NFBC All-Time Top Money Winners

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:02 am

Originally posted by bjoak:

Does anyone know how many people competed in this event for 5 years, 4 years, 3, 2, and 1? I was taking a look at the probability of winning--trying to answer the age old question: How much does luck count? The main event has had:

2004 - 195

2005 - 300

2006 - 330

2007 - 375

2008 - 390

We've had anywhere from 3 auction leagues in 2004 to nine the last few years. We've also had 3-4 Ultimate leagues recently and 2 Supers last year.

How much does luck count in the NFBC? Yikes. How low can you go? If this isn't a skill-based game, then I don't know of one.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:03 am

Originally posted by Plymouth:

Greg or Tom,

Will you be updating the life-time standings with the "asterik" to signify a main event league winner for the 2008 league winners soon? It will be interesting to see how many different main event league winners there have been in the first 5 years. Thanks. Yes, I've asked STATS to update that several times. I also want that information. Look for the third star on Stephen Jupinka's name soon and that will be the tell-all sign that all have been applied.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:11 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

How much does luck count in the NFBC? Yikes. How low can you go? If this isn't a skill-based game, then I don't know of one. mostly skill greg. probably the biggest luck is who else is in your main event league

Liquidhippo · Post by **Liquidhippo** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:21 am

How about listing, for each format(15 team Mixed League, 13 team NL Only, 12 team AL Only) average points in the standings for their own individual league.

So if Team A had 100 one year, and had 80 the next, the rankings would look like:

1) Team Smith(3) 108.7

2) Team Robinson(2) 98.5

3) Team A(2) 90

4) Team Doe(5) 87.8

parenthetical number represents # of leagues participated in

It would also be nice to see separate rankings for snake and auction formats.

Obviously this isn't a money ranking, but more of a skill ranking based on how well you perform directly against your competitors in your league over time.

Cowboy Joe · Post by **Cowboy Joe** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:01 am

Although many are on these lists many are missing and some like me who don't belong in the same group as the better skilled players got lucky and made them.

Believe me nobody will pick me as favorite in any auction next year. Heck I won't pick myself.

[/QB]Walla, are you related to Lou Holtz? You are the reigning champion, and there is a huge target painted on your back for 2009. Don't look back 'cause everybody's chasing you.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:17 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by bjoak:

Does anyone know how many people competed in this event for 5 years, 4 years, 3, 2, and 1? I was taking a look at the probability of winning--trying to answer the age old question: How much does luck count? The main event has had:

2004 - 195

2005 - 300

2006 - 330

2007 - 375

2008 - 390

We've had anywhere from 3 auction leagues in 2004 to nine the last few years. We've also had 3-4 Ultimate leagues recently and 2 Supers last year.

How much does luck count in the NFBC? Yikes. How low can you go? If this isn't a skill-based game, then I don't know of one. [/QUOTE]Thank you very much, but I was asking for something a little different. In order to decide how much luck counts I would need to calculate how many multiple-time winners there should have been and how many there actually have been. To do this I would need to know how many players played a total of 5 years, 4, etc. It is not as easy as just saying there were 195 owners in 2004 and therefore 195 five-time owners because many of those people didn't play in all of the following four years. I need to know how many actually played in all five years and then four and so on.

I agree it is a skill game--just wanted to see how much by the math.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:10 am

Brian, just go to the Lifetime Standings. That data is all there, although co-managers are also listed. For the most part, the information that you're looking for is there once we update the asterisks by the owners' names with 2008's results. STATS is going to do that today, hopefully.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:26 am

Hmm, would help if I could get Internet data to paste onto a spreadsheet correctly. Someone pm me if you know how to do that and want to help a guy out.

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:08 am

Unless my fingers failed me, here is that information:

By the way, while STATS shows 443 lifetime players, there are actually 450. Stats has two players ranked 41st, two ranked 138th, two ranked 340th, two ranked 341st, two ranked 346th, two ranked 359th and two ranked 405th, without adjusted the players under the tied players. These appear to be partners, so use that data for what it is worth.

