An Open Letter to the NFBC

[Baseball Furies]

Greg has neither the time nor the inclination to explain himself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very Roto that he provides, and then questions the manner in which he provides it. He would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a Forecaster, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Classic Potter! Now go back to your life of living in the Land of Make Believe.



In this photo: Potter relaxing at home in La La Land.

[Quahogs]

AH HA ! LOL MOUTH in RARE form... the two posts on LIndy van winkle and KJ batphone Duke were a riot

[Baseball Furies]

I respect any man's opinion, but I have to kindly disagree with the majority of the views here. In my opinion, there are a few areas being left out and some of those have been discussed here already.

Let's face it, $1500 is ALOT of money for most people to play in one contest. When I speak with other fantasy players, ALL of them love fantasy sports, but play $100-$200 home league or CBS SPORTLINE type contests. Especially in baseball. I don't even mention the amount that I spend. I play in several live main events each year with a few DC's and OC's mixed in which to me is a good bit of money between events and travel. As much as I love this game, I can't even consider a Diamond league. The available player pool for high stakes fantasy "baseball" is far more limited than football. Throw in a weak economy over the last five years and there will be growing pains.

The ever increasing daily game has forced game operators to change their thinking. Players are not leaving the NFBC because of the rules or because they are not being heard, they are leaving because they prefer the quick action and no season-long commitment. Payouts are quick and you don't have to plunk down thousands up front. This is a big challenge for the NFBC and other game operators to protect their customer base while adding new players.

Investors. This is a business and they want to see increased YOY gross profit. A short while ago, we had no platform for ANY contest. It's important for the G/T to consider new ideas as ways to bring in extra revenues YOY. The CUTLINE in football was a huge success in numbers. I don't know how many new customers were brought in, but just about every draft sold out. Football is different than baseball and I'm not sure that baseball will have the same success, but there is a need to do something to get new folks in and get their feet wet with our format. With that said, I think that Greg has been extremely customer focused about the process in asking for assistance.

Customer Service. The NFBC provides the best customer service, hands down. They always listen, but have a difficult job in pleasing everyone. They listened when they created the DC and it is an enormous success. Rule changes will never go over with everyone. While many were upset with the pitching change rule, others like myself were fine with the move. Truth is, you can't please everyone all of the time. The boards offer us the opportunity to all make our points and talk it out, which is important for our growth.

Technical Issues. I think that improvements can be made with our software, but I also think that improvements are being made regularly to where I'm optimistic that it will be where we all want it at some point. We should have a premiere platform that is much better than any of the "free" sites. If G/T continues to push IT with ideas, I'm sure we'll get there.

Overall, I'm just glad to be able to have a platform to play this game. It's a business. We need to respect that and understand that without the NFBC, there would be a major hole in our industry for baseball. There will be pro's and con's always. It took alot of guts for Mike to throw this out there. He's a veteran of our game and someone that I look forward to meeting sometime. We need to continue working together to protect our game and be able to see each other every year. We have ALOT of smart and innovative people here. It will all work out. I look forward to seeing everyone in Vegas next year.

Four,
I appreciate the response. Lots of good points, but taking the position that "I'm sure that it will all work out" is like the pilot saying, "Let's just put the plane on auto pilot. I'm sure it will land itself eventually." There is a ton of good about the NFBC, but the bad is what is potentially putting the whole operation at risk. It takes a deeper analysis and a different viewpoint than perhaps most who play this game have to see and understand what I am talking about. However, I am willing to share and discuss it in great deal detail with others who look at it and see it the same as I do with Greg and Tom for the greater good and long term success and sustainability of the NFBC for the sake of all of us who love it and play their contests.

[Navel Lint]

But that's not going to happen unless things change from the top down. I am well aware that the NFBC is not a charitable organization. Growing revenue streams is what I am talking about, but that's the what to do. What's lacking are the creative and effective ways in how to do it.

ALSO...From a previous post....It's the self-imposed limitations which are based in simply in a lack of (or limited) knowledge, creativity, and innovation in the areas of public relations, sales, and marketing (to name a few) on their part that is frustrating

This is Greg Ambrosius you are talking about right???

25 years in the business

Author/Editor/Publisher

FTS Hall of Fame

Fantasy Sports Writers Assoc HOF

This is the guy that doesn't know his own business?????

