Pitchers coming off DL, Peavy and Beachy

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:44 am

What I find really disturbing about what's happening here is that something is being rewarded that has nothing to do with what this contest is supposed to be about.

There are those who argue this increases strategy or rewards savy owners, savy at what? Fantasy baseball? Remember, this is a fantasy baseball contest, your skills at drafting, FAAB, setting lineups, and team management are the things that are supposed to be rewarded, not how savy your computer skills might be.

The same things that were rewarded in fantasy baseball back when we called lineups in by phone or kept score via pen & paper are the same things that should be rewarded today. The addition of computer software to the game was done to make the process easier and faster, not to change what skills were rewarded, not to create non-fantasy baseball related ways to create an edge, whether you want to call them loopholes or anomalies or whatever. What do they have to do with fantasy baseball?

Let's keep this contest about what it's supposed to be about. If not, lets play an EA Sports video game contest and really reward those who are computer savy. And with video games, they at least make the cheat codes available to everyone.

Dub · Post by **Dub** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:47 am

Originally posted by Outlaw:

Greg/Tom- I'm new here (first time player) and spent a couple of grand in entrance Fees here this year. After reading all these comments and the last one from the current 1st place leader, I feel like most here have no clue or idea about the loophole. When you think of almost 1000 players/Teams and probably no more than 50 or so regular readers/posters on this forum I would say that all those that don't come here often, if at all, have any clue or idea about this "loophole". Since it seems to have been an ongoing discussion for at least a few years, it makes no sense why it does not get addressed. Greg, Tom and STATS as leadership/owners of this business should ensure its integrity and fairness for all players. I suggest the following to accomplsih this:

1. Close the loophole however you choose.

2. Change the written rules to be clearer regarding the whole "when to change a DL pitcher"

3. Email and post the new rules to every player.

Frankly I dont care what is done, but it needs to be clear for everyone and if it means writing an example into the rules, so be it.

Mike McElroy I am surprised at the amount of people that don't know about this. Any software that allows for future line up changes allows for this. You can also do this same strategy in Yahoo. You can start a pitcher that has a DL designation, then go to the next day and DL him again which allows you to play with an extra player until his next start.

For the record, I used this last year here and it was reversed on me. The Stats were taken out and not allowed. I cant remember the specifics other than it being reversed.

I side with the camp to allow - talk about this "strategy" in the weekly newsletter so most know about it.

Outlaw · Post by **Outlaw** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:19 am

Unless I am missing something, Why is it so hard to lock all pitchers in a starting line-up whether on DL or not until Friday. If still on DL or they go DL during the week, then allow the pitcher change to be made on friday if an owner so chooses. I dont buy the software cannot be changed, only because lock times change every monday and friday each week depending when those games start. So my point is, someone is coding the lock/start times each of those days every week and what players are eligible to be changed. And it is also coded for Fridays on whether a particular pitcher is on the DL and eligible for a change.

Greg/Tom/STATS need to fix it and not leave it up for discussion on the forum. They need to fix for those that dont follow the forum closely. I say it frankly, because, as has been stated, its been "talked about" and "discussed" for a few years from what others have said here.

Fix it, code it and eliminate it!

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:38 am

Originally posted by Dub:

For the record, I used this last year here and it was reversed on me. The Stats were taken out and not allowed. I cant remember the specifics other than it being reversed.

are you 100% positive this happened LAST year?

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:51 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

For the record, I used this last year here and it was reversed on me. The Stats were taken out and not allowed. I cant remember the specifics other than it being reversed.

are you 100% positive this happened LAST year? [/QUOTE]That doesn't surprise me. If it would have been allowed last year, we would have had a 10 page discussion on it, just like we did in 2009 when it was originally allowed and just like we are now.

Dub · Post by **Dub** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:59 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

For the record, I used this last year here and it was reversed on me. The Stats were taken out and not allowed. I cant remember the specifics other than it being reversed.

are you 100% positive this happened LAST year? [/QUOTE]I wouldn't say 100% , but I would say pretty sure it was last year. It was discussed on the MB and Greg said they were going to reverse, so I let it go figuring it was everybody. I'm sure someone can do a search to find it in the MB postings.

Dub · Post by **Dub** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:00 am

BTW, I am much happier this year that my pitching has been healthy and I haven't had to use the strategy.

