The Reality Of High-Stakes Games And Back-End Software

[Greg Ambrosius]

You know, it's no fun working your ass off each day and taking a beating, but it certainly comes with the territory when expectations are so high and past history shows that results can be obtained with hard work. And all of you have invested good money in the NFBC, so criticisms are justified whenever the software isn't working exactly as you expected. You are justified in hollering at me since I'm the front-man for the NFBC. I'm taking all the bullets as I've done since 2004 when I started defending STATS Inc., our back-end provider the last six years.



While I understand your frustration, the reality of the situation is that building our own back-end is the only way to go in today's marketplace. I know, I know, if the back-end isn't good enough then we'll lose many of you great customers in future years and maybe even this year. Maybe everyone boycotts football because of the distrust in the software. I totally understand all of this and I also understand the reality of the alternatives.



Let me go backwards in my NFBC history and then analyze the future because it includes STATS, Inc. and the software we used for six interesting years.



Back in the fall of 2003 when Krause Publications agreed to start the NFBC, KP had no web programmers and certainly no IT personnel to run a game. At the time, Allstar Stats, Fanball, TQ Stats and STATS Inc. battled for what we called third-party software, or "white label" games. They all ran commissioner products or games and adding one more game to their duties was the way to build this side of the business. High-stakes games presented a high-profile audience to these back-end companies and a little extra revenue.



A good friend of mine at STATS liked the concept of the NFBC and agreed to build the site and run the back-end for a fair price. They did baseball and football for us, while also running games for EA Sports, Madden Football, SI.com and a few other company sites that obviously paid more bills than I was paying them. Without STATS, I knew that F+W Media couldn't run the games and would be left without a product. And without the bigger companies paying for the commissioner products STATS was maintaining, there was no reason to do the NFBC and NFFC.



In the 7 years since then, fewer companies are now running back-end software for these type of contests because the commissioner landscape is changing. When Yahoo and ESPN.com run free commissioner leagues for millions of players, it makes it tough for others to compete. You don't see Allstar, TQ or even STATS battling for this business anymore. In fact, STATS is doing so few commissioner products now that had Fanball not bought this business there's no guarantee that they would have continued to do the back-end for the NFBC or NFFC in 2010. F+W certainly couldn't do it and we'd be with a new company trying to build a game site like we're doing now.



I love the guys at STATS and I defended all their work for six years when many NFBC members blasted them. It was a solid site that by the sixth year had most things down pat. Last year was a year without many hiccups in baseball and football, yet many people would still tell me how much they hated the back-end. I defended all of it until we parted ways and still owe all of those guys there a debt of gratitude.



But while talking to my good friend at STATS today, it's obvious that there was little to no chance of working together had F+W not sold the business. STATS has gone more international with their business, running cricket games in India, China and throughout Asia, along with many other stat businesses. They are deeper into college sports than ever before and doing so many cool things with the pro sports teams. Running a high-stakes back-end for a minimal fee and being on call 24/7 doesn't make sense for some of the bigger companies today. For the prices we all need to pay to make ends meet in this low-margin business, it's a wonder anyone is still doing the back-end for us.



Other high-stakes companies have to find suitable companies now to do this for them and the options are more limited than they were in 2004. WCOFF has RT Sports. I'm not sure what anyone else is doing. Again, in 2004 you had four reputable companies fighting for your business. Not today.



Which brings us to today and the NFBC's back-end with Fanball. Of course we all wish we had the exact same code as last year and then the additions that Fanball has added to make the site more up to date. Admittedly, we didn't change the look or feel of the NFBC game site through six years with STATS, but again that was on us because F+W didn't pay them to do the extra work. We just needed a functionable back-end at the lowest possible price. That was what we asked for.



What we need now is to build this back-end together and OWN IT. We built the STATS back-end together with suggestions and improvements and some would say it took six years to get it almost completely right. We have the chance to do that here in less time and OWN IT. Improve it and keep making it better and have it as our own. Always tearing it apart isn't getting it better. And what's the alternative? Hire another company to build a new back-end from scratch? Has that made it better before?