I don't know you, from what I have heard you are a great guy Mike, and I have no reason to doubt that. And as you say, no need to turn this into a "pissing match".

I'm all for improving the NFBC any way possible, but when you do talk to Greg as you say you hope to do, I wouldn't start out the conversation by telling him he is "lacking"...

[Baseball Furies]

Mouth is a smart guy and an astute business man. MTM has a vision (maybe visions too ) of what he'd like the NFBC to be and probably has good ideas how to get it there. Whether they are feasible or not - not my business. I'm just a player and have been involved in the NFBC/NFFC from the get-go. For 10 years I couldn't be happier with the product the NFBC/NFFC has put out and probably haven't thanked Greg and Tom enough for all their hard work and professionalism.

THANKS GUYS !

Jupinka,
One of the first ideas I am going to ask Greg and Tom to implement is an Annual Kiss Ass Award Trophy and corresponding financial prize. Although KJ may give you a run for the money, I'll bank on you as the perennial favorite.

[Baseball Furies]

But that's not going to happen unless things change from the top down. I am well aware that the NFBC is not a charitable organization. Growing revenue streams is what I am talking about, but that's the what to do. What's lacking are the creative and effective ways in how to do it.

ALSO...From a previous post....It's the self-imposed limitations which are based in simply in a lack of (or limited) knowledge, creativity, and innovation in the areas of public relations, sales, and marketing (to name a few) on their part that is frustrating

This is Greg Ambrosius you are talking about right???

25 years in the business

Author/Editor/Publisher

FTS Hall of Fame

Fantasy Sports Writers Assoc HOF

This is the guy that doesn't know his own business?????

I don't know you, from what I have heard you are a great guy Mike, and I have no reason to doubt that. And as you say, no need to turn this into a "pissing match".

I'm all for improving the NFBC any way possible, but when you do talk to Greg as you say you hope to do, I wouldn't start out the conversation by telling him he is "lacking"...

Russ,
I would like to meet you someday. I appreciate the response. I did not say Greg doesn't know his own business or does not have an impressive resume, but 25 years in the game can also become an impediment if resting on ones laurels and being content at leaving good enough alone is what you're implying is acceptable. For as much as Greg and Tom know (and it's probably a shitload more than I know when it comes to certain elements of this business), it does not make them omnipotent and all-knowing in every facet of business. If you recall the quote from my original post: "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.. I don't think that Greg and Tom really feel this way, but they have blind spots like we all do in seeing ourselves as others do which is the true gift in life if you are able to attain this particular skill. This being said, Greg has my utmost respect, and I whenever I have spoken to him despite our disagreements and the clashes that we have had from time to time, I think I have always been as respectful and professional as possible. My approach won't be any different this time around if I am afforded the same in return when we do speak. And one last thing: I have coached corporate executives and business owners for the better part of 20+ years, and the tact that I have always taken is that if you want to improve someone, first point out what's right about them.

[Baseball Furies]

If Mike was a smart businessman, he'd donate less of his money to the rest of the NFBC

As to the rest of the stuff, I get the frustrations (mostly on the tech side), but I really just want a place that give me the opportunity to play, keeps the stats, and either takes my money or gives me other people's money if I win.

That's right Particelli, you're laughing now, but wait until I get a hold of your cell number this year so that I can give you regular phone calls with advice and a piece of my mind on a daily basis. It's a good thing you played in both Diamonds because I obviously threw you off your game so badly in ours given your horrific finish in that one. Looking forward to kicking your ass again in the $20,000 NFBC Platinum Draft which I am obviously going to have to make happen. But when it does, you can thank me for the opportunity to donate to this one next year in Vegas as well. From what I understand, you can more than afford it with the legal fees you bilk out of your clients.

