Feedback Wanted On 12-Team NFBC Main Event

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:19 am

For the last two years, the NFBC has run a 12-team live event contest called the Live Double Play that had league prizes and an overall prize pool. It was a fun contest and through live and online drafts we were able to finish with 288 teams in 2010 and 252 teams in 2011. However, at $500 per team, it wasn't cost effective to do this live with all of the costs involved for the live drafts.

I've already announced that our NFBC Online Championship will remain separate from any other contest and we will grow it with prizes based on 576 teams. We look forward to a great season there with a price point that should fit a lot of people who like this 12-team format. We believe in this 12-team format and want to continue to grow it through the NFBC Online Championship. This year will likely feature a $50,000 grand prize, just like last year.

For people who like private 12-team leagues without the overall prize pool, we will offer 12-team satellite leagues this year at price points of $125, $250, $500 and $1,000. Look for more details about these satellite leagues soon.

Now onto the area where I need some feedback: I believe strongly in the 12-team concept and I believe it's an area that we can expand and excel in the live events model. The 15-team Main Event is our signature event and will always be our key event. But it's a tough format and through the years it's possible that we have lost some former members who haven't always won in this format. It's possible that the 12-team format would bring them back or even bring in new owners to the live events.

Without a competitor in the live events model, I also think it makes sense for us to offer a 12-team Main Event before someone else gets the bright idea to do it. Most fantasy players compete in 12-team rather than 15-team formats anyway, so it's possible that this live event could grow as popular as our signature event soon. It also provides a second set of live drafts in our various locations, along with the Auction Championship.

So I'm thinking about a 12-team Main Event, 30 rounds, 23 starters, same format as we've had before. Pay Top 3 in each league with an overall grand prize. Live drafts on both weekends in each city plus Online options. I won't overshoot with the estimated number of teams, so the grand prize won't be six figures to start out. Start conservatively and see what the demand is through our customers and hopefully new customers.

Thoughts?

Okay, one of the areas I need help with is the price point. To make this a Main Event, I feel like we need to have a price point at $1,000 at the minimum. I was thinking about starting at our original price point for the main at $1,250. Then you could have $5,000 for first, $2,500 for second and $700 or so for third. Thoughts? Should I go as high as the 15-team format: $1,400?? Any thoughts or feedback would help.

Nothing is set in stone here and I know the economy isn't helping, but I think the time is right for a 12-team Main Event to go along with our 15-team Main Event and I think there's enough support for this to start small and grow it each year. We have two Main Events in football and this year we had 640 teams at $1,400 each among the two formats (12-team and 14-team). We had 170+ teams in both Main Events for football. I have this sneaky feeling that many of our NFBC owners will do both events in baseball, too.

Anyway, I'm interested in any and all feedback. I'll try to make a final decision by the end of the World Series and post it all here. Thanks all and let me know what you think.

751542 · Post by **751542** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:34 am

the one thing that jumps out at me is to get rid of 3rd place and put that towards the overall prize or atleast a portion of the 700. but i think this is a great idea and helps you stay ahead of the competition, if there is any....the 12 teamer will def help grow the event ...sign me up...keep the options coming...maybe eventually a h2h event may appeal to the masses as well...whatever it takes to get some new blood and make this event grow so jupinka and lindy stop taking my money

Hells Satans · Post by **Hells Satans** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:35 am

You guys know the market far better than I do, but think you're just going to end up self-cannibalizing. You already have most (all?) of the $1000 and up baseball market, although maybe you'll get a little of the WCOFB spillover. Personally, I dislike the 12 team format for baseball because the FAAB pool is too stocked after the ASB when you only have a handful of teams legitimately competing in the league. I'm sure I'd probably buy a team, but not more than that.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:00 am

Originally posted by Hells Satans:

You guys know the market far better than I do, but think you're just going to end up self-cannibalizing. You already have most (all?) of the $1000 and up baseball market, although maybe you'll get a little of the WCOFB spillover. Personally, I dislike the 12 team format for baseball because the FAAB pool is too stocked after the ASB when you only have a handful of teams legitimately competing in the league. I have to agree with Satan. Personally, I don't have any interest in a 12 team format. Your 15 team format is PERFECT. Be careful not to hurt your signature event.

