Possible NFBC Cutline Championship In 2014

[BK METS]

The fact that there are 4 pages of replies here in 18 hours proves that this is a great idea, and that current NFBCers will play. Likely, the less the time commitment, the more we'll play.
I think the key to getting new players in is making it easy to understand and easy to play. 45 rounds is too much for someone coming from espn or CBS 10team leagues. We don't want a new player to jump in and be overwhelmed, we want them to feel like they are stepping up to the big leagues, but that they have a chance to compete. It can work with either a basic points scoring, or roto, those are both common enough leagues. If doing points, the simpler better, meaning fewer categories to get points from.
A new player should be able to read the rules in 2-3 minutes and understand exactly what they are getting into, how to play, and how they can win.

+1

[Greg Ambrosius]

The fact that there are 4 pages of replies here in 18 hours proves that this is a great idea, and that current NFBCers will play. Likely, the less the time commitment, the more we'll play.
I think the key to getting new players in is making it easy to understand and easy to play. 45 rounds is too much for someone coming from espn or CBS 10team leagues. We don't want a new player to jump in and be overwhelmed, we want them to feel like they are stepping up to the big leagues, but that they have a chance to compete. It can work with either a basic points scoring, or roto, those are both common enough leagues. If doing points, the simpler better, meaning fewer categories to get points from.
A new player should be able to read the rules in 2-3 minutes and understand exactly what they are getting into, how to play, and how they can win.

Great post CHAMP. Spot on.

You guys have spurred hope that this concept can work. I chose not to post anything until now because I was also unsure of how to make this work and from a programming standpoint this won't be easy. It's a totally different game from what we have in the NFBC, but there is something here to build on. I knew this could have been panned right out of the gate, but as Dave said you can see the passion from our die-hard players who also know there's something here. You guys feel there's potential here, too.

I'm not sure we solved anything over the last day other than my first instinct of a potential new market was correct. Now we need to iron out some things. But we are close and you guys got us to this point. Now let's take Dave's advice and streamline this so it's fast, easy to understand, and fun. Oh, and with a guaranteed $50,000 grand prize.

[KJ Duke]

Starting lineup = 23
Backups:
C = 1
MI = 2
CI = 2
OF/UT = 4
SP = 6
RP = 2
Total = 40

How deep is this from a MLB depth standpoint?
• All 30 MLB catchers gets drafted, no backups are drafted.
• There are 120 MLB starting infielders, we'd be drafting 100.
• There are 105 MLB starting outfielders/dh, we'd be drafting 100.
• There are 150 MLB starting pitchers, we'd be going 4 out of 5 deep into the rotation for each team.
• There are 60 MLB closers/top set-up men, we'd be drafting 50.

In total, including each MLB starting lineup, 5-man rotation, closer and one set-up man, there are 465 fantasy "starters" to draft. Thus, I don't think 450 players is intimidating for a total roster size, and certainly not 400.

In my first NFBC year, I came over from playing CBS roto leagues ... the 15-team, 30 round drafts (or was it 29?) were not the least bit "intimidating". A lot of the CBS guys are actually playing NL or AL only leagues, or keeper leagues, where drafts go well into MLB bench and prospect territory. I think we need to give the newbies a little more credit - the stretch for most new players has more to do with $ commitment than knowing the starting player pool. Likewise, the rule set for many of those low-stakes keeper leagues where player counts probably number in the hundreds of thousands can be ridiculously complicated, far more than what has been proposed here.

[southpaw23]

I like what's being proposed here and I'm certainly interested in nabbing a few teams.
One suggestion I have is to extend the "regular" season out a bit and make each cutline round 2 weeks rather than 3. Most ESPN H2H leagues have league playoffs that span 2 weeks at the end of the season so that is what the masses are used to. It would make the regular season go until 2nd week of August, approximately. Then Cutlines start from there until mid-September.