[Navel Lint]

Russ,
I would like to meet you someday. I appreciate the response. I did not say Greg doesn't know his own business or does not have an impressive resume, but 25 years in the game can also become an impediment if resting on ones laurels and being content at leaving good enough alone is what you're implying is acceptable. For as much as Greg and Tom know (and it's probably a shitload more than I know when it comes to certain elements of this business), it does not make them omnipotent and all-knowing in every facet of business. If you recall the quote from my original post: "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.. I don't think that Greg and Tom really feel this way, but they have blind spots like we all do in seeing ourselves as others do which is the true gift in life if you are able to attain this particular skill. This being said, Greg has my utmost respect, and I whenever I have spoken to him despite our disagreements and the clashes that we have had from time to time, I think I have always been as respectful and professional as possible. My approach won't be any different this time around if I am afforded the same in return when we do speak. And one last thing: I have coached corporate executives and business owners for the better part of 20+ years, and the tact that I have always taken is that if you want to improve someone, first point out what's right about them.

Alright. Sounds good. I'm all for any improvement to the NFBC.

As for meeting, I would love to. I've been in the Chicago ME for my entire NFBC "career" and I've meet some great guys there, but our circle has been getting smaller and smaller these last couple of years. So much so that it has almost turned into a 'home' league and Greg is going to break us up next year. I haven't decided where I'm going next March, although I'm leaning Vegas. I'm going to miss my Chicago friends, but I'm looking forward to meeting a much larger group of new friends that I've only "meet" through the MBoard.

I think you're a NY guy, so I might miss you next year, but if you and Greg and Tom and KJ and Dan and whoever else can keep improving this game, I'm sure that at some time over the next 25+ years (I hope to keep playing that long ) we will meet

[Baseball Furies]

Quite simply this is Mikey being Mikey. A lot of passion but misdirected. Welcome back to the boards MtM.

With that said, this is the only place to be to play high stakes fantasy sports. We all gripe from time to time and the NFBC responds in a timely manner and continues to improve upon the best fantasy sports product around.

Joey,
If you mean me speaking out to back paying customers like you for your benefit and in support of others of the NFBC faithful, then yes, it's me being me.

[Baseball Furies]

Russ,
I would like to meet you someday. I appreciate the response. I did not say Greg doesn't know his own business or does not have an impressive resume, but 25 years in the game can also become an impediment if resting on ones laurels and being content at leaving good enough alone is what you're implying is acceptable. For as much as Greg and Tom know (and it's probably a shitload more than I know when it comes to certain elements of this business), it does not make them omnipotent and all-knowing in every facet of business. If you recall the quote from my original post: "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.. I don't think that Greg and Tom really feel this way, but they have blind spots like we all do in seeing ourselves as others do which is the true gift in life if you are able to attain this particular skill. This being said, Greg has my utmost respect, and I whenever I have spoken to him despite our disagreements and the clashes that we have had from time to time, I think I have always been as respectful and professional as possible. My approach won't be any different this time around if I am afforded the same in return when we do speak. And one last thing: I have coached corporate executives and business owners for the better part of 20+ years, and the tact that I have always taken is that if you want to improve someone, first point out what's right about them.

Alright. Sounds good. I'm all for any improvement to the NFBC.

As for meeting, I would love to. I've been in the Chicago ME for my entire NFBC "career" and I've meet some great guys there, but our circle has been getting smaller and smaller these last couple of years. So much so that it has almost turned into a 'home' league and Greg is going to break us up next year. I haven't decided where I'm going next March, although I'm leaning Vegas. I'm going to miss my Chicago friends, but I'm looking forward to meeting a much larger group of new friends that I've only "meet" through the MBoard.

I think you're a NY guy, so I might miss you next year, but if you and Greg and Tom and KJ and Dan and whoever else can keep improving this game, I'm sure that at some time over the next 25+ years (I hope to keep playing that long ) we will meet

NJ, but I will be out there in Vegas the second weekend I believe based on how the events are scheduled. Definitely the place to be and would love to catch up with you out there. In the meantime, I hope to make some headway on the improvements front.

[Baseball Furies]

Great to have you back, Mike.
Mikey ain't afraid of nothing and has a heart of gold.

I must admit that when the Cutline idea was brought up, I had the same eye roll as a baseball or football fan does when it is announced that two teams will play in Australia or England.
And it is much the same thing, companies or corporations want newer customers. In getting these newer customers, they have to bend a little, like bringing our game to foreign countries or offering 10 team leagues, though we are used to 15 team leagues.
It's the way of the world now.

