More Details On 12-Team Main Event

Nevadaman · Post by **Nevadaman** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:33 pm

A few comments:

1) If you pay $1000 to enter and you collect $500, no tax is payable unless the NFBC has changed its accounting. Last year, the entry fee was deducted from the prize collected on the tax form. Has this changed?

2) To make the 12 stand out, do away with leagues altogether after the initial draft. Have a prize structure that ONLY PAYS the overall!! That way you can pay down many places and more owners are involved all year. More people get paid and coming in 27th place or even 50th place will actually mean something good!

Likewhat17 · Post by **Likewhat17** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:22 am

Originally posted by Nevadaman:

A few comments:

2) To make the 12 stand out, do away with leagues altogether after the initial draft. Have a prize structure that ONLY PAYS the overall!! That way you can pay down many places and more owners are involved all year. More people get paid and coming in 27th place or even 50th place will actually mean something good! Not sure that the masses would go for it, but I really like that idea

G@mblor · Post by **G@mblor** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:19 am

Originally posted by Likewhat17:

quote:Originally posted by Nevadaman:

A few comments:

2) To make the 12 stand out, do away with leagues altogether after the initial draft. Have a prize structure that ONLY PAYS the overall!! That way you can pay down many places and more owners are involved all year. More people get paid and coming in 27th place or even 50th place will actually mean something good! Not sure that the masses would go for it, but I really like that idea [/QUOTE]I also like this idea. It may keep some teams from being shutout of the money who would have finished second (or third) in their league but, it also prevents a team from finishing 25th overall and 4th in their league and getting nada. Most of all, this would really help the 12 team version to stand out and would likely result in some big risk taking by drafters who only have that big prize in mind.

southpaw23 · Post by **southpaw23** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:37 am

I don't know, I kinda like a 3rd place prize, no matter what the dollar amount is. Like Greg stated, keeps more teams involved all the way till the end. At the end of the season, you might not have a team that won it all but if you are lucky enough to get 3rd, at least you get something back for your efforts.

Obviously the big payouts are what everyone is shooting for but it's nice to have something in return for those teams that just don't quite make it.

This will just be my 2nd year doing NFBC but it will be my first time doing any of the "major" events. Really like how this contest is shaping up.

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:04 am

Ok how about this. I agree with Ken and Glenn X. Love the move to 50k with other higher prizes. Now how about we put all 3rd place finishers into a hat and draw 1 team. Team that gets drawn wins a free entry to 2013's NFBC XII(

) or the ME.

Maybe that has to be paid out in cash but you get the idea. That way there's something to shoot for and it becomes material.

Throw it on You-tube: make index cards of all 3rd place finishers, video tape it, sweep it into bag then pull a card.

If there's some kind of validity issue :rolleyes: then maybe HSFB isn't for them.

Just a thought...

Sack · Post by **Sack** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:46 pm

Greg,

My bad. INSULTING looks like a poor wording choice on my part.

Let me try again. As a player being given the option on whether to plunk down $1000 on your new idea I'd prefer to see you eliminate the $500 third place prize and direct that towards the Overall prize structure. Paying the top two in a twelve team league is my preference. I fully understand that fewer people would cash, but I feel it strengthens your top end prize structure and would help your new game.

Glad you clarified the tax point. For those of us that have supported you with MULTIPLE games each season we do have to consider that after we hit that $600 mark from a total PRIZE WINNING standpoint it becomes reportable. Having to claim $500 after paying $1000 to participate kicks in with a simple $125 cash on one of your satellite leagues.

Potter · Post by **Potter** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:57 pm

Much prefer bumping the oa to 50k, 2nd to 10k etc. vs paying 3rd place lg finishers. Since we're on the the topic, as entries exceed the target this year or in the future, I would strongly prefer to see that extra prize pool money go to strengthening the 2-10 overall finishers. Making a reasonably attainable goal of finishing in the top ten as attractive as possible would probably be a bigger carrot than getting half back for a third place lg finish. The Diamond Challenge has a leaderboard that posts the top 25. Many owners gauge their success on how many "big board" finishes they have had over the years. Getting enough entries in this contest or the main so that the top 10 is both a financial feather as well as a basis for bragging rights would be something I'd like to see.