Look at past history even outside of the NFBC and NFFC. I was patient with STATS because I saw what happened the other way. TQ Stats did WCOFF's back-end in 2002 and 2003 and the ripping of the back-end by their customers was easily 10 times worse than what we have today on the NFBC. AND THAT WAS FOR FOOTBALL!! Lenny switched from TQ for baseball in 2004 and went with The Sporting News, which failed to get standings or stats up for the first two weeks and was a mess all year long. WCOFF switched away from TQ Stats in 2004 or 2005 and it was two years of building a product before a tough weekend put an end to that association. I think the guys at RT Sports are a solid partner, but again you're hiring a company to help you build the back-end rather than owning it.



Maybe that's the way the go, but I honestly don't think so. It's why I don't keep looking back like so many people do here on our boards. I'm just focused on improving each aspect of our site and making sure everything runs perfectly every day. We're not doing it perfectly, but that's the goal. And if we can keep the improvements coming each day, each week, we'll hopefully have what STATS built and more. That's why I write down all legitimate suggestions and prioritize them at the start of each day for John and his team.



Today I had 14 items to improve or add to the site. They feel all of them are doable. Maybe we can't add 14 more, but hopefully we can keep adding to the features and improving them as we go forward. The goal is to build this site, improve this site and make it what most of you want. I don't want to build this again with a different company. Another "rebuild" isn't good for any of us. We need to get this right here because nobody is lining up to do this for us at the prices we paid STATS from 2004-2009.



If we can't get it done, you'll definitely tell us with your dollars going forward. And then Fanball pays the price. But I think some people actually like the way things are improving and want to help us make it better. And again, all I can do is take your opinions, your suggestions, your criticisms and turn them into positives by improving the site. We've apologized. Now we have to go forward together or without some folks and we just have to keep building this better.



History has shown that changing back-ends every other year isn't the answer. Our old option has moved out of this space and rightfully so. We have something we can certainly build on and hopefully John and his team will keep showing you that going forward.



Thanks for reading.



[ April 19, 2010, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

[Return of the Aces]

Greg,



The NFBC is a great concept and has been run extremely well since its inception. After the draft, our only interface with the NFBC is the website, and as you are painfully aware, it has been a complete disaster this season.



There are incremental improvements that show signs of life, but it is less time for talk and more time for results.



There is still plenty of time to build back all that goodwill the NFBC has generated, but everyone's patience will not last forever. At this point, I am sure that a solid majority or more will not be hesitant to return next season. But, if these apparently simple changes cannot be worked into the system and more bugs keep popping up like players missing from the player pool, the negatives may start to really outweigh the positives.



Let's see these fixes get done without any further delay.



[ April 19, 2010, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Return of the Aces ]

[GOD Loves You]

Greg, one question that has yet to be answered is.......Fanball has seriously been HORRIBLE for a while, why did it take 2 guys from WI to get the ball rolling on the improvements? If you, Tom and Geoff were to "move-on," how could any NFBC/NFFC player ever trust them?



I would really like to know why the company has ignored their customers' complaints, ignored the lack of proficient software.......basically ignored putting out a good product.....for years. Why?



I know you cannot honestly answer here, but I would love to hear from an employee of Fanball as to why it took acquiring the NFBC to get their heads out of their rears?? I know I am not "owed" this answer, but would love to hear an honest one.

[KJ Duke]

Greg, a good view of things for us players to keep in mind - there are no good outsource options. But that doesn't explain why the internal team has been so bad.



Is it (1) fanball won't fund proper development, (2) the programmers aren't capable, or (3) the programmers don't give a rats a** what we (or you for that matter) want?

[bjoak]

Today I had 14 items to improve or add to the site. I wonder if priorities are an issue. And I am trying to be helpful and I hope I won't get a defensive reply, but maybe asking everyone what they think is most important to do first would be helpful.