I don't intend on playing Cutline, but that means little really. I like the traditional game and have never even played a daily game. Others also won't play Cutline for their own reasons and that's ok too. Not every game fits what we are looking for in fantasy baseball.
At the same time, there are thousands that will play Cutline. They'll play it because there is less to do with a team, which seems to be a trend in fantasy sports. Folks want to put the time in our hobby, but at the same time, they don't want to put time in our hobby.

Any time a new game in the NFBC has been introduced, it is met with some resistance. There are still some players who feel we should only have one Main Event, all live, with no internet entries.
We naturally do not like change. But, without change we wouldn't have twice a week lineups or 50 round slow drafts or 12 team Championships in the NFBC.
The NFBC has to evolve.
New games have to be played. I don't have to play them and others in the NFBC don't have to play them.
But some will.
And probably, a lot of new players from ESPN and CBS or especially Yahoo Kids will be drawn to the lotto effect that the Cutline offers.

10 years ago when we saw that little advertisement about a fantasy high stakes challenge, we took the plunge.
A leap of faith.
We were rewarded.
If just holding onto the Main Event only through these 10 years, the NFBC would most likely be gone.
Expansion is a necessity.
Other companies have tried to rival the Main Event by offering more money in a contest.
Even with less participants.
They folded and folks were not paid.
These companies were short sighted. They took a good idea and promised more than they can deliver.
Instead of promises, the NFBC is delivering good ideas.
The NFBC is trying to find a niche for everyone.
From the Yahoo Kid to a two-time Main Event Champion.
It is the best way to go about it.

Doughy,
You know I love you, brother, but then again who in the NFBC doesn't? Thanks for your input. No MTM thread would be complete without it. Looking forward to seeing you again next year out in Vegas, and hope to have your support with any initiatives that I try to get going and implemented with Greg and Tom if I can get them on that path. Enjoying the early e-mail draft this year as usual, and ready for the next one as soon as you are. Give me a call some time to catch up. Was kind of hoping that this year you'd take the plunge and scrap your tin cans and string for one of the newest in modern conveniences known as "the celluar telephone". I have included a pic of one for you below.




They have advanced a bit since the one in this photo, but I figured it be best if you started slow.

[Baseball Furies]

So what you are saying is because you throw more money in that your voice should dictate votes or have more sway factor?

Isn't this what has made a once great democracy a train wreck - by letting the big companies buy congress. How has that worked out???

As an entreprenaur you should know that Business is about making money?? Just because it does not align with your viewpoint does not mean it is wrong.

And when trying to make a point, please don't repeat the same crap for the first 3 paragraphs... you lose peoples interest. Get to the point a little quicker.

BOOOOO on your rant

Rant?! Scroll back in the archives of the boards a bit for my "Mouth Musings". Now THOSE are rants. This my friend was a well-written and eloquently expressed display of message board genius the content of which has obviously gone so far above your head you're going to need a telescope to go back to try to comprehend it.

[Baseball Furies]

So what you are saying is because you throw more money in that your voice should dictate votes or have more sway factor?

Yes? That's pretty much how every business in the world operates. The customers that spend the most money get the most attention and business plans are designed around ensuring that the largest customers remain satisfied. There are no civil rights at issue here so comparing it to democratic ideals is apples/oranges.

That doesn't mean that everyone isn't valued, but it would be delusional and childish to think that the opinions of someone who spends $350 here is as important to the business as someone who spends $30,000. It isn't and it shouldn't be (although Tom and Greg will say it is because they are good at their jobs).

Hooray for capitalism, the free enterprise system, and somebody who friggin' gets it! That's the way it is in my business and the way it should be and needs to be in NFBC which won't just be beneficial to the high-rollers but the $125 player as well. Without the high-roller revenue each year, the NFBC as it's currently set up, isn't going to realize the profits it needs to continue to exist. These figures will never become public knowledge, but like it or not, a significant portion of the NFBC's revenue comes from the smallest population of its client base.

[Baseball Furies]

I don't begrudge Mikey his rant. People, certainly customers, are entitled to express their frustration when unhappy. As much as I love and enjoy this contest, I have on occasion had moments of frustration during my years here and have at times felt the need to express that frustration on these boards or privately through email exchanges with Greg and/or Tom. Many have. I still believe things can be improved, certainly on the technical end.

