Pitchers coming off DL, Peavy and Beachy

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:43 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I don't think it needs fixing - the only downside is that some players will get their feathers ruffled because they hadn't thought of it.I have Peavy on three NFBC teams and I'm one of those that hadn't thought of it.

Even if I had, I'd probably prefer that it be eliminated in the future if possible. I think it provides an undeserved competitive advantage, one that rewards a couple things we're trying to eliminate as much as possible in fantasy sports, luck & the use of loopholes.

Still, if it hasn't been addressed in the rules, it's legal and anyone who noticed the potential for this move (unlike me ) should be allowed to utilize it without feeling bad about it or any stigma associated with it. [/QUOTE]My thoughts exactly on all accounts. Well stated.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:27 pm

Originally posted by Gates:

Greg,

In regards to what you just wrote (2 starts from 2 different pitchers) although I do not find this move let's say appropriate, do we consider this to be legit. I am in a position to "use" Peavy for that purpose and if this is considered ''ok'' , I am not stupid enough to pass on it. Again, I want to make it clear that I do not think it should be legit, but then again, if somebody else uses it, I would be stupid not to.

Thanks It's certainly okay to do this. We can't predict when players will come off the DL, so it's certainly legal for someone to replace a DL player today for the weekend's games. If he comes off before Friday and pitches, there is nothing in the system to stop this. Yes, we all talked about this last year and nobody really brought this up as a rules change at season's end and I didn't think of it, either. Not that we could have implemented it with the quick change to STATS, but NOBODY brought this up as a change at season's end.

That being said, I did talk to STATS and there is something we can put in place to make sure that if a DL player does come off the DL and pitches during the Monday-Thursday period that we can prevent another player from taking his spot on the weekend. That's something I will talk to them about further and see if we can implement that for 2012. Just don't let me or any of us forget about it at season's end.

For now, it's okay to do what the system allows.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:44 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

The one talked about in the first post allows owners to get two starts from the same spot if they have SPs on their reserve who only start on Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

Still doable, but there's certainly no guarantee that the second SP will have a great weekend performance. But I understand the logic to correct this one more than the other example I cited. Thanks for pointing these out and worthy of looking into for 2012. Greg, the less commmon occurrence as described above gets you 2 starts for the week from one roster spot, which is no different than having a 2-start pitcher for that week - except that it takes two players to accomplish it, one of them has to be DL'd to begin the week and have a scheduled start prior to Friday and you have to have another pitcher who will pitch during the weekend. So you need a perfect setup to use it, and of course hope it's actually worthwhile to use both the last guy on your staff for that start and another guy's first start off the DL.

I don't think it needs fixing - the only downside is that some players will get their feathers ruffled because they hadn't thought of it. But the only difference between "using" the system to bench a 2-start guy with one bad matchup and getting an extra start in the above situation is that one is an obvious strategy move and the other is a subtle strategy move. More strategy, more better in my view. [/QUOTE]I agree that the stars have to align perfectly, but this week alone we're seeing two possible examples and some folks will have a SP on reserve to help the cause. But I agree this is a rare occurrence and rarely happens, but I've talked with STATS about this and we think there is a possible solution to making this better in 2012. I'm going back down there next week and will discuss this a little further. It's all good and for now trump the system and hope that BOTH pitchers excel. When that second pitcher gets bombed, you all won't feel so smart!!!

Just kidding, of course.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:15 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

When that second pitcher gets bombed, you all won't feel so smart!!!

Just kidding, of course. I'm more worried about that first pitcher... had reservations about using both Peavy and Beachy this week on various teams. Peavy wasn't very good last time in his first start off the DL, and with a young guy like Beachy who's made only had a handful of major lge starts you don't know how he'll respond. I decided to start both so let the chips fall ... at least I had fun going over my options.

Catch · Post by **Catch** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:51 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

You guys probably know this better than me, but has this happened before this week as well? If so, how many times has it happened? It seems like a rare occurrence, but you guys would know that better than me. Let me know and we'll proceed accordingly. Thanks. Greg,

Yes, week 7...same pitcher involved, Jake Peavy. He started on Wednesday May 11th. And "savvy" owners taxied him prior to his activation.