[ October 10, 2011, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Gekko ]

Spartacus · Post by **Spartacus** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:28 am

My first reaction Greg was 'Cool'! My second was 'what league(s) do I cut to make it work for me time wise and financially?' Honestly, I prefer the 15 to the 12 team format, though I play them both. I think you may run the risk of some dilution with the introduction of the 12 team ME. In my opinion the best way to cement your status as the preeminent high stakes fantasy sports venue and hold off the wannabee's is to resurrect Fantasy Sports Magazine. That's how I discovered you, how most of us discovered you. Seeing 'Joe Blow' on the cover holding a big fat check (with all due respect to the previous Joe Blows

), appealed to our competitiveness, vanity, and your credibility. Even if it's reintroduction is as a 'loss leader', long term it will give you the biggest bang for your buck. I miss it..............Bring it back!

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:23 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Hells Satans:

You guys know the market far better than I do, but think you're just going to end up self-cannibalizing. You already have most (all?) of the $1000 and up baseball market, although maybe you'll get a little of the WCOFB spillover. Personally, I dislike the 12 team format for baseball because the FAAB pool is too stocked after the ASB when you only have a handful of teams legitimately competing in the league. I have to agree with Satan. Personally, I don't have any interest in a 12 team format. Your 15 team format is PERFECT. Be careful not to hurt your signature event. [/QUOTE]A third to this sentiment. We all get a little kick in the gut when you hear a friend throwing out a business idea that scares you. I got that when I read it. I think you have to be careful to ask your supporters on this idea how it will impact their other buying decisions with your product offering.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:38 am

While I also agree that the 12 team live event could be robbing Peter to pay Paul, forcing many to make an either/or decision, I think the point being lost is eventually, someone is going to jump into the fray and offer a live 12 team contest and it would be better for the NFBC to jump the gun and keep Peter and Paul on the same team, so to speak.

If the allure of the live 12 team contest is the grand prize, I agree with RT that the 3rd place prize should go to the overall.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but maybe in a sense it is not. I sort of shrug a little when I hear someone say their goal in the Main Event is to "finish in the money and let the chips fall where they may." I "get" what they are saying, but privately say to myself "if that is how you really feel, then you would get a better ROI playing in satellites."

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:39 am

Dang flood control...

[ October 10, 2011, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Money · Post by **Money** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:40 am

I would welcome the 12 team "Main Event" whole heartily. True, some may make decisions based on time and finances but from a business standpoint it makes a lot of sense.

1. You will attract those that play that format

2. Some players are intimidated by the 15 team formant and the 12 teamer is a perfect entry point.

3. You close the door for any potential competitors who would look to make a name for themselves with that format.

4. You're the leader in the industry. I say Lead!!

I think you're right on with this offering and doing away with the live double play while keeping the online contest at a very affordable and attractive entry fee.

[ October 10, 2011, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Money ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:51 am

I'll bet a lot of the concerns, will be the same concerns as when thoughts of starting the NFBC were being tossed around.

Although 12 team leagues are prevalent around our spectrum, most are for fun, bragging rights, or small amounts of money.

I would put the entry amount at $1000.

In the first year, we're trying to attract as many moths to the candle as possible. Once they find out how cool (hot) that candle is, they won't mind a raising of the fees to make more overall money down the road.

This will probably be considered a minor contest by most of us. Luck is increased by the growing player pool.

The 15 team leagues have most of us spoiled.

I'm guessing some will play both, but in order to bring in new customers, $1000 would be the play.

Hells Satans · Post by **Hells Satans** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:54 am

Getting a jump on potential competitors is certainly a valid point. If you decide to do it, I think you need to invest in some additional advertising. Unless you're willing to do these at a loss, you would need a pretty serious influx of new money.

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:56 am

I think one point I missed now that I have gotten a chance to think about it is this...