However, I do believe some perspective is required here. I think back to 2011, a year that saw the demise of two other once very strong contest providers.

That was the year that the WCOFF, the creator of live high stakes contests and the biggest at the time, went under taking with it about $70,000.00 of my winnings, winnings I will never see. I compare the feeling I had then to the feeling I had two days ago when my wife called me to let me know that my check from the NFBC had already arrived, less than a month after the season had ended.

That was also the year that Fanball went under. We all remember Fanball, don't we? Well, we should also remember that there was a brief period there when the closing of Fanball's doors put the future of the NFBC itself in doubt. If Greg had asked us then if we would have supported his keeping the NFBC going with stats done on pen and paper and live scoring through a calculator, many of us may have happily complied. Luckily STATS came aboard and we didn't have to go there. Luckily also, we still have this contest to complain about. What would we accept now to get it back if it hadn't survived.

No contest is perfect, not the NFBC, not any. However I think we should look at the big picture. These contests do not work on huge margins. The NFBC, while imperfect, is still a great contest. One that provides a fun live draft experience, great customer service, challenging contests and competition, one of the best message boards around, and a pool of competitors who are not only great players but great people as well. And most of all, the NFBC provides a contest we can trust.

Man I wish the NFBC could make their FAAB a little (or a lot ) more user friendly, I wish their live scoring was a little less tempermental, I wish their accounting had a few more modern features. Still though and most importantly, I sure am glad the NFBC is around for me to wish for these improvements.

Glenn,
Always well-stated and appreciated input bud. One point that I would like to point out that you brought up is the feature/benefit of being paid. Unfortunately due to some criminals that have operated in this market at one time or another, getting paid is now viewed as a benefit or luxury rather than what should be the expected norm as it is in legitimate business practice in any industry. It should not be the marketing angle for participating in the NFBC, a daily site, or any other contest for that matter. It's great that we get paid, but that doesn't absolve the NFBC from all of what we have urged be changed and improved on for the better. Looking forward to catching up with you soon.

[Baseball Furies]

NFBC=High stakes against the top fantasy BB players anywhere. CBS, ESPN and all the other Fantasy leagues and players out there, are the minor leagues of Fantasy baseball. The NFBC= challenge and a trust and confidence knowing you will get paid. NFBC products and games are tough and not for players who do not do their homework and understand far more about baseball, than just a few stats. Could there be improvements in the NFBC, sure... more often than not the changes and improvements come slow too, but almost all make the NFBC better as time goes on.
Mike does however opine some important frustrations by NFBC players, both new and veteran players. The boards here turn into gripe sessions most of the time. Most opinions do not truly express targeted and focused improvements; they become more of a Bit.h session and ranting against other posters. The MSG boards though are the only avenue to express opinions. Personally I would like to see polls on important changes to gauge the quality of ideas and suggestions. Simple yes or no votes... To expect Greg and Tom to get a feel to how people feel about new ideas and changes by reading these boards is unrealistic, opinions and ideas are all over the map. Poll us, simple yes or no will do. If an idea has 65-75 or more %support it should be seriously considered. Same if it has 25% support.
The NFBC being high stakes, with high buyins and investments has challenges that are now or have been starting to show themselves, mainly a continuing weakening economy. For anyone to think things are getting better out there, you would have to be naive. Disposable income is declining for almost everyone and there is no end in sight. Daily games continue to rise in popularity, and because Fantasy players can get immediate gratification; however they are generally small stakes and the churn rate in players in Daily is huge. Losing sucks and too many Daily players experiance losing rather quickly and quit.
The NFBC does need to improve it’s under the hood applications, Fantasy tools and software. Live scoring stinks, so it eliminates for most, at least me, that instant gratification. The research tools are so-so. I liken the NFBC scoring to the Obamacre web rollout, it does not work well.
The biggest challenges the NFBC faces IMO is the economy, and how to continue to attract new players and balance keeping its core veteran players.
All that being said, the NFBS is best place to High stakes, bar none. It also offers something no other game does, Friendships, camaraderie and face to face experiences in meeting new friends and players. That alone makes it the premier game in town for most of us.
Mikes post was well articulated and makes valid points and riases valid concerns and will make anyone who reads it think about what the NFBC is and what it can become.