Catch · Post by **Catch** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:03 pm

Originally posted by Hells Satans:

[QUOTE]

If the software was programmed correctly, the SP should lock in for the week the second he was activated from the DL. The software runs fine. For example, Peavy gets activated first thing Wednesday morning....any owner that still has him in his lineup, will not be able to taxi him. Now the "savvy" owners have already taxied Peavy as soon as the Monday deadline expired.

These player moves have been (system) allowed the last few years. It is not a new thing that came about this season.

Sebadiah23 · Post by **Sebadiah23** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:30 pm

Using a DLed pitcher (Like as an extreme case, Strasburg) to AVOID part of a two-start week is a very well known strategy that people generally agree is slightly shady but in the realm of fair. Some people call it the "Gekko" or the "Gekko loophole", but whatever, its fair.

Pitching two different pitchers in the page week who BOTH ACTUALLY PLAY is a whole different animal. While it will be rare, I think its way more shady in comparison to the strategy to avoid a start.

While not the same exact situation, I was quite surprised earlier this year when Kyle McClellan pitched and got hurt and was immediately DLed, and the software actually let me put in a pitcher from my bench for a second start. It ended up being Brett Anderson and he got bombed and DLed too, but regardless, the move felt naughty to me. Why would I get rewarded for a pitcher being DLed when most pitchers only pitch once a week? Shouldn't pitching in a game lock a pitcher in for week? To me its that simple. If a pitcher doesn't pitch, regardless of the reason, you should be able to take him out midweek. Otherwise, no. Isn't that the spirit of the rule?

-Craig

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:53 am

Originally posted by Catch:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

You guys probably know this better than me, but has this happened before this week as well? If so, how many times has it happened? It seems like a rare occurrence, but you guys would know that better than me. Let me know and we'll proceed accordingly. Thanks. Greg,

Yes, week 7...same pitcher involved, Jake Peavy. He started on Wednesday May 11th. And "savvy" owners taxied him prior to his activation. [/QUOTE]Okay, so this has happened once this year. And as KJ said earlier, there's a lot of risk in starting either Peavey or Beachy on Wednesday coming right off the DL. So at least we see it is a rare occurrence, but like I said previously this is probably a doable fix if we want to close that loophole in 2012. I'll discuss with STATS and let's address this again at season's end. For now, the DL rule is working for 99% of the game and we all agree there are two loopholes that can be fixed if needed. Thanks all.

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:33 am

This is the discussion from 2009. It is lengthy post from Greg informing us how it was going to be handled. I assumed that it was going to stay this way going forward.

Greg Ambrosius

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Member # 4

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2009

02:42 PM

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I want everyone to be aware of how the Friday DL rule is going to be run the rest of the 2009 season. We are not changing the rule or even the wording of it, but folks should realize that we are manually tweaking it slightly from our end.

Here is the current rule: 13. Submitting Starting Lineups: The weekly NFBC deadline for setting starting lineups is 6:55 p.m. ET each Monday. Any game that occurs before that, NFBC owners are required to get those players involved in their starting lineups five minutes before the start of those games. Owners are also allowed to remove a player (or players) who is officially on the DL from their starting lineup with one of their players from their reserve roster before each Friday's first game as long as the position eligibility works out. Players must officially be on Major League Baseball's DL list according to STATS and the NFBC by 12:01 a.m. on Friday for this move (or moves) to take effect for the weekend games.

Our current programming with STATS is time-stamped when the pitcher/player officially comes off the DL according to Major League Baseball. Thus you can reserve that pitcher/player if you started him in your lineup up until the time he officially comes off the DL. In the past, that would allow you to, say, start John Lackey with his DL designation, reserve him on Tuesday, get his stats from his start during the week and replace him with a SP who may pitch on the weekend and get both starts/results.