The main issue I see is getting the points figured out that makes it fair and makes pitching just as valuable as hitting. I see many comments about number of rounds and FAAB periods and not much concerning the scoring system (assuming it's going to be points based).

[poopytooth]

Greg, the concept will definitely work. I like the idea of automatic line up selection based on best points. I know others may want to do line ups.

I think most important to bring in new people would be to keep it simple. 10 teams and 30 rounds may accomplish this. I am not trying to be mean or condescending but if you are in a 10 team league, are you the kind of player looking at Tony Cingrani last year? In my opinion, probably not. I think these leagues would have more shallow pools. It runs against nfbc me, but I think that is where your market is.

Each faab, you could add 5 or so additional players and grow the rosters.

Just my thoughts...I like you are expanding the options. Some of these people will try more traditional leagues and grow things even further.

[Quahogs]

For starters how about this format:

==> 10 teams (think 12 is better but 10 seems to b the direction)

==> 14 starting hitters, 9 pitchers - best ball format points based

==> 30 rd draft
- should be no more than 2.5 hours and give the perception they are NFFC cutline fast
- this is 300 players which is the equivalent of 20 rds of a ME draft. So these drafts will give us ample prep for the ME's
- rds 21-30 in a 15 tm format are a hodgepodge hit or miss full of middlemen and minor leaguers. This way our late game sleepers can still be held close to the vest and don't have to be disclosed.
- if KJ is insistent on 45 rds and exposing his late game sleepers 15x over then I of course will be taking notes

==> FAAB - 2 periods; 1.early in season where we ADD 5 players to get roster up to 35. 2. Midway? where we ADD 5 players to get roster up to 40. No players are dropped which gives us a very good DRAFT Champ quality to the contest. 0's should be minimal since going into cutline playoffs we will have 40 players usable for 23 spots.

thoughts Greg ?

- drafts are fast. They are relevant for the 1st 20 rds of 15 tm drafts. As the season progresses rosters increase to offset lost players.

[uky]

For starters how about this format:

==> 10 teams (think 12 is better but 10 seems to b the direction)

==> 14 starting hitters, 9 pitchers - best ball format points based

==> 30 rd draft
- should be no more than 2.5 hours and give the perception they are NFFC cutline fast
- this is 300 players which is the equivalent of 20 rds of a ME draft. So these drafts will give us ample prep for the ME's
- rds 21-30 in a 15 tm format are a hodgepodge hit or miss full of middlemen and minor leaguers. This way our late game sleepers can still be held close to the vest and don't have to be disclosed.
- if KJ is insistent on 45 rds and exposing his late game sleepers 15x over then I of course will be taking notes

==> FAAB - 2 periods; 1.early in season where we ADD 5 players to get roster up to 35. 2. Midway? where we ADD 5 players to get roster up to 40. No players are dropped which gives us a very good DRAFT Champ quality to the contest. 0's should be minimal since going into cutline playoffs we will have 40 players usable for 23 spots.

thoughts Greg ?

- drafts are fast. They are relevant for the 1st 20 rds of 15 tm drafts. As the season progresses rosters increase to offset lost players.

Do you dare offer this format in AL only or NL only?

[CC's Desperados]

A) Points for stolen bases are way too high - If Billy Hamilton stole 100 bases, how much impact would he have in some weeks?

B) Save points need to be higher than wins. Closers would be devalued in this format.

C)Not a fan of negative numbers for hitters

D)The simpler the pitching points the better - Win, IP, K's, minus for runs allowed - Fanduel model -

E)Can the free agency period be done Monday so it doesn't conflict with the season long games?

F)The last free agent period for the playoffs should be set up over the All-Star break to give the players alive a couple of day to get their thoughts in order.

G)With 45 man roster, would the idea of double headers for drafting work - 25 rounds one and 20 the next?

H)KJ's idea of smaller roster requirements makes sense and it would allowed quicker drafts

I)Can you cut the draft time down to 1 minute instead of 1:15?