Okay I'll keep my response simple for this one: Thanks! Hope it leads to bigger and better things for the NFBC.

[poopytooth]

Assuming Greg/Tom are good with this...Mouth, you want innovation...how about a contest where someone who gets lucky in one league doesn't necessarily cash out. How about an ultimate triathlon. ..15 teams, 3 leagues...One Draft champion...One regular Draft and one auction league...The regular Draft and auction would be faab leagues....points from all 3 leagues would be added up and the highest total wins. Entry fee $5,000....payout the same as ultimate leagues...

I get it doesn't add new players...

Well...challenge extended...

[Baseball Furies]

Gross Revenue for NFBC Diamond Leagues: $300K.
Net revenue, after prize payouts: $20K

In its first year, with very little effort;
NFFC Cutline, gross revenue $275K
Net revenue; nearly $100K

Almost five times as much income as Diamond. More than half as much income as the Main Event.

Just saying. Give Greg, Tom and Stats a break. Let them make their money on the little folk with Cutline, pay their overhead, and then treat the guys they love. I understand Tom will be buying lap dances for MTM next year.

Ummmm, okay let's do a little non-new math here for just a sec. Are you trying to say that getting 220 leagues of 10 players in a completely new contest at a $125 price point can be done with very little effort?! Where do expect these people are going to coming from "little folk" or no little folk? It would take a huge marketing and promotional campaign to pull this off which there has been no mention of and to my knowledge does not exist. Even if fully half of the leagues were to be filled with the players from the NFBC's existing core clientele, which would be a feat in and of itself, it would still take quite a significant campaign to market this to draw in the new players it would need to reach the numbers you are quoting here.

And since you brought it up, the same revenue could be generated from filling less than two more Diamond leagues. A far less daunting task if you know what you're doing in terms of marketing, public relations, and sales. The World Series of Poker gets thousands of 10 K entry fees each year. How do you think it got to this number from the couple of hundred it started with years ago? Because poker is more popular? Fantasy Sports is a massive market, and the NFBC owns the market on the season-long and national, competitive fantasy baseball, but it does not operate that way. It needs to take advantage of exploiting this by building, expanding, and strengthening it's brand. More on this to come...

[ALL-IN JD]

You know it's good to see Mikey "PUNISHING" Greg and Tom by donating (I mean joining) not ONE but TWO DIAMOND LEAGUES!! I am surprised they haven't sold out already!!

[Tom Kessenich]

Mike, you've made a lot of posts in this thread and used up a lot of words to bash what we're doing. That's certainly your right. We're certainly not perfect and don't profess to be. But I'll repeat what Greg said:

Instead of bashing us for what you believe we're not doing how about providing a list of ideas that you believe we should implement? You can post them here or email them to Greg and myself. Either way works for us.

Greg and I are well aware you think little of us and STATS in terms of our business acumen. You've made that abundantly clear time and time again. But we're all big boys and understand that not everyone is going to agree with all of the decisions we make. That's the nature of the business. However, one thing Greg and I have done since this contest (and the NFFC and NFBKC) began is listen to our players for ideas. In fact, our contests have grown in significant ways due in large part because we have listened to our players and sought out the best ways to continue growing, evolving and improving what we offer. That will never change.

As far as new customers go, I can say that one of the largest resources for all of our events has been our show on Sirius Radio. We know this because we talk to nearly all of our new players and ask them how they found out about us and that's what they say. The fact Greg and I are on that channel weekly plus having our ADP list for both baseball and football used exclusively by several other shows on that channel has been a terrific way to bring new players to our contests. We saw that without question in both baseball and football this year.

There's also no question that adding new contests such as the Draft Champions in in all our sports and the Cutline in football brought in hundreds of new players to our contests as well given their affordable price points. So when it comes to bringing in new customers I think we've done more in the last year due to Sirius and STATS than we ever did before with any of the companies we worked for. The Sirius show has been a huge boon to our business and I'm confident it will continue to be. Once our DC leagues begin in the NFBC, for example, we will be the only show on that channel with actual ADPs generated from pay drafts. That's valuable information for baseball players beginning their prep work for next season and we will be the only ones providing it.