Nothing in the rules says this should be set up this way and I'm sure it happens very rarely. But going forward, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he comes off the DL before Friday's first game, as the rule states, then that pitcher will be locked in your starting lineup even if you tried to take advantage of the software. STATS is keeping track of each pitcher who comes off the DL during the Monday-Friday time period and will e-mail me with that list and then we will look at the weekend starting lineups to make sure nobody is getting double the stats, good or bad. In the last two weeks, only two relievers have come off the DL during the week and no NFBC owner has substituted for them during the week. It's been an easy, painless process for STATS and myself.

So this is just a heads up going forward. We have no problem with you starting a DL'd pitcher, but if he does come off the DL Monday through Friday then he will just remain in your starting lineup as you originally planned. We won't allow a substitute for the weekend if that pitcher is already active and it happened during the week.

This only applies to pitchers. Hope this makes sense. Good luck all the rest of the way. We will make any changes on Saturday morning when I'm alerted to all changes and honestly it takes only a couple of minutes with the way STATS has this set up. We'll also e-mail any affected owners going forward.

Good luck all.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:54 am

Copy and paste for more discussion from '09 and how it was going to be handled going forward:

http://nfbcboards.stats.com/cgi-bin/ult ... 1;t=004146

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:37 am

I believe Dawg's posts change everything. If there's been a precedent set, that precedent should be adhered to without question.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:05 am

GX - not unless you're going to go back over two years and re-run standings. What may have been the intent in 2009 obviously wasn't last year or this year. And most importantly, nothing got into the rule set about this as Greg mentioned earlier.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:44 am

Originally posted by Dawg:

This is the discussion from 2009. It is lengthy post from Greg informing us how it was going to be handled. I assumed that it was going to stay this way going forward.

Greg Ambrosius

Moderator

Member # 4

Member Rated: 5

Icon 1 posted May 04, 2009

02:42 PM

Profile for Greg Ambrosius Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote

I want everyone to be aware of how the Friday DL rule is going to be run the rest of the 2009 season. We are not changing the rule or even the wording of it, but folks should realize that we are manually tweaking it slightly from our end.

Here is the current rule: 13. Submitting Starting Lineups: The weekly NFBC deadline for setting starting lineups is 6:55 p.m. ET each Monday. Any game that occurs before that, NFBC owners are required to get those players involved in their starting lineups five minutes before the start of those games. Owners are also allowed to remove a player (or players) who is officially on the DL from their starting lineup with one of their players from their reserve roster before each Friday's first game as long as the position eligibility works out. Players must officially be on Major League Baseball's DL list according to STATS and the NFBC by 12:01 a.m. on Friday for this move (or moves) to take effect for the weekend games.

Our current programming with STATS is time-stamped when the pitcher/player officially comes off the DL according to Major League Baseball. Thus you can reserve that pitcher/player if you started him in your lineup up until the time he officially comes off the DL. In the past, that would allow you to, say, start John Lackey with his DL designation, reserve him on Tuesday, get his stats from his start during the week and replace him with a SP who may pitch on the weekend and get both starts/results.

Nothing in the rules says this should be set up this way and I'm sure it happens very rarely. But going forward, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he comes off the DL before Friday's first game, as the rule states, then that pitcher will be locked in your starting lineup even if you tried to take advantage of the software. STATS is keeping track of each pitcher who comes off the DL during the Monday-Friday time period and will e-mail me with that list and then we will look at the weekend starting lineups to make sure nobody is getting double the stats, good or bad. In the last two weeks, only two relievers have come off the DL during the week and no NFBC owner has substituted for them during the week. It's been an easy, painless process for STATS and myself.

So this is just a heads up going forward. We have no problem with you starting a DL'd pitcher, but if he does come off the DL Monday through Friday then he will just remain in your starting lineup as you originally planned. We won't allow a substitute for the weekend if that pitcher is already active and it happened during the week.

This only applies to pitchers. Hope this makes sense. Good luck all the rest of the way. We will make any changes on Saturday morning when I'm alerted to all changes and honestly it takes only a couple of minutes with the way STATS has this set up. We'll also e-mail any affected owners going forward.

