And it begins ...

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:01 pm

Navel Lint wrote:
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Navel Lint wrote: What I do love about this conversation is how those against it always bring out the “slippery-slope” argument. If we do this, it’s just a hop-skip-jump to virtual bases and imaginary fences. :roll: Sometimes a rule change is just a rule change.
A roll of the eyes is always made when what could happen in the future, or even what is, arguments are made.
If it isn't seen, it can't be.
The world looks flat. It must be flat. Till it's not.
The play at the plate was never a thought of being taken away. Until this generation.
We have a hard time envisioning what the slippery slope brings.
Until then, it's easier just to roll eyes and scoff.
Maybe you're right. Maybe THIS RULE is the slippery-slope rule that was foretold to us 50+ years ago when our fathers talked about the old days before those pussy players started wearing batting helmets.
And catcher's mask, and shin guards, and throat guards, and blah, blah, blah.
You're going another direction.
The wrong one, but a direction, nonetheless.
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Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Navel Lint » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:03 pm

Brock wrote: One thing we haven't seen is old timers interviewed on this subject. I've always held the tradition and baseball records sacred which is why I still think Maris holds the season hr record............
I hope I'm not the only one that sees the irony in this statement relative to the overall topic of this thread
Russel -Navel Lint

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-Reggie Jackson

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:05 pm

The play at the plate is part of the game. Now, it won't be.
Something to be missed.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by bjoak » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:18 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
bjoak wrote:Actually, the thing about pitch counts is that high ones lead to bad results the next time out. Please don't tell me about how that wasn't the case in 1930 when pitchers were throwing 70 mph. In the contemporary era, there is plenty of evidence to support this. Every time a guy throws a no-hitter, my wife says, "Wow, he's going to suck next time out," and she's almost always right, or at least when there's a high pitch count involved. There was one year where the Blue Jays were so bad at managing Halladay that they'd leave him in for 130 pitches on a good day; then he'd give up six runs next time, leave early, and then well-rested threw 130 pitches the following time. Repeat until the end of the season. They never figured out they were the problem.
Bad results, maybe. For the next time out.
Injury? No.
But as I think we're all for raising baseball IQ here, pitch counts are effective; therefore they should be used. Whether it's due to health or keeping runs off the board, at the end of the day it gets the job done. Something that gets lost here is it's a business and in this case business is in agreement with what people want. They want healthy players--so do we. They want the best possible on field results--so do we. There is nothing wuss or not wuss about it.
Chance favors the prepared mind.

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KJ Duke
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:36 pm

bjoak wrote: Something that gets lost here is it's a business and in this case business is in agreement with what people want. They want healthy players--so do we. They want the best possible on field results--so do we. There is nothing wuss or not wuss about it.
Increasingly, business decision are made based on potential liability, not "what the people want" or what the business or participants want. Joe Girardi, by most accounts one of the smartest guys in the game and former catcher, is against it. Shouldn't that count for more than a bunch of lawyers and old men who never played the game?

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KJ Duke
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by KJ Duke » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:18 pm

Interesting ... http://mlbfarm.com/map.php ... how most players come from places that don't have t-ball and overboard rules.

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Edwards Kings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:53 am

I understand there is one exception to the rule. The Mets CAN let Bartolo Colon block the plate (concurrently with blocking both on-deck circles) IF he can run that far (a sundial will be used for testing) so that Mets management can hopefully recoup some of the $20 million (made up of $100 bucks cash, the rest in stadium food credits and coupons to Mickey Dee's) they will pay him over the next two years.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

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Outlaw
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Outlaw » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:25 am

The Game is changing because of the influence of all the MONEY. There is too much of it to be made for everyone inlvolved. Can't have star players getting hurt, it costs too much money. As far as collisons at the plate, its been a rule in Little League for over 30 years, college for almost 20 years and quite frankly has not been an issue that has affected the games. It is one rule that makes sense, and it is something that Fans will not miss. No Fan goes to a ballgame looking for seeing a collsion, unlike Hockey where plenty of Fans want to see fights. The Ray Fosse and Buster Posy collisions are the poster childs for this rule. Catchers and concussions are the next "big" issue they will be talking about. Seems with the all the advanced testing and awareness, a lot of catchers have been going down the past 2 years with concusion symptoms.

There is however an old adage, "don't fix what's not broke". But some new Adage's matter now, "it's all about the money" and "show me the money"
Last edited by Outlaw on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Outlaw
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Outlaw » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:42 am

Maybe someone will someday look at pro sports and see how obscene the money has become and all on the backs of fans paying for 8.00 hot dogs, 10.00 beers, annual cable increases, annual ticket increases, annual increased parking fees. Went to an Oakland A's game this year, 45.00 ticket for just a decent seat, 36.00 for a hot dog, stale nachos, 2 beers and bag of peanuts. parking 15.00. Total $96.00 for just me. Same seat at Yankee Stadium would push the cost to around 250.00 for just me. World series and playoff games are out of the reach of 95% of most Americans.