I don't want 14 improvements two months from now. I want one improvement by this weekend: allow us to sort by more than just 2010.



That's it. When it's done, focus on something else. The next most important thing. Following the boards, I can't believe the effort you went through to get wish lists or flagging or whatever you call that luxury. It just seems that there are radically more important things to get right before you add something like that.



If it helps, go in the order STATS did things. I could sort by last 7 days at the beginning of my tenure here in 2005. BB stats for pitchers were available in 2005. Wish lists came along three or four years later and no one missed them when they weren't here. Not to pick on one thing, but getting the more basic stuff done first seems a lot more important to me.

[Captain Crunch]

I continue to find it noteworthy that some people are making the same complaints that I have been making for months and they receive a response and I get nothing - and I'm including some interesting exchanges elsewhere that I will keep to myself.



I am a customer, but more important right now is that I am an unhappy customer. And, at least as bad, is that I'm unhappy about being an unhappy customer. I believe hugely in this game/contest/product and have been stunned into snippiness by, to me, the inexcusable inability of fanball to roll this out in time. I see this as a continuing issue that fanball has had over the years, and I was not at all surprised that they messed it up.



However, I'm equally stunned that someone isn't reaching out to the unhappy customers to see what it is that they are unhappy about.



I've harped about customer service. Among other things, customer service to me means that publicly, at least, your customers are always right, and if they are unhappy you say: I'm sorry, we'll fix it, and it will never happen again. I'm not interested in some of the editorial opinion that has been offered: I agree that many comments have been petty, but that's the sad reality of message boards and the Internet. The challenge, and it's a tough one, is to let them slide.



I'm through discussing this publicly, and so will not be back to view any responses. I will be interested to see if anyone is interested in reaching out to one of their customers - or not.

[Gekko]

Originally posted by bjoak:

Following the boards, I can't believe the effort you went through to get wish lists or flagging or whatever you call that luxury. It just seems that there are radically more important things to get right before you add something like that.

here here. sorry i was late to looking in depth at the system. i should have been doing that instead of taking care of my baby i guess

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

[QB] Greg, a good view of things for us players to keep in mind - there are no good outsource options. But that doesn't explain why the internal team has I made this post to let folks know what the landscape is today in this area of the market. And honestly, to help us continue to build what we have because there's no going back. There's nothing to go back to. And if everyone thinks the alternative is starting over, well, I don't see that as the answer.



I'm not going to keep answering the rest. If you really think all of the people at Fanball don't give a rats a** about this product or the customers or the future of this space, then, well, okay. I can't change any of your minds anymore. And I'm done trying. I can only keep making improvements and we have a few to announce now. I'm done debating what we have and what you folks expect. Fight amongst yourselves; I'm working on today's game like I always have been. I'm off this beat, patrolling the boards. Self patrol them boys. Good luck all.

[GOD Loves You]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

[QB] Greg, a good view of things for us players to keep in mind - there are no good outsource options. But that doesn't explain why the internal team has I'm not going to keep answering the rest. If you really think all of the people at Fanball don't give a rats a** about this product or the customers or the future of this space, then, well, okay. I can't change any of your minds anymore. And I'm done trying. [/QUOTE]I didn't join the masses when they were "high-fiving" after the acquisition and I'm not joining the mob now, I'm simply going by what I have experienced in 20+ leagues using their software.

Past experiences and what is currently occurring only reinforces the thoughts about Fanball being inferior by myself and many previous customers.



Eh, I guess I will never get an answer to my question because it's to straight forward and can only be answered by admitting failures.....and that is something today's society doesn't prefer.



I am curious, Greg, how many leagues have you participated in using their software? Serious question, not being a donkey.

[Piggy]

Hang in there Greg,,,I know you guyz are doing everything you can to make this better...

[Snord35]

Greg Thanks for this post. I'm in the camp that is unhappy with the software and would like to see results ASAP. But this really does show that it is not easy moving to a new site and the thought process for moving and improving the future of the NFBC. A lot of people are not happy but a post like this is better than a sorry we messed up. Understanding the situation your in and knowing your end goal is nice to know painted out with a little inside info.