Money · Post by **Money** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:21 pm

[ November 14, 2011, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Money ]

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:32 am

Okay, all worthy points. My concern is having just a 1 in 6 chance of winning money in this format, but it certainly hasn't stopped the growth of the NFBC Online Championship. And winning $50,000 is a bigger carrot than $40,000. Let me give this some more thought.

Keep the feedback coming. Our goal is to have Registration live very soon and start the ball rolling on all of our 2012 contests. I'm excited about the upcoming season and about the chance to have two Main Event type formats each year going forward here.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:14 am

Given that this is breaking the cardinal rule of KISS, there is a little bit of precedent for this by having $150 satellites that are pay the winner and others pay top-3.

Could there be 2 different price points for the 12 team event, adding $50 to one and paying third place in those leagues? That brings in $600 and $500 is paid out?

Money · Post by **Money** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:27 am

In the best interests of growing this format I'd suggest you not diminish the league prize pools to much. If you want to eliminate third place, that's fine. The extra funds should then be used to enhance the first and second place league prizes.

While everyone with a team theoretically has a chance to win the overall, in reality it's a certain % that have the ability to pull it off. I liken it to a mini-tour golf tournament. You have 300 guys tee-ing it up but in reality only about 75 can actually win the tournament. Although everyone of them thinks they can. (Very important)

The top players will all play this format. They will not be deterred by a "Measly 40k carrott". I think this format will outsell the main event in it's first year. League prizes and their amounts are very important. More important than the difference between 40 and 50k as the main carrot in the overall.

One last thing, I wouldn't promote this as a junior circuit. Anyone plunking down a grand will not like the suggestion that they aren't playing in a premier event. In reality it is "The Premier" 12 team event.

Simply my opinion of course,

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:31 am

Originally posted by Money:

In the best interests of growing this format I'd suggest you not diminish the league prize pools to much. If you want to eliminate third place, that's fine. The extra funds should then be used to enhance the first and second place league prizes.

While everyone with a team theoretically has a chance to win the overall, in reality it's a certain % that have the ability to pull it off. I liken it to a mini-tour golf tournament. You have 300 guys tee-ing it up but in reality only about 75 can actually win the tournament. Although everyone of them thinks they can. (Very important)

The top players will all play this format. They will not be deterred by a "Measly 40k carrott". I think this format will outsell the main event in it's first year. League prizes and their amounts are very important. More important than the difference between 40 and 50k as the main carrot in the overall.

One last thing, I wouldn't promote this as a junior circuit. Anyone plunking down a grand will not like the suggestion that they aren't playing in a premier event. In reality it is "The Premier" 12 team event.

Simply my opinion of course, The baseball term "Junior Circuit" is offensive? Wow ! I need to update my politically correct dictionary. No one should tell the Yankees or Red Sox they play in the junior circuit. Liberal use of this term must make Bob Costas and Vin Scully the new Al Campanis's.

Much better to give this contest an informercial-like name such as "Premier". :rolleyes:

While I'm on the topic, I agree with Ken and others that a small third place prize in a 12-teamer probably isn't necessary. I'd bump up the league prizes for 1&2.

[ November 14, 2011, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Money · Post by **Money** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:48 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Money:

In the best interests of growing this format I'd suggest you not diminish the league prize pools to much. If you want to eliminate third place, that's fine. The extra funds should then be used to enhance the first and second place league prizes.

While everyone with a team theoretically has a chance to win the overall, in reality it's a certain % that have the ability to pull it off. I liken it to a mini-tour golf tournament. You have 300 guys tee-ing it up but in reality only about 75 can actually win the tournament. Although everyone of them thinks they can. (Very important)

The top players will all play this format. They will not be deterred by a "Measly 40k carrott". I think this format will outsell the main event in it's first year. League prizes and their amounts are very important. More important than the difference between 40 and 50k as the main carrot in the overall.