I only thought about the impact to the 15 team main event because I think with 99% certainty it would contract.

Is that the end of the world though? If you can maintain enough participation to keep it interesting.... I am confident you will.

Do you become more profitable overall (most of your customers understand the need for you to grow profits), protect your turf, and welcome in a new customer base that may in the long run grow the main event even bigger than it is now.

I suspect all I did here though was frame up a question you have had in your head for a good while and actually offer no substantive answers. For that I apologize in advance.

Hobo Zeke · Post by **Hobo Zeke** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:28 am

Need to have the BIG carrot. Win both for an additional $75,000! That should get enough people to play both Main Events.

As for myself, I only like the 15 team event.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:43 am

Originally posted by ToddZ:

If the allure of the live 12 team contest is the grand prize, I agree with RT that the 3rd place prize should go to the overall.

thinking out loud here...if the 12 team NFFC PRIMETIME league pays out 3 league prizes, why wouldn't 3 leagues prizes be paid in a 12 team NFBC baseball league?

Zazie · Post by **Zazie** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:14 am

Whatever will increase the total number of NFBC players (particularly Main Event players) is in my interest. I want there to be a supply of new players that keeps the enrollment in the ME at 390 to 450 (or more) more or less forever.

If there's a way to offer a discounted entry fee (for this 12-teamer mini-ME) to people who've never played NFBC before, I'd support that. At the very least, the only way this new event works is with lots of advertising directed at people who play local leagues, win them, and are looking for a bigger challenge.

I've played the Main Event only twice and both times I was intensely aware of just how good the quality of team owners was. I expect that every year there are a fair number of owners who do not come back because they finish so far out of the money -- and, to replace them, we need new people with a history of success in other formats.

If it were me, I'd set the entry fee at around 900 and measure success only by the number of NFBC rookies I brought in. I don't think it matters if the current pool of players loves the format.

Cowboy Joe · Post by **Cowboy Joe** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:21 am

If the goal is to increase the customer base, especially at live events, I suggest a different but complementary model to the main event.

1. Set the entry fee at the lowest point that is cost feasible to the NFBC. I bet there are far more prospective players who hold off because of the entry fee cost than there are players willing to drop $3K but stay away because they don't enjoy the existing games offered.

2. Use this contest to throw out some "atta boys". Minimize the overall pot (maybe only pay a substantially reduced pot to the top 3 overall) and instead award the top 4 places in each league. By doing so, you spread the wealth giving more people the warm fuzzies and confidence to play again or perhaps play in an additional league the following year.

Rather than having an overall winner in the 12 team live, another approach is to use some of the entry fee to fund a live event, combined league winner (main, auction, and 12 team). This would also provide an incentive for all live participants to play in each type of league.

3. Limit the 12 team live event to only live participants as permitting online participants destroys the incentive for showing up at a live event. Besides, several contests already exist for online 12 team enthusiasts.

I think a complementary-type 12 team live event is a great opportunity to promote the social aspect of the NFBC. Outside of the core 80 or so players, the success rate of the rest playing in the main and other high stakes games has probably been less than 10%. Losing $1400 per year with no reward in return discourages a lot of folks. The result is that in the last two years, the main event has had fewer unique participants. It has grown by allowing players to have multiple entries; no problem except that the NFBC has already saturated the number of leagues that most people want to play in.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:04 am

Originally posted by Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by ToddZ:

If the allure of the live 12 team contest is the grand prize, I agree with RT that the 3rd place prize should go to the overall.

thinking out loud here...if the 12 team NFFC PRIMETIME league pays out 3 league prizes, why wouldn't 3 leagues prizes be paid in a 12 team NFBC baseball league? [/QUOTE]I don't play the NFFC anymore, though I do lurk. Seems to me the decisions there should involve consideration of the alternate contests and the best means to attract and retain clientele.