Keep up the good work and keep the fixes/upgrades coming.

[Texas 2 Step]

When you started advertising for the 2010 season,you should have stated somewhere that you were starting tobuild your "own back-end".Customers might have been a little more understanding of the bugs in a new system.That's called Truth in advertising.But the truth would have cut into profits.So yes being the front man you should take all the bullets.

[Captain Crunch]

I rest my case. There is no Customer Service here.

[Glenneration X]

Originally posted by Captain Crunch:

I rest my case. There is no Customer Service here. There was no reason given for this statement.

Just curious what your basis is for this argument.



Glenn

[Cornhusker]

Still no daily emails 1 month into the season. I would definitely rate the first month of customer service for Fanball as an F. It will have to be an "A" the rest of the way to retain the majority of their customers next year especially if some other major sites join in on the high stakes online market.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Captain Crunch:

I rest my case. There is no Customer Service here. Thanks for bringing up this thread again. Wow, it's fun to read my initial post from 10 days ago. Thankfully we've come a long ways in 10 days.



I'm not sure how Tom or I are letting you down with customer service and since I can't identify message board names with customer names then I don't know who this is. Contact me at [email protected] and I'll do what I can to address your concerns. I trust they are many, but I'm here to help you. Thanks.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Cornhusker:

Still no daily emails 1 month into the season. I would definitely rate the first month of customer service for Fanball as an F. It will have to be an "A" the rest of the way to retain the majority of their customers next year especially if some other major sites join in on the high stakes online market. If we get an F for customer service because you're not getting emails, then that's something we can address. NOBODY got daily email updates of their teams before last week. I apologize for that, but that's just the facts. Now some folks are getting them and others are getting blocked likely from their providers.



Make sure you check that you want emails in your MY SETTINGS area and if that still doesn't work contact us. We're trying to get everyone daily email updates and they are going out now, but some must be getting blocked. I'll look into that again today.



As for next year, well, everyone needs to get through this year first. We have a lot of baseball ahead of us, a back-end that has come a long ways in 10 days and the same strong customer service from me, Tom and Geoff that you've had from Day One. Sorry if you don't believe that, but we're always here to help where needed. Contact me at [email protected] if you need any individual help.

[billywaz]

Originally posted by Cornhusker:

Still no daily emails 1 month into the season. I would definitely rate the first month of customer service for Fanball as an F. It will have to be an "A" the rest of the way to retain the majority of their customers next year especially if some other major sites join in on the high stakes online market. This can go to Captain Crunch too!......



Greg and Tom should NEVER be associated with poor customer service.



They bust their humps to make this the best game possible. If you were with them the previous years (before the merger with Fanball), you would totally understand this. Saying there is poor customer service when Greg spends his anniversary working on fixing things shows that you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about.



They are trying, but the Fanball staff (minus Greg and Tom, and mainly Ryan and the IT crew) are the one's who deserve an F......thus far.



Things are getting better, as it seems like something is done daily to improve the site. That obviously isn't good enough for the "anal baseball crew" (sometimes me included), but try looking at the glass being half full sometimes.

[Quack & Willy]

Originally posted by billywaz:

[QUOTE]



They are trying, but the Fanball staff (minus Greg and Tom, and mainly Ryan and the IT crew) are the one's who deserve an F......thus far.



Agree, and yet it appears the FRATBOY got a promotion for his pump and dump.



Shakeup at Fanball

April 28th, 2010



FSB.com learned Wednesday night of some apparent big changes at Fanball.



An anonymous source has told us that about a third of the company’s staff has been let go, including CDM Fantasy Sports co-founders Carol Matthews and Brian Matthews. (CDM was acquired in 2006 by Fanball’s parent company.)



FSB.com has independently confirmed that the purge did take place and that Ryan Houston, publisher and senior VP of business development, has been promoted.