Five Year Players (78)

2 Andrew Nolan *

3 Stephen Jupinka **

4 Christopher Stephenson *

7 Shawn Childs ***

13 Eric Price

30 Mark Srebro *

32 Rick Thomas *

35 Martin Bedell

38 Scott and Jason Zeidman

44 Jeff Thomas *

45 John Hogan **

46 Pat DePirro *

53 Karl Mische

58 Korey Gardner

63 Jeff Dobies *

65 Rich Verost

66 Joe Thelen **

67 Ari Benjamin

68 Phillip McDonald *

69 Eddie Gillis

73 Aaron Seefeldt *

87 Paul Weber

90 Kenneth Magner

92 Mike O'Connor

94 Douglas Jaffe **

98 Todd Nord

105 Charles Gillespie

124 John Wojtowicz

133 James Cummings

134 Jesse Herron *

142 Mark Janik

144 William Tyrer

145 Michael Edelman

150 Eric Pallotti

159 David Longood

162 Kevin Grady

164 Steve Wells

166 Donn Johnson

172 Terrence Haney *

176 Rey Diaz

177 Gerry Scotto Di Marco

183 Boaz Levy

189 Emmett Ruland

191 Jay Bufis

201 Kenneth Norred

208 Gregory Morgan *

215 Ray Murphy

216 Dohn Terrell Jr.

221 Dale Morgan *

223 Laurence Edelman *

225 Leonard Ringle *

229 John Rundle

232 Glenn Schroter *

237 Artie Rastelli *

241 Peter Lukowicz

244 John Dean *

253 George Kleemann

254 Mark Yagan *

260 KJ Duke *

272 Todd Zola

274 Wayne Edwards

279 Salvatore Vella

280 Perry Van Hook

293 Michael Cameron *

302 Gene McCaffrey

303 Brian Walton

304 Bradley Shairson

306 Norm Kent

320 John Swol *

327 Lenny Diveglio

328 Howard Markowitz

332 Scott Stauffer

347 Don Mathis

352 George Beason

355 John Menna

365 John Crane

374 David Zwickel

433 Jack Lyons

Four Year Players (100)