One last thing, I wouldn't promote this as a junior circuit. Anyone plunking down a grand will not like the suggestion that they aren't playing in a premier event. In reality it is "The Premier" 12 team event.

Simply my opinion of course, The term "Junior" is offensive?

Wow ! I need to update my politically correct dictionary. No one should tell the Yankees or Red Sox they play in the junior circuit. Liberal use of this term must make Bob Costas and Vin Scully the new Al Campanis's. [/QUOTE]The word offensive is a bit strong here. What I was suggesting that those paying a thousand dollars a pop wouldn't view this as anything less than any other (main) event. In reality it is the best 12 team national contest offered.

Not sure why you took such offense here to the word. I was simply pointing out a marketing strategy to grow the format.

KJ, you are in that select group that can actually win on a national level. Any newcomer who hasn't played nationally will have very little chance. It takes a number of years to be able to compete.

I'm sorry you were somehow offended, but I stand by fact that I don't think that this should be marketed as the Main Event's little sister.

Zazie · Post by **Zazie** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:04 am

I just got finished having my head handed to me by KJ Duke in the main event, so I know how good he is -- and Potter and Sack are also big-time players. With all due respect to their skills that I have repeatedly proven I can't match, I think Greg has to ignore them for the most part in making these decisions.

It's all about how newcomers will see it, not how the best NFBC players do. The decision to grow the NFBC by adding 12-teamers is a very good one, but the key to doing that is imagining how it will look to someone who has never entered a national contest or someone who has only played small-money games.

I believe it's in our interest (as regular NFBC competitors) to have plenty of newcomers around every year. We have to think about what would be most attractive to them, not how our best players react to Greg's proposals.

I happen to like the idea of strengthening the payouts below #2 in the Overall rankings, but I'm not sure what will appeal most to the newcomers. It might be league prizes they care about most. We need some reactions from NFBC rookies in 2011.

Sack · Post by **Sack** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:11 am

Zazie:

With all due respect. Do you really think offering a new player the chance to cash a $500 third place prize from a $1000 entry is appealing? Bottom line, the third place guy is losing $500 and if he plays multiple games he'll face tax consequences at $600. What new player is ever going to enter a contest content to lose money?

I have no issue if the $500 was distributed back into the league prizes as MONEY has stated, although my preferences still sit with the overall. New blood is great, but the existing player base needs to stamp approval as well. This won't be known until they finalize the rules/payoffs and see if we as a customer base choose to support this new game.

mbendar16 · Post by **mbendar16** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:37 pm

I'm not a new player, but for someone that has played the NFBC for 2 years (with 2 3rd place double play finishes)

, I'll provide my thoughts. In regards to the "carrot" to entice new players to play, I think the key of this discussion is introducing players to the LIVE format. I believe anyone wanting to play the NFBC for the 1st time will choose the online $50,000 guarantee for a lesser price point over the live event unless there is a compelling reason to do so. To the big time players, $500 might not mean a lot, but to a new player that is used to making money in a local league for 3rd, it could be important, financially and/or emotionally. No one plays for 3rd, but having that as an option for a successful season is a good one since to that new player, a 3rd place finish live is almost the same cost as an 3rd place online finish.

The balance, given Ken's and others comments, is how much to potentially entice new players at the expense of the existing customer who are mainly against a 3rd place prize. Just my thoughts.

Mark

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:12 pm

Money, I'd be very happy to win the little sister event. My point was not a name that belittled the event, but to find an appropriate and interesting baseball-oriented name.

The NFBC has run the gamut of great-sounding adjectives. But once you name something "the Ultimate", its hard to come up with something that means bigger and better. Just giving my 2c that a new direction would be refreshing.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:23 pm

Originally posted by Zazie:

I believe it's in our interest (as regular NFBC competitors) to have plenty of newcomers around every year. We have to think about what would be most attractive to them, not how our best players react to Greg's proposals.

No argument here, just don't know if a newcomer would view it differently than some of us that have been here.

Getting part of my money back for "winning" doesn't sound exciting to me, and I don't think I'd see it differently if I was looking at some other contest that I've never entered before. The attraction for me is playing to win, not hoping to lose only half my entry.