Word is that some recent ventures have underperformed financially, though FSB.com has yet to confirm any specifics on that front. We’ll bring you more details as they become available.

[billywaz]

Originally posted by Quack & Willy:

quote:Originally posted by billywaz:

[QUOTE]



They are trying, but the Fanball staff (minus Greg and Tom, and mainly Ryan and the IT crew) are the one's who deserve an F......thus far.



Agree, and yet it appears the FRATBOY got a promotion for his pump and dump.



Shakeup at Fanball

April 28th, 2010



FSB.com learned Wednesday night of some apparent big changes at Fanball.



An anonymous source has told us that about a third of the company’s staff has been let go, including CDM Fantasy Sports co-founders Carol Matthews and Brian Matthews. (CDM was acquired in 2006 by Fanball’s parent company.)



FSB.com has independently confirmed that the purge did take place and that Ryan Houston, publisher and senior VP of business development, has been promoted.



Word is that some recent ventures have underperformed financially, though FSB.com has yet to confirm any specifics on that front. We’ll bring you more details as they become available. [/QUOTE]WOW....Carol Mathews signed my check when I won the Sporting News Fantasy Football Challenge back in 1995!



I would hope there were "legit" reasons why these people were let go.



The FRATBOY???



[ April 29, 2010, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: billywaz ]

[King of Queens]

Originally posted by Quack & Willy:

Shakeup at Fanball

April 28th, 2010



FSB.com learned Wednesday night of some apparent big changes at Fanball.



An anonymous source has told us that about a third of the company’s staff has been let go, including CDM Fantasy Sports co-founders Carol Matthews and Brian Matthews. (CDM was acquired in 2006 by Fanball’s parent company.)



FSB.com has independently confirmed that the purge did take place and that Ryan Houston, publisher and senior VP of business development, has been promoted.



Word is that some recent ventures have underperformed financially, though FSB.com has yet to confirm any specifics on that front. We’ll bring you more details as they become available. Congrats to Ryan!

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Quack & Willy:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by billywaz:

[qb] [QUOTE]Word is that some recent ventures have underperformed financially, though FSB.com has yet to confirm any specifics on that front. Wow, what great reporting this is above. Where did this come from? I will gladly address the changes that took place at Fanball.com on a different thread, but I'll give you facts rather than speculation like above.

[Walla Walla]

Greg, Actually I hope you post that thread.

I'd like to hear the facts.

[Captain Crunch]

Billywaz: Thanks for your contribution, but you appear to be referring to dedication to the product - which I have _never_ questioned. I am talking about aspects of customer service, which I have raised here and elsewhere, and which appear to escape you and others.



Now Greg sez to e-mail. You mean like all the other times I've e-mailed? Beginning two years ago and as recently as just prior to the start of this season - mainly to try and discuss the issue of player names and IDs, and recently to try and get my ids sorted out. No response - to any. Why on earth would I bother now?



Same thing seems to go for the boards here. Some people get responses, some don't. Among other things, I've posted about player names and IDs (I 'know' they were a headache at the start of this season) both last year and this - and crickets both times.



And the same goes for cdm charlie. E-mailed him to try and discuss it - nothing. And fwiw, same goes for cbs, stats, mlb, tht and others.



Now, I've spent enough of my time on this and I'm sure you believe that you've spent more than enough of yours. As I said elsewhere, I believe hugely in the nfbc, BUT, I'm absolutely horrified at the hatchet-job inflicted upon it by fanball. Truly, it is the triumph of style over substance. Just one disaster after another, and it will take a miracle of biblical proportions to get me to spend any money here next year. That should be appalling news to a business owner - someone wants to spend their money but won't.

[Sebadiah23]

Captain, the stuff about player IDs, do you think maybe Greg was confused about what you were asking for? It also might end up sounding fishy like you are trying to steal stat data or something. I know in reality you are an excel and programming afficienado and you just want to be able to analyze your team and the player pool using automated tools, but I have to admit that such a request might scare me away too.



Just something to consider.



Craig (ROLL)