16 David DiDonato **

20 Dave Clum

21 Joseph Anello **

24 Joe Martino *

25 David Deterra *

31 Eric Peden *

34 Dickie V

39 Brian Oakchunas

41 David Conkey *

41 Matthew Snoga *

48 Joe Kruk *

50 Brent Grooms *

51 Dan Kenyon **

61 Nick Cassavetes

62 Lindy Hinkelman

71 David Van Der Stuyf *

72 Masters

74 Lance Goebel

77 Sullivan

79 Jace Reed

80 Joshua Sack

81 Brian Oldenski *

83 Clark Olson **

84 Henry Cantrell Jr. *

85 Rob Maysey

91 Michael Caputo *

95 Brian Zirlin

96 Jay Pobis

102 Kent Stermon *

111 Tom Lord **

112 Bruce Lev

118 Sean Brinlee

119 Eric Albright

121 Evan Satinoff

127 Kevin Bass

132 Lewis Lipsey

136 Oscar Solamillos

143 Edward Nolan

147 Larry Schechter

151 Ron Ludwin

152 Albert Petit

153 Robert Jurney *

157 Kevin Rogers *

163 Brett Washburn

165 Sandi Kleemann

169 Jason Aberli

171 Steve Pletkin *

173 Jeff Peters *

174 Chris Beeler

175 Rob Coffee

178 Steven Tavoso *

179 Emo Bonaminio

186 Henry Tang

190 Jim Ferrari

193 Win Murray

200 Mike Duggan

206 Larry Lensak

211 Scott Fleming

214 Rich Sutton

226 Michael Kleemann

228 Stephen Ranaghan

230 John Zaleski

231 Pat Tremaglio

240 Justin Esposito **

248 Thomas Greenwald *

249 Bob Ashmen

257 Charles Bennett

258 Peter A. Plati III *

259 Randy Barbour

261 Richard Gordon

265 Brian Zeid

267 James Vassallo

268 Ron Kraus

275 Duke Viveros

276 William Burak

277 Michael Zukowski

286 Ken Skrocki

290 Kelly Uganski

292 Pobis

295 Mullin

297 Stanley Kaye *

300 Chris Throop

308 VINNY MARCONE

322 Dominic Cirigliano

335 Will Robertson

342 Chris Schinker

343 Jeff Cooper *

353 Richard Kidd

356 Scott Silberfein

362 Tom Connors

364 Steven Janovici

367 Bruce Barnard

373 Dr. Matt Hickok

375 Kevin Sullivan

381 Ed Garcia *

382 Wilbur Soto

384 Bruce Bevacqua

396 Bobby Brendler

424 Schinker

431 Scott Keikoan

Three Year Players (104)

10 Jared Eagle *

11 Lopi Asch *

14 Jason Duponte

15 Bob Mazur *

17 Brian Eagle *

27 Mrs. Josh Hamilton *

29 Brian Rudd

37 matt mickle **

40 Joseph Monaco *

43 Andy Kaufmann *

52 Stephen Fiore

57 Kevin Kirves

59 Michael Bozzi

75 Richard Bales, Jr.

86 Robert FitzGerald

88 Dave Kerpen *

99 Jim Christie *

100 Leonello Savo, Jr

101 Terry Passalacqua

103 Kevin Forman

106 John Paolucci *

107 Tim Scanlan

108 David Cushard *

114 Carlos Barrionuevo

116 Gregg Janoff

117 Bradley Miller

122 Richard Lepow

126 Dave Dvorchak

128 Gino Yu *

129 Joe Mullins *

130 Andre Bourcier *

137 Chad Silverstein

139 Billy McAleer

140 David Biester *

148 David Geisinger

149 Michael Samuels

154 Alan Salem

161 Stephen Keiran jr

167 Mike Ladd

180 Michael Lewis

181 Robert Giese

182 Zac Staples

185 Chris Plouffe

188 Scott Monroe

192 Nate Ravitz *

197 Erik Konyk

212 Pete Baczynski

217 David Shoup

219 David Bowen

220 Scott Newman

227 Hojin Kyung

233 Marc Meltzer

234 R.T. Davis

235 Matt Dillon

239 Robert Zidonik

243 Erik Sudigala

246 Ira Kerker

247 Paley

251 Peters, Jr.

256 Andrew Robinson

263 Mike Wheeler

264 Gregory Glukhovsky

266 Chris Goudey

270 Bill Strickler

278 Keith Yoshimura

282 Vern Neumann

285 Gerard Venezia

287 Nick Cole

291 Ed O'Donnell

298 Jeff Kratz

299 Doug Moore

301 Patrick Gagne

307 Jim Schumacher

312 Matthew Ross

315 Josh Jantas

318 Daniel Williams

321 David Martino

326 Rick Kanfer

339 Frank Heron

344 Daniel Cox

349 Doug McCready

358 James Hoffstetter

360 John S. Longo

363 Jason Steeves

369 J.T. Visco

372 Steven Kalfaian

379 Chris Hill

380 Douglas Lukas

389 Rob Conti

390 Steve Kraut

391 Josh Schwartz

397 Michael Lins

400 Lance Turbes

401 Robert Glade

407 Carl Greer

416 Scott Simonetti

419 Michael Aday

420 Brian Brandt

421 Samuel Price

426 Richard Williams

427 James Fares

429 Michael Miranda

430 Kevin McGrath

439 Harold Goodman

Two Year Players (168)

1 Chris Poulson *

5 Aaron Smith

6 Ned Donohue *

8 Kyle Borth

9 Barry Fishman *

12 Jim Thelen *

18 Kevin Deckel *

19 Eddy Betancourt *

22 Tim Short

23 Dan Satinoff

26 Winston Sapigao

28 Ryan Messick

33 Cory Sarge

36 Alex Pletkin *

42 Vito Luongo

47 Roth *

49 John Piontek

54 Mike Diedrich

55 Chris Garcia

56 Lowell Kaplan *

60 David Dorfman

64 Jeff Tudor

70 Brett Goldblatt

76 Tim Williams

78 Marvin Breese

82 Nathan Tennessen

89 Herb Goebel

93 Craig Kielinski *

97 James Rodriguez

104 Richard Kulaski

109 Aram Penaranda

110 William Beausoleil

113 Scott Jenstad

115 Mark Wigent

120 Mark Laronga

123 Mike Williams

125 Ron Spurgeon *

131 Sammy Zahler

135 Bill Alexiou

138 Terry Kent

138 Thomas Wachter

141 John Gifford,Sr

146 Mark Bandelin

155 Chad Meyer

156 Yoni Bornstein

158 Greg Marta

160 Joe Anthony

168 David Cushard

170 John Kerr

184 Jim Ruland *

187 Adam Lippert

194 Daniel Heath

195 Jeremy Chen

196 Dan Williams

198 Paul Spradling

199 Mark Plimley

202 Robert Mauri

203 damien passalacqua

204 Anson Chan

205 Tom Brennan

207 Michael Delgado

209 Mark Dickter *

210 Bob Steiner

213 Joseph Treffiletti

218 Larry Katz

222 gennaro fontano

224 Scott Renda

236 Ken O'Brien

238 Parnelli Baker

242 Charles Levitz

245 Carl Borgatti

250 Chris Dalzell

252 J.P. Kastner

255 Kyle Baldwin

262 Dave McDonald

269 Chris Fargis

271 Michael Fishman

273 Jeff Edwards

281 Dave Gawron

283 Michael Crescenzi

284 Patrick Lyons

288 Jesse Finke

289 Jim Mieszala

294 Neil Caracciolo

296 Jeffrey Price

305 Mark Cappelano

309 Michael Cohen

310 Mike Kaye *

311 Charles Papenfus

313 Scott Gunaca

314 Trevor Braunig

316 George Vagelakos

317 Herbert Eroh, II

319 Andrew Fiore

323 Thomas McDevitt

324 Eli Grimmett

325 John Pausma

329 rusty clark

330 Todd Lammi

331 Dave D'Vorehak

333 Paul LeMarbre

334 David Alfaro

336 Jason Krieger

337 Brad Thibodeaux

338 Lori Rubinson

340 Randall Oser

340 stephen broege

341 Dr. Christopher McGowan

341 Joseph Saporito

345 Jeff Meyer

346 Dana Harvey

346 Steve Melillo

348 Joseph Palombini

350 Mike Savaria

351 Gary Cowham

354 Adam Koplan

357 David Seaborn

359 Daryl Williams

359 Mark Lally

361 Ken Bayes

366 Jason Dallaglio

368 Dunno Eroh

370 Robert DeNofrio

371 Harlan Wittenstein

376 Allen Kimman

377 Paul Sidikman

378 Chris Surawski

383 Dennis Gahry

385 Michael Pisano

386 Rick Gromek

387 Jeffrey Price

388 Judy Mathis

392 Kevin Deckel

393 Dan Semsel

394 Jason Kass

395 Gary Cutler

398 Jack Haan

399 Michael Warren

402 Leif Lasagne

403 Erick Kontogiannis

404 Andy Shane

405 Joey Liner

405 Lee Pollak

406 rick mclaughlin

408 Baloga

409 Charlie Wiegert

410 Chris Rastelli

411 Chris Kleemann

412 Shane Pullen

413 Heath Shaffer

414 Joe Esposito

415 Adam Hollander

417 Karl Roessler

418 Bob Migliozzi

422 Jerry Sloan

423 Scott Alper

425 Thomas B. Smith

428 William Jansons

432 Jim Nicola

434 Michael Pomponio

435 jeff prescia

436 Brant Goldsmith

437 Richard Seiferheld

438 Peter Berall

440 George Puhl

441 Edward Mick

442 Scott Heidner

443 Timothy Stevens

[ October 13, 2008, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Buster ]