Jim Christie · Post by **Jim Christie** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:24 pm

Originally posted by mbendar16:

I'm not a new player, but for someone that has played the NFBC for 2 years (with 2 3rd place double play finishes)

, I'll provide my thoughts. In regards to the "carrot" to entice new players to play, I think the key of this discussion is introducing players to the LIVE format. I believe anyone wanting to play the NFBC for the 1st time will choose the online $50,000 guarantee for a lesser price point over the live event unless there is a compelling reason to do so. To the big time players, $500 might not mean a lot, but to a new player that is used to making money in a local league for 3rd, it could be important, financially and/or emotionally. No one plays for 3rd, but having that as an option for a successful season is a good one since to that new player, a 3rd place finish live is almost the same cost as an 3rd place online finish.

The balance, given Ken's and others comments, is how much to potentially entice new players at the expense of the existing customer who are mainly against a 3rd place prize. Just my thoughts.

Mark Your typical "local" league player may not want to plunk down $1000 to play a national event, Live or Online and if they do, a 3rd place $500 prize (a loss of $500 of their investment) might not mean a thing. 12 team league, pay the top 2 places seems fair and use the extra $500 for the OA; 50K sounds sweeter than 40K, don't you think?

Potter · Post by **Potter** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:40 pm

An 1100 entry would allow for 50k for 1st, 10k for 2nd, 1k for lg 3rd and an extra 5.5k towards the top 10 prizes. Just saying.

MadCow Sez · Post by **MadCow Sez** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:48 pm

Originally posted by Potter:

An 1100 entry would allow for 50k for 1st, 10k for 2nd, 1k for lg 3rd and an extra 5.5k towards the top 10 prizes. Just saying. ER, you gotta cut out that logic stuff.

Put me in the pay top 2, add the balance to the big pie.

mbendar16 · Post by **mbendar16** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:10 pm

Your typical "local" league player may not want to plunk down $1000 to play a national event, Live or Online and if they do, a 3rd place $500 prize (a loss of $500 of their investment) might not mean a thing. 12 team league, pay the top 2 places seems fair and use the extra $500 for the OA; 50K sounds sweeter than 40K, don't you think?

The point I was trying to make is from the perspective of a new player, I think they'll pay $350 to try and win $50K over $1,000. If a purpose of this new event is to attract new players to the NFBC, something needs to differentiate the live event from the online event, whether that be better 1st and 2nd place prizes or the 3rd place prize.

Gekko · Post by **Gekko** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:19 pm

Originally posted by mbendar16:

I think they'll pay $350 to try and win $50K over $1,000. that is a legit concern

low talkers · Post by **low talkers** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:25 pm

Looking at leagues at the beginning of the year, $500 for 3rd place doesn't look great... But, especially for new players, at the end of the year, getting a $500 check in the mail would feel pretty fantastic, regardless of how much you payed in. Could see that helping entice someone to come back again the next year.

Money · Post by **Money** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm

A lot of great comments here with differing opinions. Lets not lose sight of the fact that this is meant to be a "Live" event. No right or wrong here.

Some legitimate points made along the way. It appears there is a consensus amongst the top (elite) players that they want as much money as possible going to the overall prize. I speak for the uninformed and say keep league prizes (whether 1st and 2nd or 1st, 2nd and 3rd) at a maximum. They have a better shot a cashing than than in the overall. This will keep them involved.

I'm a guy who believes he's getting better after 2 years, although not convinced that I can compete in the 14 team league. I know I can in the 12 team league.

If all things were equal and we had a 12 and 14 team league (main event) with the same entry and rules, the 12 teamer would dominate. The elite do not want that. They realize they separate themselves from the pack with the additional teams and their incredible knowledge of the player pool.

There will not be one top player that doesn't participate in the 12 team main event. They are licking their chops.....

My opinion, drunk as it may be......

By the way it seems the top players come out of the woodwork to have a say in how the money is divvied up. Except Lindy of course, he may be the exception to every rule.

Still somewhat drunk but think I'm ok with this post. Good night all.