Good luck all.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship 'this appears to be what i was referring to. ever since that came out i (and i'm sure others) followed the rule (including this season). good find Dawg.

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:55 am

I guess when Greg said

"Nothing in the rules says this should be set up this way and I'm sure it happens very rarely. But going forward, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he comes off the DL before Friday's first game, as the rule states, then that pitcher will be locked in your starting lineup even if you tried to take advantage of the software."

It was the "going forward" part that I took from this in 2009 that led me believe that it was going to be prohibited. Did I miss reading where Greg stated this was going to be allowed again?

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:02 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

I believe Dawg's posts change everything. If there's been a precedent set, that precedent should be adhered to without question. Yep, I would agree wholeheartedly. People that thought this is how it worked would not even bother to make that move unless they checked the message board. That entire pitcher DL rule should just be eliminated in my opinion. You put a pitcher in that slot then live with it. Or allow weekend changes like the monopolycofb, which I doubt people want.

[ June 22, 2011, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:03 am

Originally posted by Dawg:

I guess when Greg said

"Nothing in the rules says this should be set up this way and I'm sure it happens very rarely. But going forward, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he comes off the DL before Friday's first game, as the rule states, then that pitcher will be locked in your starting lineup even if you tried to take advantage of the software."

It was the "going forward" part that I took from this in 2009 that led me believe that it was going to be prohibited. Did I miss reading where Greg stated this was going to be allowed again? ... "I want everyone to be aware of how the Friday DL rule is going to be run the rest of the 2009 season". ...

Dawg, it's not 2009. As Greg mentioned yesterday, he forgot to get any changes into either the programming or the rules and he therefore is allowing these types of moves for the balance of year. And if he forgets again next year, we'll have another year of extra strategy.

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:10 am

That argument makes little sense in my opinion. If something is established one year, it is an obvious assumption that is how it will work going forward unless ever stated otherwise.

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:17 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

I don't think it needs fixing - the only downside is that some players will get their feathers ruffled because they hadn't thought of it.I have Peavy on three NFBC teams and I'm one of those that hadn't thought of it.

Even if I had, I'd probably prefer that it be eliminated in the future if possible. I think it provides an undeserved competitive advantage, one that rewards a couple things we're trying to eliminate as much as possible in fantasy sports, luck & the use of loopholes.

Still, if it hasn't been addressed in the rules, it's legal and anyone who noticed the potential for this move (unlike me ) should be allowed to utilize it without feeling bad about it or any stigma associated with it. [/QUOTE]I am a big believer in finding loopholes in the rules for whatever league I am playing in - I also have used those loopholes until they are closed. Often - my use of whatever loopholes I find will be specifically to shine a light on them so they CAN be closed eventually. As an assistant commish in a couple leagues I play in I also often serve the role of "Roster Police" where I monitor everyone's moves for the week to make sure everything's kosher in regards to the rules of that particular league.

The difference in the NFBC IMO is that as a contest, when you find a loophole you know to exist, do you use it or do you bring it to the attention of the powers that be for a clarification before using it. So, I don't quite agree with Glenn's statement - if you used the loophole - you did so knowing what you were doing. Should you feel bad or get ripped for using it? No. But perhaps the next time you find a loophole you shoot and email to Greg instead. Food for thought.

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:18 am

I know things go wrong sometimes. ie: Opening Day last year and this DL rule we are talking about. Its just disappointing when something is clearly stated and then turns around to be allowed. Its not the end of the world that this is going to be allowed to continue, just disappointing.

I am sure KJ's stance would be upheld in a court of law but that doesn't make it right either!

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:37 am

It's great that Matt found that post from 2009 and if we handled things differently that year then I guess we did. But as I told him via email, there is nothing in the rules to allow me to legally go in and change lineups today. It's obvious that nobody playing in 2011 had requested that this rule be changed before this week or that anyone else even took advantage of this. It was addressed early in 2009 and nothing much after that. Certainly it wasn't requested last year and we didn't have this in place with Fanball. And nobody asked for this here in 2011.