Money · Post by **Money** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:34 am

Originally posted by Dub:

BTW, I am much happier this year that my pitching has been healthy and I haven't had to use the strategy. Member Rated:

posted April 21, 2009 08:30 AM

It was brought to my attention last week that there was a small loophole in our Friday DL rule that involved pitchers and this week I've reached out to STATS to make sure we close this up. Currently, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he gets called up during the week you obviously get his stats for that start. That happened last week when Max Scherzer and Scott Baker were called up and pitched on Wednesday.

With our current setup, no owner can move those players out of their starting lineup once they are officially off the DL. However, if you made your roster move on Monday or Tuesday and moved those pitchers to your reserve roster before they were taken off the DL you were getting a replacement for the weekend games. In essence, you had a shot at two starts even though your DL player was on the active roster during the weekend. That was NOT the intent of the rule and I apologize for not closing this loophole earlier.

Going forward, we will manually reverse any move involving a pitcher coming off the DL during the week if this happens again. And we know it will happen again as John Lackey and Ervin Santana are two good examples of guys who will pitch in the minors over the next couple of weeks and likely make a mid-week start. If you start the week with them in your starting rotation anticipating their start, then don't expect to replace them and get a second start by another pitcher. We will cancel that move out and those pitchers will remain in your active roster, as they should.

This is now more work for Tom and me, so don't be afraid to point out these examples to us when you see them. STATS will send me a report each Friday night and in fact we'll reverse those moves on Saturday if needed. The intent of the rule is to help owners who suffer early-week injuries, not for owners to manipulate the rule for a two-start week.

Thanks all and I'm sorry I didn't notice this earlier. Good luck and thanks for the help going forward.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship

Money · Post by **Money** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:42 am

Originally posted by Money:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

BTW, I am much happier this year that my pitching has been healthy and I haven't had to use the strategy. Member Rated:

posted April 21, 2009 08:30 AM

It was brought to my attention last week that there was a small loophole in our Friday DL rule that involved pitchers and this week I've reached out to STATS to make sure we close this up. Currently, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he gets called up during the week you obviously get his stats for that start. That happened last week when Max Scherzer and Scott Baker were called up and pitched on Wednesday.

With our current setup, no owner can move those players out of their starting lineup once they are officially off the DL. However, if you made your roster move on Monday or Tuesday and moved those pitchers to your reserve roster before they were taken off the DL you were getting a replacement for the weekend games. In essence, you had a shot at two starts even though your DL player was on the active roster during the weekend. That was NOT the intent of the rule and I apologize for not closing this loophole earlier.

Going forward, we will manually reverse any move involving a pitcher coming off the DL during the week if this happens again. And we know it will happen again as John Lackey and Ervin Santana are two good examples of guys who will pitch in the minors over the next couple of weeks and likely make a mid-week start. If you start the week with them in your starting rotation anticipating their start, then don't expect to replace them and get a second start by another pitcher. We will cancel that move out and those pitchers will remain in your active roster, as they should.

This is now more work for Tom and me, so don't be afraid to point out these examples to us when you see them. STATS will send me a report each Friday night and in fact we'll reverse those moves on Saturday if needed. The intent of the rule is to help owners who suffer early-week injuries, not for owners to manipulate the rule for a two-start week.

Thanks all and I'm sorry I didn't notice this earlier. Good luck and thanks for the help going forward.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship [/QUOTE]A bit more from the same thread. It goes 12 pages. The post from Greg above started the entire thread back in 2009.

posted April 21, 2009 05:14 PM

quote:

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Greg, do you really think its a good idea to change a rule that has been in place for the last two years ... 3 weeks AFTER the season has started?

Those who don't like it call it a loophole, but in reality it is what it is and has been for two years, a strategic tool.

I most certainly do and we're working on it right now. It will be implemented this week whether I have to do it by hand or automatically. Case closed.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship

[ June 23, 2011, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Money ]

Dub · Post by **Dub** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:54 am

Originally posted by Money:

quote:Originally posted by Money:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

BTW, I am much happier this year that my pitching has been healthy and I haven't had to use the strategy. Member Rated:

posted April 21, 2009 08:30 AM

It was brought to my attention last week that there was a small loophole in our Friday DL rule that involved pitchers and this week I've reached out to STATS to make sure we close this up. Currently, if you start a pitcher who is on the DL and he gets called up during the week you obviously get his stats for that start. That happened last week when Max Scherzer and Scott Baker were called up and pitched on Wednesday.

With our current setup, no owner can move those players out of their starting lineup once they are officially off the DL. However, if you made your roster move on Monday or Tuesday and moved those pitchers to your reserve roster before they were taken off the DL you were getting a replacement for the weekend games. In essence, you had a shot at two starts even though your DL player was on the active roster during the weekend. That was NOT the intent of the rule and I apologize for not closing this loophole earlier.

Going forward, we will manually reverse any move involving a pitcher coming off the DL during the week if this happens again. And we know it will happen again as John Lackey and Ervin Santana are two good examples of guys who will pitch in the minors over the next couple of weeks and likely make a mid-week start. If you start the week with them in your starting rotation anticipating their start, then don't expect to replace them and get a second start by another pitcher. We will cancel that move out and those pitchers will remain in your active roster, as they should.

This is now more work for Tom and me, so don't be afraid to point out these examples to us when you see them. STATS will send me a report each Friday night and in fact we'll reverse those moves on Saturday if needed. The intent of the rule is to help owners who suffer early-week injuries, not for owners to manipulate the rule for a two-start week.

Thanks all and I'm sorry I didn't notice this earlier. Good luck and thanks for the help going forward.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship [/QUOTE]A bit more from the same thread. It goes 12 pages. The post from Greg above started the entire thread back in 2009.

posted April 21, 2009 05:14 PM

quote:

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Greg, do you really think its a good idea to change a rule that has been in place for the last two years ... 3 weeks AFTER the season has started?

Those who don't like it call it a loophole, but in reality it is what it is and has been for two years, a strategic tool.

I most certainly do and we're working on it right now. It will be implemented this week whether I have to do it by hand or automatically. Case closed.

--------------------

Greg Ambrosius

Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship [/QUOTE]Yeah- it seems like a lot of thinks that happened in 2010 are missing (like the standings). Its very hard to re-create.

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:59 am

I think an even bigger question is whether Greg should or should not "change things on the fly" Greg insisted in one of his posts yesterday talking about an email conversation we had "But as I told him via email, there is nothing in the rules to allow me to legally go in and change lineups today" As you can see from the post above he had no problems doing it in 2009 and slammed the door on KJ by saying "Case Closed"

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:17 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

There is nothing that can be changed about our setup involving the DL rule this year, and as Lindy said several people benefit from the DL rule in another way when they get a start from a player who then goes on the DL before Friday and they get another start on the weekend from a different SP. Not every loophole can be foreseen.

If it helps to put an example of this DL "loophole" we'll gladly do that in the next few NFBC newsletters we send out to every NFBC owner and alert them of how this works. We're not trying to hide anything; honestly it wasn't even on my radar before being mentioned on the boards here. We'll alert everyone because I'm sure it may be available again before season's end.

The bigger discussion is if we need to close this loophole and all the others. So carry on with these two discussions in place:

1) Do we want the pitcher DL rule to continue in all NFBC leagues or should that be changed slightly?

And 2) If we keep the DL rule, do we close this loophole or keep it the way it is? Do we also have to close the loophole that Lindy mentioned, allowing folks a second start on the weekend if a pitcher has already pitched during the week? This is getting the same benefit, yet that's what the DL rule was originally designed for: not getting a zero on the weekend from a player injured during the week. I'm travelling this week, so won't be real active here, but I look forward to the feedback.

Thanks and best of luck all. Tweaking the system through the first seven years has made the NFBC a better game and I'm confident we can solve this one as well. Greg,

Regarding 2011, my only beef is not knowing you could do this. Intuitively, I think most people think of the NFBC is a non-streaming pitcher competition. I think your idea of notifying everyone of the DL pitcher streaming tactics via the newletter is a very good one. Also you should include it in the FAQ, as a form of an answer to "Can you ever stream pitchers in the NFBC?".

Going forward into 2012, I lean toward the school that no streaming of pitchers be allowed, even DL'd ones.

But I'm also fine with the DL-pitcher streaming, so long as it is well publicized and fairly known to all. E.g... as long as examples of DL pitcher streaming are clearly stated in the rules and in the FAQ.

Robert

[ June 23, 2011, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Rainiers ]

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:19 am

To be fair to Greg, I remember some board conversations last year dealing with the deadline that lineups needed to set by Friday. I believe the precedent was set that it was to be 5 minutes before the 1st game on Friday OR if there were no early games then it was the usual 6:55 pm est.

Some people wanted it changed after the 1st week to follow the Monday deadline of locking the early games AND at 6:55 for all others. Greg chose to keep it the way it was after the 1st week ( I am unsure if it was explicitly spelled out in the rules)

So whether or not to change the rules on the fly has certainly come up before and Greg's decisions have gone both ways. I know he has the final say in all of these matters and they can be difficult to decide. All you need to do is read through this thread to see all the people on both sides of the fence

TParsons · Post by **TParsons** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:46 am

Originally posted by Dawg:

To be fair to Greg, I remember some board conversations last year dealing with the deadline that lineups needed to set by Friday. I believe the precedent was set that it was to be 5 minutes before the 1st game on Friday OR if there were no early games then it was the usual 6:55 pm est.

Some people wanted it changed after the 1st week to follow the Monday deadline of locking the early games AND at 6:55 for all others. Greg chose to keep it the way it was after the 1st week ( I am unsure if it was explicitly spelled out in the rules)

So whether or not to change the rules on the fly has certainly come up before and Greg's decisions have gone both ways. I know he has the final say in all of these matters and they can be difficult to decide. All you need to do is read through this thread to see all the people on both sides of the fence This is no longer the 2nd period deadline either. The second period deadline now has 2 parts:

1) The earliest of 6:55 or 5 minutes prior to the game for all players except pitchers that were on the DL as of the Monday deadline, but in your active lineup.

2) For the aforementioned pitchers, the deadline is whenever IT decides to remove the "DL tag" from that pitcher.

It is your job to be at the computer to ensure you get that switch in prior to the point when IT removes the tag. Any team that was at their computer 24/7 and got Beachy out of their 2nd period lineup before IT removed the tag was able to replace him for period 2 this week. Any team that wasn't at their computer 24/7, and was going by the stated deadline of the earliest of 6:55 or 5 minutes prior to the game, was not able to replace Beachy in their 2nd period lineup. So two teams with the same player can't make the same move for the 2nd period, even though the deadline in the rules says they have until Friday to do so. Makes logical sense, doesn't it? Seems fair...

[ June 23, 2011, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: TParsons ]

Dawg · Post by **Dawg** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:54 am

Originally posted by TParsons:

quote:Originally posted by Dawg:

To be fair to Greg, I remember some board conversations last year dealing with the deadline that lineups needed to set by Friday. I believe the precedent was set that it was to be 5 minutes before the 1st game on Friday OR if there were no early games then it was the usual 6:55 pm est.

Some people wanted it changed after the 1st week to follow the Monday deadline of locking the early games AND at 6:55 for all others. Greg chose to keep it the way it was after the 1st week ( I am unsure if it was explicitly spelled out in the rules)

So whether or not to change the rules on the fly has certainly come up before and Greg's decisions have gone both ways. I know he has the final say in all of these matters and they can be difficult to decide. All you need to do is read through this thread to see all the people on both sides of the fence This is no longer the 2nd period deadline either. The second period deadline now has 2 parts:

1) The earliest of 6:55 or 5 minutes prior to the game for all players except pitchers that were on the DL as of the Monday deadline, but in your active lineup.

2) For the aforementioned pitchers, the deadline is whenever IT decides to remove the "DL tag" from that pitcher.

It is your job to be at the computer to ensure you get that switch in prior to the point when IT removes the tag. Any team that was at their computer 24/7 and got Beachy out of their 2nd period lineup before IT removed the tag was able to replace him for period 2 this week. Any team that wasn't at their computer 24/7, and was going by the stated deadline of the earliest of 6:55 or 5 minutes prior to the game, was not able to replace Beachy in their 2nd period lineup. So two teams with the same player can't make the same move for the 2nd period, even though the deadline in the rules says they have until Friday to do so. Makes logical sense, doesn't it? Seems fair... [/QUOTE]I realize that it has been changed. I was only pointing out that Greg ruled to keep the lineup deadline the same as it was done in the 1st week of last year. It was changed in the rules this year to reflect the changes you listed

Cocktails and Dreams · Post by **Cocktails and Dreams** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:02 am

Yep, that is the biggest problem Parsons. Not supposed to be factors like that in play. IT guy taking a **** could cause the DL tag getting removed ten minutes later and allowing one man to get the move in. That same man having to take a **** and the IT got not having to, could result in the move not being made. We are supposed to guess when IT is going to untag a guy? If this nonsense is going to be allowed then the only way it is fair, while adhering to the deadlines is if anyone that is on the DL, keeps that DL tag until after the Friday deadline. It is one of dumbest rules I have ever heard of in my life that one man with Beachy and a weekend pitcher now has the weekend pitcher in, while another man with the same weekend pitcher cannot put him in for Beachy even though the friday deadline is not passed. There are supposed to be two deadlines we have to meet each week to get lineups in. Sad to see that is no longer the case. Hard to believe anyone actually believes this is a good rule to have. One of the dumbest rules ever. Will have to reconsider entering so many teams next year if there is stuff like this to worry about. Two deadlines is plenty. That is if I ever play fantasy leagues again after the wcoff sucked the energy and passion right out of me.

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:07 am

It seems that the software is imperfect and doesn't align with the rules creating a gray area subsequently ruled on by a human - therefore not everyone will be pleased with the solution.

It's possible the manual override decision in 2009 is no longer feasible in 2011. The amount of leagues probably tripled since then and who knows what kind of effort it took THEN to check rosters. But I don't know, I'm just speculating here.

I believe fanball's software did not allow such movement as I don't recall a situation coming up last season. Maybe none presented itself though.

I too recall the ruling from 2009 and did not make an attempt to swap out mid week DL pitchers in 2011. I soon discovered thru another player that that STATS issue was still open ended. I figured if my competition is coming at me with pipes then I better lay down my willow branch and grab a pipe myself.

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:10 am

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

Yep, that is the biggest problem Parsons. Not supposed to be factors like that in play. IT guy taking a **** could cause the DL tag getting removed ten minutes later and allowing one man to get the move in. That same man having to take a **** and the IT got not having to, could result in the move not being made. We are supposed to guess when IT is going to untag a guy? If this nonsense is going to be allowed then the only way it is fair, while adhering to the deadlines is if anyone that is on the DL, keeps that DL tag until after the Friday deadline. It is one of dumbest rules I have ever heard of in my life that one man with Beachy and a weekend pitcher now has the weekend pitcher in, while another man with the same weekend pitcher cannot put him in for Beachy even though the friday deadline is not passed. There are supposed to be two deadlines we have to meet each week to get lineups in. Sad to see that is no longer the case. Hard to believe anyone actually believes this is a good rule to have. One of the dumbest rules ever. Will have to reconsider entering so many teams next year if there is stuff like this to worry about. Two deadlines is plenty. That is if I ever play fantasy leagues again after the wcoff sucked the energy and passion right out of me. A big ditto from me. Firm, fair and consistent seem to have gone out the window.

Money · Post by **Money** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:39 am

Has the NFBC altered it's position on this subject over the course of the past two years? Greg ruled on it two years ago and called it "Case Closed". Once again this is a situation that benefits only the long standing members. They already have a major advantage (experience) over everyone else in the field.

This is like the Alias situation and has created another unfair playing field. Congratulations to those in the know. How many other rules are being taken advantage of that the recent newcomers have no idea about.

This sucks.

Money · Post by **Money** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:45 am

Here's the link on the discussion and the decision from the NFBC two years ago. I was not around for this. Many of the same players were.

http://nfbcboards.stats.com/cgi-bin/ult ... 1;t=004078

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:53 am

Just for kicks, I just re-read the rules. Is the Peavy & Beachy moves even allowed by the rules? According to the written wording of the rules, the pitcher DL switch is to be made on Fridays, no mention of Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, or Thursdays.

Copied & pasted directly from the Main Event rules:

Team owners also are allowed to remove a pitcher (or pitchers) who is officially on the DL from their starting lineup and replace him with a pitcher from their reserve roster on Fridays.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:28 pm

Jumping in once again.

Josh Beckett won't pitch this week. If we had the 'No pitches m-th rule, he and dl'ed pitchers alike could be replaced on Friday.

Carry on.