And $20 million for Bartolo Colon, age 40, PED user.... I'm missing something..


Who Makes the Most Money?
Of the 25 companies with the largest corporate profits in the world, banking, energy and technology firms are absolutely ranking it in.

Collectively, they made $567,856,000,000 in 2012 alone. And that’s only 25 of the most profitable companies in the world. Let’s put all that cash into perspective. Thats enough money to …

… provide a year of funding on mid-range plans under the Affordable Care Act for 144 million Americans (that’s equivalent to nearly everyone in the eight most populous states in the country, California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Florida, Ohio and Georgia).
… outweigh a 68,000-individual herd of African elephants

Artful Dodgers

Let’s look at what some U.S.-based companies have paid (well, really, not paid) in U.S. taxes on offshore profits, as well as some big-money federal contracts companies have received
Bank of America
Offshore profits (2012): $17.2 billion
U.S. taxes paid: None
Citigroup
Offshore profits (2012): $42.6 billion
U.S. taxes paid: None
FedEx
2010-12 profits: $5.7 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2006-12) $10.3 billion
Honeywell
Offshore profits (2012): $11.6 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2006-12): $16.7 billion
Merck
Offshore profits (2012): $53.4 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2006-12): $8.7 billion
Pfizer
Offshore profits (2012): $73 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2010-12): $3.4 billion

How They Do It
In addition to shifting profits overseas, companies are adept at taking advantage of some reasonable and not-so-reasonable corporate tax breaks.

Domestic manufacturing activities
Sure, this makes sense. We want American companies to make stuff and sell it, right? Yeah, but Starbucks rather cleverly lobbied to extend this tax break to roasting coffee beans.

Stock options
One well-known way executives avoid income tax is by taking their income in stock. But this tax break is especially absurd because it allows companies to write off the money like a business expense even though it doesn’t actually cost the company anything. Facebook used this loophole to wipe out its entire tax liability in 2012.

Accelerated depreciation
Duke Energy used this tax break to reduce a huge amount of its tax liability by claiming its machinery is deteriorating. They wrote so much off that one wonders how they got anything done with junk equipment.

Fossil fuel subsidies
Energy companies have lowered their effective tax rates into the low single digits by taking advantage of a tax break that allows them to explore (drill) even if the drilling turns out to be fruitless.

Free lunch
Google employees save big thanks to the tech giant offering them free lunch.

Jet owners tax break
A break allows corporations to deduct the cost of luxury aircraft as they would any other business expense. Jet-making companies like Cessna and Beechcraft have lobbied heavily for the break to continue.


more at: http://www.accountingschoolguide.com/green-giants/

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:20 am

As I was reading your post, one question kept gnawing at me.....Who weighed those African elephants?
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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Outlaw
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Outlaw » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:41 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:As I was reading your post, one question kept gnawing at me.....Who weighed those African elephants?
My guess, some lackey from Congress...lol or possibly Jamie Dimon...

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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:49 am

KJ Duke wrote:Banning home plate collisions. :roll: Next up, ban throwing inside. After that, ban arguing (to be renamed bullying) with ump. We're on a one way trend to wusball.
What the hell, it's always fun to disagree with KJ, so I'll weigh in!! :lol: I've never gone to a baseball game hoping to see a home plate collision and honestly there's just no need for it. The game will be fine without a single one of them. In fact, any third base coach who sends a runner who is going to be out by 5 or more feet should just do a better job of making those decisions. Maybe now they will.

Buster Posey was lost for 5 months over one run?? It makes no sense. But I also think fighting in hockey makes no sense and should be outlawed in the NHL. I guess that just makes me a wuss, which I already knew. ;)

This isn't a slippery slope at all. Now adding instant replay is a slippery slope, one I welcome since there are so many blown calls. Let's make replays quicker so that we get key calls correct.
Greg Ambrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @GregAmbrosius

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KJ Duke
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by KJ Duke » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:56 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:I guess that just makes me a wuss, which I already knew. ;)
No, it makes you sound like a commissioner! :mrgreen:

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:06 am

Nobody goes to a baseball game to see a collision. That's a given.
Nobody goes to a baseball game to see a triple play either.
We still delight in seeing one, because it is part of the game.
I like the drama of seeing a runner trying to score and the defense and prevention of home plate by the catcher.
Now, it'll be like any other base. Try as one might to say that it won't be missed, I'll miss it.
It was part of the game.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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KJ Duke
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by KJ Duke » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:18 am

When I was a little league catcher it was my favorite play. I couldn't wait for a bigger kid to come barreling into home to try and take me out. Loved it. Outlaw tells me the play already was banned years ago in little league. So, first kids can't run into each other, then college players and now pros. That, Wayne, is a damn slippery slope !!!

And who says I don't go to a game hoping to see a collision? I absolutely hope to see a collision, a manager going crazy, a bench fight and a hot girl running naked onto the field. I like to get my money's worth.

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Edwards Kings
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Edwards Kings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:11 am

KJ Duke wrote:When I was a little league catcher it was my favorite play. I couldn't wait for a bigger kid to come barreling into home to try and take me out. Loved it. Outlaw tells me the play already was banned years ago in little league. So, first kids can't run into each other, then college players and now pros. That, Wayne, is a damn slippery slope !!!

And who says I don't go to a game hoping to see a collision? I absolutely hope to see a collision, a manager going crazy, a bench fight and a hot girl running naked onto the field. I like to get my money's worth.
I guess you mean "Greg" as I actually agree with you. Oh, and about the girls too!

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"KJ Duke...where is KJ Duke!"
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by The Mighty Men » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:15 am

KJ Duke wrote:Banning home plate collisions. :roll: Next up, ban throwing inside. After that, ban arguing (to be renamed bullying) with ump. We're on a one way trend to wusball.
It fits in 100% with the wussification of everything these days.
Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.” Isaiah 63:1

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Edwards Kings
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Edwards Kings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:21 am

Outlaw wrote:Who Makes the Most Money?
Of the 25 companies with the largest corporate profits in the world, banking, energy and technology firms are absolutely ranking it in.

Collectively, they made $567,856,000,000 in 2012 alone. And that’s only 25 of the most profitable companies in the world. Let’s put all that cash into perspective. Thats enough money to …

… provide a year of funding on mid-range plans under the Affordable Care Act for 144 million Americans (that’s equivalent to nearly everyone in the eight most populous states in the country, California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Florida, Ohio and Georgia).
… outweigh a 68,000-individual herd of African elephants

Artful Dodgers

Let’s look at what some U.S.-based companies have paid (well, really, not paid) in U.S. taxes on offshore profits, as well as some big-money federal contracts companies have received
Bank of America
Offshore profits (2012): $17.2 billion
U.S. taxes paid: None
Citigroup
Offshore profits (2012): $42.6 billion
U.S. taxes paid: None
FedEx
2010-12 profits: $5.7 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2006-12) $10.3 billion
Honeywell
Offshore profits (2012): $11.6 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2006-12): $16.7 billion
Merck
Offshore profits (2012): $53.4 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2006-12): $8.7 billion
Pfizer
Offshore profits (2012): $73 billion
Taxes paid: None
Federal contracts (2010-12): $3.4 billion

How They Do It
In addition to shifting profits overseas, companies are adept at taking advantage of some reasonable and not-so-reasonable corporate tax breaks.

Domestic manufacturing activities
Sure, this makes sense. We want American companies to make stuff and sell it, right? Yeah, but Starbucks rather cleverly lobbied to extend this tax break to roasting coffee beans.

Stock options
One well-known way executives avoid income tax is by taking their income in stock. But this tax break is especially absurd because it allows companies to write off the money like a business expense even though it doesn’t actually cost the company anything. Facebook used this loophole to wipe out its entire tax liability in 2012.

Accelerated depreciation
Duke Energy used this tax break to reduce a huge amount of its tax liability by claiming its machinery is deteriorating. They wrote so much off that one wonders how they got anything done with junk equipment.

Fossil fuel subsidies
Energy companies have lowered their effective tax rates into the low single digits by taking advantage of a tax break that allows them to explore (drill) even if the drilling turns out to be fruitless.

Free lunch
Google employees save big thanks to the tech giant offering them free lunch.

Jet owners tax break
A break allows corporations to deduct the cost of luxury aircraft as they would any other business expense. Jet-making companies like Cessna and Beechcraft have lobbied heavily for the break to continue.


more at: http://www.accountingschoolguide.com/green-giants/
I agree with you totally...the US Tax code is draconian, unworkable, ridiculous. So your solution must be, as is mine, to end corporate taxation, which is only passed on to US consumers in the form of higher prices. As you of course realize, US corporations are not Smaug. They do not sleep on their riches. They reinvest in the companies (more jobs), pay dividends to Mom and Pop (who are also taxed and therefore the US government is double taxing), and use the profits as one indication of a companies health to attract more investors (more growth, more jobs).