Given all that, the idea that we're "resting on our laurels" is rather laughable. But like I said and Greg has said if you or anyone has specific ideas on what we should do to further grow this contest or any of our contests let's hear them. Telling us we're a couple of rubes from the sticks is all fine and good. We get it and have heard it before. But if you really want to grow the NFBC in ways you believe we're not doing? Let's hear 'em. List them here and let's have a discussion about how we can all work together to make the NFBC (and all of our contests) even better. I'm in for that discussion. Are you?

[Nevadaman]

Tom, I do not have satellite radio, but wouldn't mind checking out the show. Is it possible to store/link those shows on this site for everyone to hear?

[Tom Kessenich]

Tom, I do not have satellite radio, but wouldn't mind checking out the show. Is it possible to store/link those shows on this site for everyone to hear?

Unfortunately not. It's all subscription-based. That isn't something we have control over. It's all with Sirius.

[Rainiers]

Gross Revenue for NFBC Diamond Leagues: $300K.
Net revenue, after prize payouts: $20K

In its first year, with very little effort;
NFFC Cutline, gross revenue $275K
Net revenue; nearly $100K

Almost five times as much income as Diamond. More than half as much income as the Main Event.

Just saying. Give Greg, Tom and Stats a break. Let them make their money on the little folk with Cutline, pay their overhead, and then treat the guys they love. I understand Tom will be buying lap dances for MTM next year.

Ummmm, okay let's do a little non-new math here for just a sec. Are you trying to say that getting 220 leagues of 10 players in a completely new contest at a $125 price point can be done with very little effort?! Where do expect these people are going to coming from "little folk" or no little folk? It would take a huge marketing and promotional campaign to pull this off which there has been no mention of and to my knowledge does not exist. Even if fully half of the leagues were to be filled with the players from the NFBC's existing core clientele, which would be a feat in and of itself, it would still take quite a significant campaign to market this to draw in the new players it would need to reach the numbers you are quoting here.

And since you brought it up, the same revenue could be generated from filling less than two more Diamond leagues. A far less daunting task if you know what you're doing in terms of marketing, public relations, and sales. The World Series of Poker gets thousands of 10 K entry fees each year. How do you think it got to this number from the couple of hundred it started with years ago? Because poker is more popular? Fantasy Sports is a massive market, and the NFBC owns the market on the season-long and national, competitive fantasy baseball, but it does not operate that way. It needs to take advantage of exploiting this by building, expanding, and strengthening it's brand. More on this to come...

Actually, I'm doing a little old math. I'm not projecting what could be done...but what already has been done...over on the football side. Read my post carefully, I was refering to the existing Football Cutline, not the proposed Baseball Cutline...the NFFC. National Fantasy FOOTBALL Cutline Championship, not the NFBC Cutline. I wasn't suggesting it could be done, but rather that it already has been done. The Cutline game has been a huge success over there and could be successful over here. It did NOT take a huge marketing campaign.

And Revenue is not nearly important to Stats as something I'll call RAP, or Revenue After Payout. In the betting world, Rap is commonly referred to as "vigor". The RAP for Diamond games is only 6-7% of revenue. The RAP for Cutline Football this year is nearly 40%.

Diamond has huge revenue. It's revenue for the four Diamond Leagues (2 baseball, 2football) this year was $500,O00. But it's RAP was less than $35,000. This figure was roughly just a third of the RAP ($99,000)brought in by Football Cutline this year, even though Football Cutline's revenue is just half of the combined baseball and football Diamond Leagues. Revenue is the less relevant part of the story. RAP is what counts. It's what Stats gets to keep of the signup monies to keep the show on the road.

And this is just the beginning for Cutline. It hasn't even tapped into Baseball or Basketball yet. No reason why it won't work there. And why it won't continue to grow exponentially.

[KJ Duke]

You posted minutes after I posted this piece at like two in the morning. Do you have some sort of hotline like an NFBC Bat-phone that rings at your house as soon as anything is posted taking Greg to task that he calls you on to get you to post something in his defense?

2am ... who goes to bed before then? Truth and justice Mike, not defense.

[KJ Duke]

Jupinka,
One of the first ideas I am going to ask Greg and Tom to implement is an Annual Kiss Ass Award Trophy and corresponding financial prize. Although KJ may give you a run for the money, I'll bank on you as the perennial favorite.

