Pitchers Rule

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am

I don't usually start a topic on rule changes.

The NFBC has been very progressive over the last few years in keeping up with what players want. Most players like to have as much control over a team as possible.

The Friday hitters change is a result of that forward thinking and most everybody enjoys that we can line up different hitters against different staffs.

The pitching is the problem. Streaming pitchers is something to be avoided according to Greg and probably most players.

The system we have now isn't working. It has loopholes that could be defined as strategy, but we would be taking the word 'defined' itself to another level.

Originally put in use to help teams with dl'ed pitchers, its usage now is to actually get a dl'ed player to aid teams.

And now, during the last two weeks of the season, streaming is legal.

It's a rule that has to go.

There are two options in my mind.

1. Forget about dl'ed pitchers and make pitchers a one week change. Period.

2. If a pitcher hasn't thrown a pitch Monday-Thursday, he is eligible to be taken out of the Friday lineup and replaced with a benched pitcher.

I like both options over what we have now.

The rule in place works better for some then others in weeks 1-24, then provides a streaming buffet for everybody in weeks 25 and 26.

In short, it is not a good rule.

[ September 12, 2011, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:22 am

We won't allow pitcher moves next year on Friday's. Just hitters. The intent of the rule, as all of you know, was to avoid zeros during the last three days of the week when players landed on the DL early in the week. This was the intent for hitters and it sometimes worked for pitchers who unexpectedly went on the DL on Tuesday or Wednesday before pitching. But we can see that the rule is not as effective for pitchers.

We'll simplify it next year and leave it for hitters.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:05 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

2. If a pitcher hasn't thrown a pitch Monday-Thursday, he is eligible to be taken out of the Friday lineup and replaced with a benched pitcher.

Even simpler, allow pitchers to be moved at any time during the week until they throw a pitch. Why lock a player that hasn't played yet?

This would: (1) eliminate streaming, (2) eliminate the DL rule, and (3) allow everyone to make better use of their bench by waiting on players who may be questionable because of injury or manager decisions.

[ September 12, 2011, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

TParsons · Post by **TParsons** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:19 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

2. If a pitcher hasn't thrown a pitch Monday-Thursday, he is eligible to be taken out of the Friday lineup and replaced with a benched pitcher.

Even simpler, allow pitchers to be moved at any time during the week until they throw a pitch. Why lock a player that hasn't played yet?

This would: (1) eliminate streaming, (2) eliminate the DL rule, and (3) allow everyone to make better use of their bench by waiting on players who may be questionable because of injury or manager decisions. [/QUOTE]If you were to do that, you would have to differentiate between starters and relievers, which would be hard considering some teams moving players in and out of the rotation/pen. I guess you wouldn't have to, but I would not be alright with a team in my league starting a closer on his roster for Monday's game and that closer not pitching the first 2-3 games, so they swap him out for a starter later in the week when the closer only has 3 games in order to get a save opp the rest of the week.

Either way, it's still much better than what's currently in place. Loopholes should never be left open. You're just asking people to find ways to manipulate the system and bypass controls in the future for personal gain if you allow loopholes to remain.

I also agree w/ Dough regarding the last 2.5 weeks. As I stated in the other thread, regardless of the intention of this rule, it has turned into a streaming contest. I think everybody knew it would. It could end up being the difference for money spots for several of my leagues. In the future I vote for keeping the rules consistent throughout.

[ September 12, 2011, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: TParsons ]

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:36 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

We won't allow pitcher moves next year on Friday's. Just hitters. The intent of the rule, as all of you know, was to avoid zeros during the last three days of the week when players landed on the DL early in the week. This was the intent for hitters and it sometimes worked for pitchers who unexpectedly went on the DL on Tuesday or Wednesday before pitching. But we can see that the rule is not as effective for pitchers.

We'll simplify it next year and leave it for hitters.

Simple is good. Does this mean no pitchers moves the last 2.5 weeks of the season as well?

[ September 12, 2011, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Rainiers ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:37 am

Originally posted by TParsons:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

[qb]

2. If a pitcher hasn't thrown a pitch Monday-Thursday, he is eligible to be taken out of the Friday lineup and replaced with a benched pitcher.

As I stated in the other thread, regardless of the intention of this rule, it has turned into a streaming contest. I think everybody knew it would. [/QUOTE]So nobody has even made any Friday moves yet and this is already a streaming contest?? WOW. Folks AT MOST could move six pitchers in over 2 weeks -- 12 moves in all -- and this is a streaming contest?? C'mon guys, I enjoy rules debates as much as the next person and I understand how everyone hates something new, but let's see if this works and then make sound decisions. The intent is that a lot of MLB teams make pitching changes in the last two weeks based on innings pitched, minor-league callups, clinching the pennant already, etc., and this is a way to take the luck out of the game.

I've been accused of many things Ty as you know, but creating a streaming contest has not been one of them. I'll gladly change rules that didn't work, but let's see how this one goes first. Not all teams that load up on two-start starters benefit and not everyone can move in pitchers every Friday without affecting their hitting lineups, so let's see how it plays out. Yes, this could affect money finishes which is what it's meant to be. Skill should over-ride luck in this contest.

TParsons · Post by **TParsons** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:56 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by TParsons:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

[qb]

2. If a pitcher hasn't thrown a pitch Monday-Thursday, he is eligible to be taken out of the Friday lineup and replaced with a benched pitcher.

As I stated in the other thread, regardless of the intention of this rule, it has turned into a streaming contest. I think everybody knew it would. [/QUOTE]So nobody has even made any Friday moves yet and this is already a streaming contest?? WOW. Folks AT MOST could move six pitchers in over 2 weeks -- 12 moves in all -- and this is a streaming contest?? C'mon guys, I enjoy rules debates as much as the next person and I understand how everyone hates something new, but let's see if this works and then make sound decisions. The intent is that a lot of MLB teams make pitching changes in the last two weeks based on innings pitched, minor-league callups, clinching the pennant already, etc., and this is a way to take the luck out of the game.

I've been accused of many things Ty as you know, but creating a streaming contest has not been one of them. I'll gladly change rules that didn't work, but let's see how this one goes first. Not all teams that load up on two-start starters benefit and not everyone can move in pitchers every Friday without affecting their hitting lineups, so let's see how it plays out. Yes, this could affect money finishes which is what it's meant to be. Skill should over-ride luck in this contest. [/QUOTE]Nice of you to take what I said out of context. I said the last 2.5 weeks are a streaming contest, not the entire season. If you don't believe the last 2.5 weeks are a streaming contest, I suggest you take a look at this weeks FAAB pickups and the rosters of those teams that are still active and have FAAB $ to spend. There is no doubt in my mind that the last 2.5 weeks will be a streaming contest in pitching. The intent of the rule may not have been this, but that's what is happening. You say "Skill should override luck in this contest." I don't think streaming pitchers is especially skillful.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:10 am

Ty, I don't see the need to distinguish between a starter or reliever (which would cause more complications, which everyone seems to want to avoid ... because then you have to define who is and is not a starter).

Just lock any pitcher for the entire week as soon as he throws a pitch - whether he is on the bench or in your lineup, he locks.

[ September 12, 2011, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:13 am

Greg,

I think TParsons has a point, when you are evaluating whether to keep the pitchers switch-out rule for the last two weeks of the year, be aware that some, including myself, are using it as a way of streaming pitchers. I think that this strategy will help me catch up in the Wins Category, as I am behind the eight ball there. It will also help my K's. Teams just out of the money can use it as a possible way to catch up on ERA and Whip as well.

I will get 14 starts this week, with two full-time closers. But I'm not close to streaming the most starting pitchers...Check out what CCs Desparados is doing in my Main Event League...note that he is on pace to get 18 starts in week 26:

CC'S DESPERADOS (9/12 to 9/15)

NAME 9/12 9/13 9/14 9/15 9/16 9/17 9/18 STATUS POS

Bailey, Homer P CIN ChC ChC ChC ChC Mil Mil Mil Active P

Carmona, Fausto P CLE - @Tex @Tex @Tex @Min @Min @Min Active P

Hudson, Daniel P ARI @LAD @LAD @LAD - @SD @SD @SD Active P

Huff, David P CLE - @Tex @Tex @Tex @Min @Min @Min Active P

Lackey, John P BOS - Tor Tor TB TB TB TB Active P

Masterson, Justin P CLE - @Tex @Tex @Tex @Min @Min @Min Active P

Millwood, Kevin P COL - @Mil @Mil SF SF SF SF Active P

Niemann, Jeff P TB @Bal @Bal @Bal @Bos @Bos @Bos @Bos Active P

Wells, Randy P CHC @Cin @Cin @Cin @Cin Hou Hou Hou Active P

BENCH 9/12 9/13 9/14 9/15 9/16 9/17 9/18 STATUS POS

Lowe, Derek P ATL Fla Fla Fla - NYM NYM NYM Bench B

Miley, Wade P ARI @LAD @LAD @LAD - @SD @SD @SD Bench B

Slowey, Kevin P MIN - @KC @KC - Cle Cle Cle Bench B

Stewart, Zach P CHW Det Det Det @KC @KC @KC @KC Bench B

Wolf, Randy P MIL - Col Col - @Cin @Cin @Cin Bench B

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but it does look like streaming and not like CC and myself are simply replacing hurt pitchers or rookies with skipped starts...but to get a jump in stats.

Granted, this strategy can backfire if your pitchers tank, but you can also make up a lot of ground on counting stats, especially with so many inactive teams this time of year.

I agree with you though, play it out this year, evaluate it, and if it has significant unintended consequences, torpedo it. I like how you are trying to keep things simple.

Robert

[ September 12, 2011, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Rainiers ]

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:34 am

So what Friday is the first day that we can do this? The season ends on 9/28 (Wed) so no Friday that week. 9/23 is an obvious one and from the looks of this discussion, this Friday 9/16 will also be a Friday on which we can make any pitchers moves we want. Correct?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:46 am

Originally posted by Raskol:

So what Friday is the first day that we can do this? The season ends on 9/28 (Wed) so no Friday that week. 9/23 is an obvious one and from the looks of this discussion, this Friday 9/16 will also be a Friday on which we can make any pitchers moves we want. Correct? Correct, it's not 2.5 weeks as Ty is saying since you can't make any moves that last week, which ends on a Wednesday. You can switch out pitchers on Friday 9/16 and Friday 9/23. Good luck all.

I'm not taking anything out of context: I don't agree that this is a streaming league when you have two Friday's out of 27 weeks to make pitching changes. Some people will add two-start pitchers and succeed and some will fail. Some will get starts they wouldn't have because of managerial decisions thanks to this rule. At the end of the year, we'll analyze its effectiveness just like we did with the September DL Rule three years ago and make a call for 2012. If it worked, we'll keep it. If it doesn't, we'll be one and done. Easy enough.

Rainiers · Post by **Rainiers** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:50 am

Originally posted by Raskol:

So what Friday is the first day that we can do this? The season ends on 9/28 (Wed) so no Friday that week. 9/23 is an obvious one and from the looks of this discussion, this Friday 9/16 will also be a Friday on which we can make any pitchers moves we want. Correct? Correct

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:08 am

Thanks Greg & Rainiers. Just wanted to set my lineups accordingly.

[ September 12, 2011, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Raskol ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:22 am

Does the two weeks of unlimited pitcher moves apply to 'no FAAB' teams as well?

Spartacus · Post by **Spartacus** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:38 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Raskol:

So what Friday is the first day that we can do this? The season ends on 9/28 (Wed) so no Friday that week. 9/23 is an obvious one and from the looks of this discussion, this Friday 9/16 will also be a Friday on which we can make any pitchers moves we want. Correct? Correct, it's not 2.5 weeks as Ty is saying since you can't make any moves that last week, which ends on a Wednesday. You can switch out pitchers on Friday 9/16 and Friday 9/23. Good luck all.

I'm not taking anything out of context: I don't agree that this is a streaming league when you have two Friday's out of 27 weeks to make pitching changes. Some people will add two-start pitchers and succeed and some will fail. Some will get starts they wouldn't have because of managerial decisions thanks to this rule. At the end of the year, we'll analyze its effectiveness just like we did with the September DL Rule three years ago and make a call for 2012. If it worked, we'll keep it. If it doesn't, we'll be one and done. Easy enough. [/QUOTE]As for me, I like the opportunity to make my own luck, particularly when the money's on the line. Greg, you can put me down in favor of this new little wrinkle to our game before the fact. I even like the pitchers DL rule. (I say this at the risk of exposing myself as an unrepentant roto ****

) What I won't condone though is anyone pitching Carmona in Texas this week! Shawn, say it isn't so?

TParsons · Post by **TParsons** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:40 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Ty, I don't see the need to distinguish between a starter or reliever (which would cause more complications, which everyone seems to want to avoid ... because then you have to define who is and is not a starter).

Just lock any pitcher for the entire week as soon as he throws a pitch - whether he is on the bench or in your lineup, he locks. It's not a huge deal, I just feel like putting a closer in your lineup at the beginning of the week only to take him out because he didn't get an opp the first 3 games of a week is a little sketchy. A person that does this is clearly intending to use that reliever for the entire week.

I also don't really like the idea, only because of my own personal situation with travel and access to news/net. I like having weekly changes and a set deadline each Sunday where I know that I can catch up on any news that I miss. If you use your proposed rules, you almost have to have access daily. If a pitcher is scratched just hrs before a start somebody else might be able to make the change that I wouldn't be able to make during the week. This would definitely cut the amount of teams I play by a large margin. Like I said, it's a personal preference due to my own situation, but I don't think it's a bad idea in theory.