As to the embedded profits (mostly earned off-shore, but certainly some sheltered through loop-holes), no US taxes means those profits come back to the US. Talk about your stimulus package.

"Affordable" Care Act...you crack me up! :lol:
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:26 am

I think there was a comedy routine where a comedian suggested that if trying to change a dynamic, any dynamic, that the person should end every sentence with, "Think about the Kids!"
Professional athletes may as well be those 'kids'.

We dumb down and ease everything for kids. They can get their ass kicked 21-0 in ping-pong, and a parent will tell them 'good job'. Instead of trying to make them a better player.
And then that parent will try to find a way to make the ping-pong ball even lighter for fear it'll put an eye out for their over matched kid. After all, it is easier for them to change an aspect of the game, rather than improving the player.
Sound familiar?

Our monkey bars were made of steel. With sharp edges. Nobody got killed, that I know of. I don't even remember somebody even seriously hurt.
Now, plastic is normal for the playgrounds.
We had gravel, rocks, or if lucky, a blacktop to land on. It toughened us up. A lesson learned for falling.
Now, we have rubber or wood shavings to cushion a blow. No lesson.

In football, we used to be in awe at the hits of Jack Lambert or Dick Butkus.
Now, when there is a good hit, we wait for a flag.
Slippery slope?
We're in the midst of it.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!

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KJ Duke
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by KJ Duke » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:40 am

Edwards Kings wrote: Image

"KJ Duke...where is KJ Duke!"
It's good to be wanted, but she is more than a little scary!

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by BK METS » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:43 am

Outlaw wrote: And $20 million for Bartolo Colon, age 40, PED user.... I'm missing something..
Ok. Let's see, the Mets give a 2 year contract for 20 million to a guy who was one of the elite pitchers in baseball last year (18-6,.2.65 ERA) to help them until Harvey returns from injury, giving them a very solid rotation, and of course, Mr Yankee fan criticizes the Mets. Yes Colon is old and fat. Yes he might not perform up to last year's numbers, but he is not much of a risk considering guys that have seasons like Colon, make 15-20 million per year. The guy knows how pitch. Hey, I am wondering.. who is leading up the Yankees pitching staff next year? Would you rather have (big boned) CC at what he is being paid right now, or bartolo with a short term affordable (tradable, if necessary) contract? Not even close. :D

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KJ Duke
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by KJ Duke » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 am

If Morgana an out-of-uniform Bartolo Colon were standing side by side at a co-ed pickup softball game, who would be chosen first? Skill set might seem similar.

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by EWeaver » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:15 pm

At what point in baseball history do we want to freeze the rules and say "this is the true, pure sport of baseball?" 1866? Late 1960s when the mound was still 10 feet in the air? 1972 before the DH ruined the game? When was it "right?"

Viewing this rule change as symptomatic of the larger wussification of the US populace is misplaced. They are not related. This isn't MLB saying "we're all winners and lets take a stand against bullies and everybody has a right to work!" They are simply taking a step to better protect revenue producing assets - something any marginally intelligent business owner tries to do.

MLB is as darwinian as they come. Perform at an extremely high level NOW and continually in front of thousands of people or you're fired. Do your job FANTASTICALLY or you're fired. #antiwuss #bigtime

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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Navel Lint » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:33 pm

"Things were better/harder/more meaningful in my day"

- Said Everybody, from the beginning of time until today.

...............and probably 5/10/30 years from now too.
Russel -Navel Lint

"Fans don't boo nobodies"
-Reggie Jackson

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Outlaw
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Re: And it begins ...

Post by Outlaw » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:38 pm

BK METS wrote:
Outlaw wrote: And $20 million for Bartolo Colon, age 40, PED user.... I'm missing something..
Ok. Let's see, the Mets give a 2 year contract for 20 million to a guy who was one of the elite pitchers in baseball last year (18-6,.2.65 ERA) to help them until Harvey returns from injury, giving them a very solid rotation, and of course, Mr Yankee fan criticizes the Mets. Yes Colon is old and fat. Yes he might not perform up to last year's numbers, but he is not much of a risk considering guys that have seasons like Colon, make 15-20 million per year. The guy knows how pitch. Hey, I am wondering.. who is leading up the Yankees pitching staff next year? Would you rather have (big boned) CC at what he is being paid right now, or bartolo with a short term affordable (tradable, if necessary) contract? Not even close. :D
Chill out Alan...lol Everyoen knows the Mets are desparate...lol Wasnt critizing, as much as questioning the money, economics and thought process. From a pure pitching point of view, I's rather have Bartolo for this coming year at only 10M vs CC at 23M. I wont debate CC has stunk the past 2 years for what hes paid. He's becoming the 2nd edition of the "Fat Toad" quickly.

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