Appreciate the nomination, but I have no chance for a win. I push ideas as hard as you, probably more so.


Main difference is, mine make sense some of the time.

[Baseball Furies]

Mike, you've made a lot of posts in this thread and used up a lot of words to bash what we're doing. That's certainly your right. We're certainly not perfect and don't profess to be. But I'll repeat what Greg said:

Instead of bashing us for what you believe we're not doing how about providing a list of ideas that you believe we should implement? You can post them here or email them to Greg and myself. Either way works for us.

Greg and I are well aware you think little of us and STATS in terms of our business acumen. You've made that abundantly clear time and time again. But we're all big boys and understand that not everyone is going to agree with all of the decisions we make. That's the nature of the business. However, one thing Greg and I have done since this contest (and the NFFC and NFBKC) began is listen to our players for ideas. In fact, our contests have grown in significant ways due in large part because we have listened to our players and sought out the best ways to continue growing, evolving and improving what we offer. That will never change.

As far as new customers go, I can say that one of the largest resources for all of our events has been our show on Sirius Radio. We know this because we talk to nearly all of our new players and ask them how they found out about us and that's what they say. The fact Greg and I are on that channel weekly plus having our ADP list for both baseball and football used exclusively by several other shows on that channel has been a terrific way to bring new players to our contests. We saw that without question in both baseball and football this year.

There's also no question that adding new contests such as the Draft Champions in in all our sports and the Cutline in football brought in hundreds of new players to our contests as well given their affordable price points. So when it comes to bringing in new customers I think we've done more in the last year due to Sirius and STATS than we ever did before with any of the companies we worked for. The Sirius show has been a huge boon to our business and I'm confident it will continue to be. Once our DC leagues begin in the NFBC, for example, we will be the only show on that channel with actual ADPs generated from pay drafts. That's valuable information for baseball players beginning their prep work for next season and we will be the only ones providing it.

Given all that, the idea that we're "resting on our laurels" is rather laughable. But like I said and Greg has said if you or anyone has specific ideas on what we should do to further grow this contest or any of our contests let's hear them. Telling us we're a couple of rubes from the sticks is all fine and good. We get it and have heard it before. But if you really want to grow the NFBC in ways you believe we're not doing? Let's hear 'em. List them here and let's have a discussion about how we can all work together to make the NFBC (and all of our contests) even better. I'm in for that discussion. Are you?

Tom,
I am sorry if you have interpreted what I shared as "bashing". I took quite a long time to gather my thoughts, measure my words, and as eloquently as I could put into words what myself and many others of your paying customers feel. There is nothing that you and Greg have not heard before in that post. And it is because much of what has been a concern or a problem for quite some time for me and others who love this company and this game that continues to go unheard and unresolved, that I chose to again make the attempt to offer a real dialogue on the issues from which the NFBC can benefit and changes can occur. It is unfortunate that whenever a dissenting voice speaks up or an outside-the-box idea is floated, the immediate position that is taken by both you and Greg is one of indignation and hostility to the parties that dare speak their mind to be a stand for something beyond the norm happening. Why does vehement opposition happen so quickly ? Maybe it's because you each take this far too personally. Nothing I wrote was a personal attack or should have been construed or taken as a personal affront to you and Greg. How many times do I personally and others need to praise the both you for all of your work and what you have done with the NFBC before you can hear the negative and be able to take constructive criticism without going off the deep end against your customers? I am not even going to begin to address the rest of what you wrote here in an attempt to debate it all, which I can, but I would rather 'get busy' as you say and begin the conversation. My ideas are varied and many and cover all facets of what you are trying to achieve with the NFBC on behalf of all of us. They are not only my ideas either. There are others in addition to me who would be more than happy in a private forum to step forward and share what they have shared with me for the benefit of you and Greg, but you have to be able to hear them and invest the time and money to perhaps make them a reality. I would love to start the dialogue, so how about it begins with Greg reaching out to me like he said he would three weeks ago when I asked him to about the Diamonds? I would also think that after my initial post on this thread and the numerous ones since then, that it would be important enough of a priority to do so. I believe you both have my number. Feel free to call me at any time day or night at your convenience. I am just as busy as the both of you with my own company, but I consistently make the time for you guys because it's a priority to me. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks.