

I appreciate the great responses to my question. I found it interesting that the word "Streaming" is used with a negative connotation to it. Maybe I am looking at it with a broad definition but don't we all "stream" each week when we set our lineups? Don't we plug in the guys we think that particular week (based on matchups, number of games, etc) have the best chance to produce?

When replacing a hitter for the weekend you lose the benched hitter's stats, with a one-start SP you lose nothing. So if by rule you're allowed to swap pitchers mid-week you'll need to "stream" a continuous flow of SPs through your lineup each week just to stay competitive (Games Started would jump by ~60%) with the rule change. You don't need to stream hitters to stay competitive.

The negative connotation comes from the fact that quantity can overcome quality.

You can make the same case when comparing 12 team leagues to 15 team leagues. In 12-teamers you can "stream" your bench slots on a weekly basis because there always are quality starting players in the waiver pool, not so with 15-teamers which makes the 15-team contests more quality-dependent and 12 teamers more quantity-dependent.

[Deadheadz]

The negative connotation comes from the fact that quantity can overcome quality.

You can make the same case when comparing 12 team leagues to 15 team leagues. In 12-teamers you can "stream" your bench slots on a weekly basis because there always are quality starting players in the waiver pool, not so with 15-teamers which makes the 15-team contests more quality-dependent and 12 teamers more quantity-dependent.

Well said.
The way it stands now, trying to stream pitcher in a 15 team league will likely cost you so much in poor ERA and WHIP that it's nearly impossible to win your league even if you top all the hitting categories and place high in the all the counting stat pitching categories.

Having said that, if you found success in streaming pitchers in a 15 team league under the current rules, you'd be displaying some amount of skill in knowing which "good" pitchers to avoid and which "bad" pitchers to own for such a strategy. Of course, luck and attrition factor into it over the long haul too.

Opening up a mid week addition of pitchers would lessen the skill/judgement required and reward time/effort instead.
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[Driver Love]

Kj Duke,

Thanks again for the clearer differentiation of streaming in the context it is being talked about here. I do understnad the point CC desperados makes too though. If you set your pitchers on Monday and then a starter gets bumped from his start or is rained out or strains a muscle in the shower and is announced to be missing his start, it would be nice if you could lean on your depth (fantasy skill) and plus someone in from the bench assuming you have a viable candidate. This obviously would not apply if a guy pitched on Monday and then later in the same week hurts self. I am not politicking for it. Just saying I see the point on both sides.

[Deadheadz]

Kj Duke,

Thanks again for the clearer differentiation of streaming in the context it is being talked about here. I do understnad the point CC desperados makes too though. If you set your pitchers on Monday and then a starter gets bumped from his start or is rained out or strains a muscle in the shower and is announced to be missing his start, it would be nice if you could lean on your depth (fantasy skill) and plus someone in from the bench assuming you have a viable candidate. This obviously would not apply if a guy pitched on Monday and then later in the same week hurts self. I am not politicking for it. Just saying I see the point on both sides.

Yes, Mulligans would be nice.
But we play for big money so for every one guy that wants a do-over, there are 14 in his league who do not.

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[Driver Love]

Deadheadz,

Not sure where you get "mulligans" from. If your SS gets hurt Tuesday, do you take him out on Friday and replace him with a player from your bench assuming you are skilled enough to have good depth and have an option on your bench? Assuming the answer is yes, is that a "mulligan" or is that a good fantasy baseball move by a good owner who has a deep team or players with positional versatility that allows him to fix the problem of the injured SS?

I don't see it as a mulligan, I see it as more control over your team, a way to limit luck a little and another opportunity to utilize good fantasy baseball skill.

[Deadheadz]

Deadheadz,

Not sure where you get "mulligans" from. If your SS gets hurt Tuesday, do you take him out on Friday and replace him with a player from your bench assuming you are skilled enough to have good depth and have an option on your bench? Assuming the answer is yes, is that a "mulligan" or is that a good fantasy baseball move by a good owner who has a deep team or players with positional versatility that allows him to fix the problem of the injured SS?

I don't see it as a mulligan, I see it as more control over your team, a way to limit luck a little and another opportunity to utilize good fantasy baseball skill.

It's a Mulligan if a manager sets his roster using the best up-to-date information on Monday morning and then based on news that occurs after the lineup lock time he then wants to take a pitcher out of the active lineup.

We've said it before, if you want the flexibility of daily lineup changes there are leagues like that out there for you. NFBC has a game with established rules yet the sour grapes crew want to get do-overs when the news happens after lineups lock.

You want to be able to swap out a pitcher who turns up injured on Tuesday because he hasn't pitched yet but you don't want the other managers in your league to be able to make swaps if their pitchers have pitched. It's a double standard and that's why it's unfair. Keep the rules as is and everyone is treated fairly and plays by the same rules.

It's not 'unfair' that your pitcher got injured or that your prospect was called up after the lineups locked. It's fate/luck/bad reporting/lying MLB managers, but it's not unfair.

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[Driver Love]

deadheadz,

I don't think simply discussing these topics = "sour grapes." Many of the rules changes that have streamlined the NFFC and NFBC into the best fantasy games around came from these kind of conversations and at times on message boards. I personally am fine with the way things are now and am simply asking questions because there are valid points on both sides of the topic.

I am struggling to understand your point about unfairness and I personally don't "want" anything other than friendly productive conversation. I suppose I was simply asking why the rules to make offensive moves on Friday for weekend play don't also apply to pitchers for weekend play. Rather than trying to understand how and why you think I want to make pitching moves while others can't (not sure where that came from) let me ask this. Do you consider it a "mulligan" when someone pulls their 3B out of the lineup on Friday because he pulled his hamstring on Tuesday and replaces him with another player on his bench for the weekend?

Is that a mulligan? Or is that good fantasy baseball management and a process that makes the game more fun?

[Greg Ambrosius]

James, I think we've beaten this crippled horse into a dead horse.

Bottom line is that if you allow pitcher moves each Friday owners MUST make moves twice a week. With stat categories so closely contested in the NFBC, just one more strikeout could be the difference between first place and second place. And in streaming pitcher leagues, that means every Friday you better take out a SP who pitched on Thursday with a middle reliever on Friday to possibly get a strikeout or two on the weekend. And of course you are constantly streaming SPs and moving them in and out of your starting lineups. Just forgetting to do this on one Friday could be the difference between first place and second place.

Yes, there's more strategy in a game format like that. Heck, if you want to go one step further there's more strategy in a daily moves league, but we don't run those here either. Why? Because the vast majority of fantasy players can't afford the time to do daily move leagues. And that includes streaming pitcher leagues too.

Easy to figure out. Carry on and say goodbye to this crippled horse.

[King of Queens]