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by Raskol:

So what Friday is the first day that we can do this? The season ends on 9/28 (Wed) so no Friday that week. 9/23 is an obvious one and from the looks of this discussion, this Friday 9/16 will also be a Friday on which we can make any pitchers moves we want. Correct? Correct, it's not 2.5 weeks as Ty is saying since you can't make any moves that last week, which ends on a Wednesday. You can switch out pitchers on Friday 9/16 and Friday 9/23. Good luck all.

I'm not taking anything out of context: I don't agree that this is a streaming league when you have two Friday's out of 27 weeks to make pitching changes. Some people will add two-start pitchers and succeed and some will fail. Some will get starts they wouldn't have because of managerial decisions thanks to this rule. At the end of the year, we'll analyze its effectiveness just like we did with the September DL Rule three years ago and make a call for 2012. If it worked, we'll keep it. If it doesn't, we'll be one and done. Easy enough. [/QUOTE]You are taking what I said out of context because you continue to insinuate that I am saying the contest/league as an entirety is a streaming contest. That's not the case. I'm saying the last 2.5 weeks is a streaming contest...fine, 2 weeks, but that last 1/2 week still counts, so you need to implement that into your streaming strategy because there are unlikely to be any SP that start that last 1/2 wk available on the WW.

I don't want to come off as shady, so I will state that I'm personally using the streaming strategy myself in multiple leagues. It's likely to help me in several and hurt me in a few others. Regardless, the facts don't lie. Just check out the data. It's a streaming contest these next couple weeks whether you want to admit that or not. Just because I"m using the strategy doesn't mean I like it. With that said, at least it was in the rules to begin the season unlike the rewritten (unwritten?) DL tag rule.

[ September 12, 2011, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: TParsons ]

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:24 pm

[ October 13, 2011, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Walla Walla ]

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:15 am

Originally posted by Rainiers:

Greg,

I will get 14 starts this week, with two full-time closers. But I'm not close to streaming the most starting pitchers...Check out what CCs Desparados is doing in my Main Event League...note that he is on pace to get 18 starts in week 26:

CC'S DESPERADOS (9/12 to 9/15)

NAME 9/12 9/13 9/14 9/15 9/16 9/17 9/18 STATUS POS

Bailey, Homer P CIN ChC ChC ChC ChC Mil Mil Mil Active P

Carmona, Fausto P CLE - @Tex @Tex @Tex @Min @Min @Min Active P

Hudson, Daniel P ARI @LAD @LAD @LAD - @SD @SD @SD Active P

Huff, David P CLE - @Tex @Tex @Tex @Min @Min @Min Active P

Lackey, John P BOS - Tor Tor TB TB TB TB Active P

Masterson, Justin P CLE - @Tex @Tex @Tex @Min @Min @Min Active P

Millwood, Kevin P COL - @Mil @Mil SF SF SF SF Active P

Niemann, Jeff P TB @Bal @Bal @Bal @Bos @Bos @Bos @Bos Active P

Wells, Randy P CHC @Cin @Cin @Cin @Cin Hou Hou Hou Active P

BENCH 9/12 9/13 9/14 9/15 9/16 9/17 9/18 STATUS POS

Lowe, Derek P ATL Fla Fla Fla - NYM NYM NYM Bench B

Miley, Wade P ARI @LAD @LAD @LAD - @SD @SD @SD Bench B

Slowey, Kevin P MIN - @KC @KC - Cle Cle Cle Bench B

Stewart, Zach P CHW Det Det Det @KC @KC @KC @KC Bench B

Wolf, Randy P MIL - Col Col - @Cin @Cin @Cin Bench B

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but it does look like streaming and not like CC and myself are simply replacing hurt pitchers or rookies with skipped starts...but to get a jump in stats.

You have to forgive Childs. He has all this WCOFB game experience and he needs to apply it somewhere !

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:07 am

I can't wait to see how Huff pitching in Texas works out for big guy. Either he is genius or he has downgraded his oracle to a "Magic 8-Ball"!

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:50 am

Originally posted by Edwards Kings:

I can't wait to see how Huff pitching in Texas works out for big guy. Either he is genius or he has downgraded his oracle to a "Magic 8-Ball"!

That 8-ball could be right, but Huff has been pitching well enough that I also rolled the dice on him in Texas, for the Diamond lge.

[ September 13, 2011, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:07 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Edwards Kings:

I can't wait to see how Huff pitching in Texas works out for big guy. Either he is genius or he has downgraded his oracle to a "Magic 8-Ball"!

That 8-ball could be right, but Huff has been pitching well enough that I also rolled the dice on him in Texas, for the Diamond lge.

[/QUOTE]Don't get me wrong. I picked him up last Sunday, but could not pull the trigger in Arlington. I like his two starts next week better.