J)There has to be one FAAB period before the season if there are going to be drafts in December. The teams drafting in March would have an advantage as far as faab - less injured players to replace.

K)Any thought about all play for you league for your league for nine weeks? Top 3 teams player over one period for the league winnings - one for best record and two for most points - You would keep 30 % of your teams alive for the first round of the playoffs. Would we need a 10 % rule with this idea?

I)Playing off of Steve's idea - 30 round drafts, but one 15 round roster expansion period before the season. It would be a massive free agent period. It would allow players to replace their hurt players plus build roster depth. Give each team $1000 for this period, it would then put every team drafting at different times on the same footing in the in season free agent periods (a second $1000). The team drafting late would have less holes and more news so their information would be higher. Their options for good players on the waiver wire would be less than a team drafting in December. The early teams will have more issues so their bidding would be a lot different. Greg would have to set a max bid of 986 so that each team picks up the required number of players. If someone doesn't pick up enough players, they play the first period short handed.

[Greg Ambrosius]

For starters how about this format:

==> 10 teams (think 12 is better but 10 seems to b the direction)

==> 14 starting hitters, 9 pitchers - best ball format points based

==> 30 rd draft
- should be no more than 2.5 hours and give the perception they are NFFC cutline fast
- this is 300 players which is the equivalent of 20 rds of a ME draft. So these drafts will give us ample prep for the ME's
- rds 21-30 in a 15 tm format are a hodgepodge hit or miss full of middlemen and minor leaguers. This way our late game sleepers can still be held close to the vest and don't have to be disclosed.
- if KJ is insistent on 45 rds and exposing his late game sleepers 15x over then I of course will be taking notes

==> FAAB - 2 periods; 1.early in season where we ADD 5 players to get roster up to 35. 2. Midway? where we ADD 5 players to get roster up to 40. No players are dropped which gives us a very good DRAFT Champ quality to the contest. 0's should be minimal since going into cutline playoffs we will have 40 players usable for 23 spots.

thoughts Greg ?

- drafts are fast. They are relevant for the 1st 20 rds of 15 tm drafts. As the season progresses rosters increase to offset lost players.

This is about where I was headed this morning. Actually, I like the adding 5 spots with no drops to get to 35 and then 40. Drafts are fast, the Best Ball works and the minimal FAAB could actually be a lot of fun. It will take some unique programming to do this and I won't finalize this with IT until we have a final game format, but this is interesting and could be fun.

Other thoughts? But yes, I'm on the same page with you here Steve. Good starting point and better than mine on Page 1. Those drafts would have taken too long and wouldn't have solved the winter time blues of a late night impulse buy like we had in the NFFC Cutline.

[KJ Duke]

A) Points for stolen bases are way too high - If Billy Hamilton stole 100 bases, how much impact would he have in some weeks?
B) Save points need to be higher than wins. Closers would be devalued in this format.
C)Not a fan of negative numbers for hitters
D)The simpler the pitching points the better - Win, IP, K's, minus for runs allowed - Fanduel model -

Proposed scoring equates to the dollar value of stats of roto players. If you think those values are off ... they are off in the same way for roto main event. Without negative numbers for hitters the impact of batting average is non-existent ... like in the daily games, it's then volume over quality.

• Take away negative for batters and you eliminate the BA stat.
• Take away negatives for H+BB allowed, you eliminate the WHIP stat (and middle relievers won't get drafted).
• Reduce SB and increase SVs, you decrease the value of speed guys and increase the value of closers.

So instead of 5x5 scoring, we end up with the equivalent of 3.5 x 4.5 scoring.

[KJ Duke]

- if KJ is insistent on 45 rds and exposing his late game sleepers 15x over then I of course will be taking notes

Ahhh, now the truth comes out!

Shawn does it all the time, why can't I?

[KJ Duke]

Off topic, I finally got the full lifetime rank posted on the blog ... http://nfbcplayer.blogspot.com

[whale4evr]

I'll throw this out even though it probably isn't feasible but how about having each FAAB run as a live (online) auction? That would be an interesting twist to the free agent process. Not sure if it would be a selling point or detraction, but definitely something to get your attention during the season.

[BK METS]

I'll throw this out even though it probably isn't feasible but how about having each FAAB run as a live (online) auction? That would be an interesting twist to the free agent process. Not sure if it would be a selling point or detraction, but definitely something to get your attention during the season.

No, not feasible to hold live online FAAB auctions for 200+/- leagues at the same time.

[Asumijet]

I really like this idea. My passion is for the 15 team leagues; but to add additional teams and drafts at the spur of the moment this winter scratches an itch that I did not know I had.
I like best ball. Can add more teams, without managing the twice a week roster changes. To that end, would it be daily best ball or weekly best ball? Both formats have their pluses and minuses. Will position flexibility make this a difficult programing option?

[Happenstance]

What about increasing roster size by 1 player each scoring period? Rather than FAAB, players would be picked up by waiver wire, with order determined by reverse order of standings (similar to tiebreakers now). It's basically one free agent per period with the allowance for players to pick up more than one player if they forgot/declined to in a previous week?

Combined with a points/best ball approach, it would allow for a 30 rd draft where the only weekly action that was required was to decide on the 10 guys you most wanted to pickup.

[CC's Desperados]

A) Points for stolen bases are way too high - If Billy Hamilton stole 100 bases, how much impact would he have in some weeks?
B) Save points need to be higher than wins. Closers would be devalued in this format.
C)Not a fan of negative numbers for hitters
D)The simpler the pitching points the better - Win, IP, K's, minus for runs allowed - Fanduel model -

Proposed scoring equates to the dollar value of stats of roto players. If you think those values are off ... they are off in the same way for roto main event. Without negative numbers for hitters the impact of batting average is non-existent ... like in the daily games, it's then volume over quality.

• Take away negative for batters and you eliminate the BA stat.
• Take away negatives for H+BB allowed, you eliminate the WHIP stat (and middle relievers won't get drafted).
• Reduce SB and increase SVs, you decrease the value of speed guys and increase the value of closers.

So instead of 5x5 scoring, we end up with the equivalent of 3.5 x 4.5 scoring.

As soon as you drop it to six pitchers, isn't a 5 by 5 league?

[KJ Duke]

Regular lineup Shawn, 14 hitters and 9 pitchers.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Okay, I promise to write a new set of rules shortly to bring us closer to a finished product. Then I need to see if it's feasible to create a contest like that and if there's demand for a product like that. The goal here is to create a contest where folks can sign up and draft in just over 2 hours every night of the week. It's an impulse buy that allows 10 owners to quickly draft a team that has low in-season maintenance but has a fun-filled format and good prizes. Let's see if we can create it.

I don't have time this week to finish the rules as we just finished a busy weekend of basketball drafts and I have to do a few more things to finish up the web site before attending Ron Shandler's Arizona Fall League Symposium this weekend. But I promise to get back on this first thing next week.

In the meantime, help me with the points system scoring. KJ tried to assimilate our 5x5 Roto values with points for those five categories. Some people felt that stolen bases and saves were too high and that the negative points were a bit confusing. Todd offered an alternative with points for all hitting categories that include walks, doubles, triples, etc. Please give me your feedback on what you think should be used for the Cutline Championship if we go to a Best Ball format and a points scoring system. Thanks.

What categories do the daily games use for baseball? I don't know if that matters here, but just curious if they mirror more of what Todd is talking about or more about what KJ is talking about. Let me know what you'd like to see here from a scoring standpoint and that will help as we finalize this game.

Okay, back to the rankings for me and please help with the scoring here. Thanks all.

[Deadheadz]

Don't like the points scoring at all so unless we can work out a way to set it up roto style, I wouldn't play it. You can maybe use the cutline by our current overall scoring, somehow... just a thought.

I, too, much prefer Roto scoring to points but I do see there's a huge number of fantasy players who started off with NFL points leagues then moved to MLB points leagues and if we want to tap into that huge market it's a good idea to have a points based game.
What happens if the enrollment skyrockets? Would the overall prizes ramp up too as they did this past season with the RotoWire Online Chsmpionship?

I'd try this new game once...so long as it's not H2H.


Cheers!

[whale4evr]

Fanduel hitting points are: a point per total base, run, BB, HBP, RBI; 2 pts for a SB, & -.25 pts for an out. The pitching points are: 1 pt for each K, .33 pts for each out, -1 pt for each ER & 4 pts for a win with no points for saves as only starting pitchers are available. This is a salary cap game, though so I don't know how that would translate to draft leagues. Some adjustments would probably need to be made.

[ToddZ]

Most of the scoring is similar to FanDuel with slight tweaks.

Greg -- I'll show you a couple of the sites on Thursday.

[Deadheadz]

I'll throw this out even though it probably isn't feasible but how about having each FAAB run as a live (online) auction? That would be an interesting twist to the free agent process. Not sure if it would be a selling point or detraction, but definitely something to get your attention during the season.

No, not feasible to hold live online FAAB auctions for 200+/- leagues at the same time.

Also, NFBC has no auction software.

[KJ Duke]

Most of the scoring is similar to FanDuel with slight tweaks.

Greg -- I'll show you a couple of the sites on Thursday.

To me, daily game scoring is dumbing this concept down to irrelevance as an NFBC game. The primary appeal of a daily game is simply action, not its scoring system that makes a large majority of players and key statistics completely irrelevant. It's like Mercedes-Benz taking styling queues from Pontiac. Carry on without me if that's the plan.

[BK METS]

Okay, I promise to write a new set of rules shortly to bring us closer to a finished product. Then I need to see if it's feasible to create a contest like that and if there's demand for a product like that. The goal here is to create a contest where folks can sign up and draft in just over 2 hours every night of the week. It's an impulse buy that allows 10 owners to quickly draft a team that has low in-season maintenance but has a fun-filled format and good prizes. Let's see if we can create it.

I don't have time this week to finish the rules as we just finished a busy weekend of basketball drafts and I have to do a few more things to finish up the web site before attending Ron Shandler's Arizona Fall League Symposium this weekend. But I promise to get back on this first thing next week.

In the meantime, help me with the points system scoring. KJ tried to assimilate our 5x5 Roto values with points for those five categories. Some people felt that stolen bases and saves were too high and that the negative points were a bit confusing. Todd offered an alternative with points for all hitting categories that include walks, doubles, triples, etc. Please give me your feedback on what you think should be used for the Cutline Championship if we go to a Best Ball format and a points scoring system. Thanks.

What categories do the daily games use for baseball? I don't know if that matters here, but just curious if they mirror more of what Todd is talking about or more about what KJ is talking about. Let me know what you'd like to see here from a scoring standpoint and that will help as we finalize this game.

Okay, back to the rankings for me and please help with the scoring here. Thanks all.

From the start, I haven't liked this idea, but I suppose I will try it, just because .... I think you need to keep the NFBC player in mind, when creating this game. In the end, I guaranty you that the predominant amount of teams purchased for these leagues will come from current NFBC players, especially since some will purchase 10 teams or more, while others from the "outside" may not invest so much. Since this will be the case, you shouldnt sway too far from the roto style setup. I understand there is no way to make it a roto style game, but, the more I think about it, the second best option would be KJ's original idea of points scoring, which mirrors roto scoring. Its simple and easy to understand. If people want Fan Duel scoring, they can play Fan Duel. This is the NFBC and I think we should be true to what the NFBC is. Just my opinion, FWIW.