In talking with STATS, there isn't an exact time stamp when a player comes off the DL. But obviously we can look into preventing someone on your DL who pitches during that week from being moved to reserve and another pitcher inserted for the weekend games. It's not a simple programming change, but something we think we can do for 2012. But nothing is in the rules to address this right now and we can't just manually go in and change lineups without having that in the rules.

As for changing the entire DL rule on weekends because of this example?? I guess you could look at it that way and just roll the luck factor out there each week. But I think the DL rule does improve the game and this loophole is one we can fix if folks think it needs fixing.

It's good to address this, so thanks for the past post on this and the discussion now. What would be an NFBC season without some loophole controversy??

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:39 am

Originally posted by Ryan C:

I am a big believer in finding loopholes in the rules for whatever league I am playing in - I also have used those loopholes until they are closed. Often - my use of whatever loopholes I find will be specifically to shine a light on them so they CAN be closed eventually. As an assistant commish in a couple leagues I play in I also often serve the role of "Roster Police" where I monitor everyone's moves for the week to make sure everything's kosher in regards to the rules of that particular league.

The difference in the NFBC IMO is that as a contest, when you find a loophole you know to exist, do you use it or do you bring it to the attention of the powers that be for a clarification before using it. So, I don't quite agree with Glenn's statement - if you used the loophole - you did so knowing what you were doing. Should you feel bad or get ripped for using it? No. But perhaps the next time you find a loophole you shoot and email to Greg instead. Food for thought. Ryan, I don't view this is a loophole - in fact I would like to see it explicitly allowed in the rules so there is no controversy. The DL rule is there to benefit teams with injured players, this application of it may be a rarely occurring opportunity, but still an opportunity to potentially benefit teams that are carrying injured pitchers. Thus, I think this application of the rule serves its purpose, rather than circumventing it as a loophole might do.

[ June 22, 2011, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Oaktown · Post by **Oaktown** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:47 am

Wow...I assumed this loophole was long closed from the messages in 2009.

So in summary, we can use one spot for 2 starts like this? I thought the whole point of the concussion in 2009 was that was closed and done and not allowed.

Don't really care either way, but it is definitely good to know.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:52 am

Originally posted by Oaktown:

Wow...I assumed this loophole was long closed from the messages in 2009.

So in summary, we can use one spot for 2 starts like this? I thought the whole point of the concussion in 2009 was that was closed and done and not allowed.

Don't really care either way, but it is definitely good to know. You are allowed to move DL designated players out of your starting lineup before the weekend's games anytime after Sunday night. In this rare occurrence, the DL designation stayed on both pitchers until they came off today. So yes, the system did allow you to start them Monday-Thursday and to move them to reserve Friday-Sunday before they officially lost their DL designation today. If you had another pitcher in reserve, you get those results Friday-Sunday.

As someone noted, this happened one other time this year and it could happen again. But we have never corrected this in our system and it's something we can discuss updating for 2012 if there's a strong feeling that it needs updating.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:57 am

I just went back and browsed through that original 2009 thread. I had forgotten that Lance had retired over this.

How many more must be sacrificed before Greg learns the error of his ways???

Just kidding, but Ryan, I stand by both my earlier statements even though they may seem to contradict one another. My original statement was made because I don't believe a rule should be created or changed mid-stream in a contest. Therefore with no rule in place disallowing the loophole, at the time all I believed should have been done is to make sure the loophole was addressed & closed for future seasons. Now that I've been reminded that there's already been a precedent set, I believe that precedent should be followed no matter when it was made, 2011, 2009, 1909, doesn't matter. In a court of law, they follow precedent from milleniums earlier.

KJ, aren't you half lawyer? You know precedent is everything.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:08 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

I just went back and browsed through that original 2009 thread. I had forgotten that Lance had retired over this.

How many more must be sacrificed before Greg learns the error of his ways??? I would have to say that there were MANY other reasons that Lance retired from baseball. I hardly doubt this was the one that pushed him over the edge.