The dynamics of the NFBC are completely different than the NFFC and I feel while the decisions should also entail whatever promotes attracting and retaining the most players, the means does not have to parallel that of the NFFC. The NFBC is the top dog, some may same the only game in town. The NFFC is in competition with other contests, most notably the FFPC which has the backing, and therefore the participation of the largest fantasy football web site and is trying to earn the trust of a huge number of orphaned players looking for the most comfortable and trusting format to play. If paying three spots helps that occur - great. That doesn't mean the NFBC has to follow suit "just because". The NFBC has its own challenges to consider.

That said, if paying 3 spots helps retain players, that works for me. Paying 3 because the NFFC does it does not work for me.

[ October 10, 2011, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: ToddZ ]

Jim Christie · Post by **Jim Christie** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:29 am

I like the idea of a 12-team Main Event. We had Double Play live for $550 and I don't recall how many owners drafted LIVE at a venue. I never liked the idea of mixing it with the $350 Online Championship.

I don't think it would hurt the 15 team format; that said, I would make it $1000 entry fee and pay ONLY 1st and 2nd. I have always looked forward to drafting in the Main Event, the Auction and DP Live. I don't believe a $450 increase to make the 12-Team format its OWN Main Event would dilute anything.

You have started out asking for feedback and hopefully you'll receive more feedback over the next month or so.

If anything, it may take away from how many play multiple $350 Online Championship teams.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:19 am

Originally posted by ToddZ:

That said, if paying 3 spots helps retain players, that works for me. Paying 3 because the NFFC does it does not work for me. todd - i believe the NFFC pays the top 3 to "retain players".

BEF · Post by **BEF** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:26 pm

Originally posted by Cowboy Joe:

If the goal is to increase the customer base, especially at live events, I suggest a different but complementary model to the main event.

1. Set the entry fee at the lowest point that is cost feasible to the NFBC. I bet there are far more prospective players who hold off because of the entry fee cost than there are players willing to drop $3K but stay away because they don't enjoy the existing games offered.Couldn't agree more. If the idea is to draw in new blood, plus not cannibalize your higher end players, then I think this is a key component.

How about a nice symmetrical entry fee system:

Online: $350

12 Team Main: $700

15 Team Main: $1,400

I also like the idea of lowering the overall and making it more worthwhile to finish 3rd (or even 4th) in your league. Think of it as a "feeder" system (or perhaps your local crack dealer) where you start cheap, get hooked and end up an addict, selling all of your possessions and sending your children into the slave trade to feed your drafting habit. But I digress...

Edwards Kings · Post by **Edwards Kings** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:15 am

Not really my format of choice, but I do not think that this type of league/contest would constitute a "starter" format. That is what the various satellites do quite well.

Rather, I think this is an "alternative" format (12-team versus 15-team) to interest those who would be more comfortable with less penetration into major league rosters. This would represent the NFBC's attempt to broaden itself into untapped markets. Sure, there would be some duality (players in both) and switching (leaving the 15-teamer for the 12-teamer and vica versa), but generally I would see the new contest as attractive to its own following. It also would not stray from the NFBC's core competency (high stakes fantasy sports) which could be a danger if we tried to be all things to too many people.

I like the idea, but like I said it is not my favored format.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:32 am

Originally posted by ToddZ:

While I also agree that the 12 team live event could be robbing Peter to pay Paul, forcing many to make an either/or decision, I think the point being lost is eventually, someone is going to jump into the fray and offer a live 12 team contest and it would be better for the NFBC to jump the gun and keep Peter and Paul on the same team, so to speak.This Todd Zola is a smart guy!!

He knows his Peters, Pauls, Jose Bautistas and everyone else!!

Honestly, while I know some of our guys would choose to do a 12-team Main over maybe something else online (like a satellite league), that's not the basis of this decision. It's to grow a new game that hopefully brings in NEW customers and grows an area of the market that quite honestly I was too dumb to notice should have been there all along. I mean really, to think that there isn't a 12-team Main Event in our industry right now is foolish from a game operator's standpoint. We all know most people play 12 teams rather than 15 teams. Heck, when I created the NFBC most people said "why the hell are you doing it with 15 teams per league? Why not 12?"

There's a market here that is unfulfilled and it should be filled by the industry leader that already has a track record of eight years of paying in full, paying on time, and running a first class live event. We may even recruit old NFBC players who have left the 15-team format, but the goal is to bring in NEW players who may like this format better. If we lose players from the 15-team format to the 12-team format, then it's possible they might not have been long for that format anyway. And the $100,000 grand prize will still only be in the 15-team format, so the real big prize money should remain where it's always been.

I appreciate all of the comments and I'm going to summarize them shortly, but this one definitely stuck out and deserved a pat on the back before I see Todd in Arizona, where he will remind me that Jose Bautista hit 35+ homers just as he predicted last November. I said he would definitely hit under 35. What the hell do I know?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:48 am

Okay, great feedback for the first 24 hours. Here's what I've gotten from the feedback so far:

** Suggested entry fee level makes sense at $1,000, maybe slightly more. I will see what kind of grand prize we can get at that level and one at $1,250. Those are the two price points I'll concentrate on. We need a big enough grand prize to be relevant, but we also don't want to shoot for the moon with guaranteed entries or too big of an entry fee. Got it.

** I will pay 4x for 1st, 2x for 2nd and then consider whether to pay third place at all or use that for the grand prize. It's easy to create two different models here and present them to everyone.

** We already have a $75,000 cash bonus for the Main Event and the Online Championship. Lindy already won that and has proven it can be done. If we run a 12-team Main Event there is no doubt that I'd create another $75,000 cash bonus for anyone who could win both overall titles. With only 240 teams expected for the 12-team Main Event, this could be a VERY good incentive to play both. I think most would agree to that.

** The goal, as some people have finally realized, is to bring in NEW customers to the NFBC. We all agree that new members are needed to the NFBC or we will be down to past champions competing against past champions in every league. The current live Main Events are already loaded with NFBC veterans; we need new blood.

The Online Championship was created to bring in new players and that has definitely happened. I think this will add to the mix as well.

** Finding the ideal draft date/time will be tough with both weekends being so busy. But that's why it's great to have two weekends. And we will offer the 12-team Main Event online, maybe even during one weekday before the live event. Stay tuned on the times, but I feel confident that we can make this work just as we did with the Live Double Play.

Bringing in new players is the key. Creating and leading in a format that should have been done YEARS AGO makes sense. It's the most common game format for fantasy players, so why not offer what most people play? Keep the feedback coming and again I'll have some more options to look at by the end of the week, but keep the feedback coming first. It's helping in my final decisions. Thanks all.

Schwks · Post by **Schwks** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:18 am

With the precipitous fall of the competition, the NFBC needs to leverage its position as the only game in town, and its reputation for reliability. Even if it means initial slight losses(which it probably won't), this type of league solidifies the NFBC stronghold.

Greg, two other issues jump out at me:

1. There are now dozens, if not hundreds who are out money from the other league. I would find away to provide assurance to those who are either coming from that event, or who are going for the first time and may have heard about the downfall of the other league. Some suggestions would include provide proof of escrowing the moneys or insurance on the money. ( I say this as one who has always been paid in a timely, satisfactory manner for 4 years so this is not addressed to me personally)

2. We are all gamblers at heart. The way the NFBC can really grow is by making themselves into almost online poker site. This would entail laying the foundation for money drafts at any given moment. SO instead of checking in at Mock Draft Central for a meaningless draft that half the participants won't show for, enable people who want to sign up and draft any time there are 11 or 14 like minded individuals.

Likewhat17 · Post by **Likewhat17** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:14 am

Personally, I think that going with a smaller price point, $700 or $750 would be a better idea than $1000 or $1250. To the average fantasy baseball player, $1000+ are very steep stakes to jump in at. I think that if you price this event more moderately, it would open it up more to new players, rather than just giving your existing customer base another game to play in.

Personally, when I started playing in the main event I needed to share the cost of the team 5-ways, and I still can't afford to go it alone. I think at $700 or so you'd be more likely to have the curious players willing to find a partner and share a team. I know that a lot of my friends who want to get into the high stakes games can't afford to play at the 1000+ price points.