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:38 am

Thanks, Buster. I will have to look at it and see if I can root out the partners. Even tougher are the people who've played together and then separated. And all that would be a lot easier to do if the totals were all correct, but I know at least Andy Nolan's score is incorrect and doesn't match up with Chris. Not sure how many others are incorrect. Not sure if it is all worth it. This stuff might kill a couple of idle hours but it is not going to help anyone do any better in this contest.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:59 am

Skill vs Luck, When Greg and Geeko agree you know its wrong. Do you have to have some skill? Yes.

Do you have to be the most skilled player to win? No! A skilled player has a better chance to win just like poker. But there is luck. If there wasn't no one would play. The main event is like the world series of poker. You could be the best player at a table and never get the hand. Injuries etc. So yes luck is a big factor. It is a game of skill. But don't let that scare away the new people.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:06 pm

Originally posted by Walla Walla:

Skill vs Luck, When Greg and Geeko agree you know its wrong. Do you have to have some skill? Yes.

Do you have to be the most skilled player to win? No! A skilled player has a better chance to win just like poker. But there is luck. If there wasn't no one would play. The main event is like the world series of poker. You could be the best player at a table and never get the hand. Injuries etc. So yes luck is a big factor. It is a game of skill. But don't let that scare away the new people. when walla wins a league, i can see how you think it's luck. still though, it's only a satellite league and not a main.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:16 pm

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Walla Walla:

Skill vs Luck, When Greg and Geeko agree you know its wrong. Do you have to have some skill? Yes.

Do you have to be the most skilled player to win? No! A skilled player has a better chance to win just like poker. But there is luck. If there wasn't no one would play. The main event is like the world series of poker. You could be the best player at a table and never get the hand. Injuries etc. So yes luck is a big factor. It is a game of skill. But don't let that scare away the new people. when walla wins a league, i can see how you think it's luck. still though, it's only a satellite league and not a main. [/QUOTE]

I got my butt kicked in that league, but still finished in top half at least. Not to denigrate Walla's achievement, but I think luck plays into February leagues far more. It is just tough when you get to opening day and four of your "starters" are not starting. I spent three months in last place just trying to play catch up with the injuries and demotions this year. I think I am learning. At the very least it requires a different strategy on draft day.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:37 pm

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Walla Walla:

Skill vs Luck, When Greg and Geeko agree you know its wrong. Do you have to have some skill? Yes.

Do you have to be the most skilled player to win? No! A skilled player has a better chance to win just like poker. But there is luck. If there wasn't no one would play. The main event is like the world series of poker. You could be the best player at a table and never get the hand. Injuries etc. So yes luck is a big factor. It is a game of skill. But don't let that scare away the new people. when walla wins a league, i can see how you think it's luck. still though, it's only a satellite league and not a main. [/QUOTE]

I got my butt kicked in that league, but still finished in top half at least. Not to denigrate Walla's achievement, but I think luck plays into February leagues far more. It is just tough when you get to opening day and four of your "starters" are not starting. I spent three months in last place just trying to play catch up with the injuries and demotions this year. I think I am learning. At the very least it requires a different strategy on draft day. [/QUOTE]ahhh, that puts it in the right perspective. it was a feb league. that's almost like it doesn't even count.

league has to at least be in march to count.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:53 pm

Yep, those 16 days made it for me. A skill player like Geeko should of won the Mag 2 draft though.

Yep luck must play a part.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:01 pm

Originally posted by Walla Walla:

Yep, those 16 days made it for me. A skill player like Geeko should of won the Mag 2 draft though.

Yep luck must play a part. To be fair, Mark (GEKKO), only drafted the Mag 2 team, I took it from there. He gave me all the tools to win the league, if there is fault for him not winning Mag 2, it would be on me.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:23 am

DOUGHBOYS, Your one of the best. Just proves my point. Luck is a big factor.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:09 am

Walla,

I agree about the luck element. I know I am in the minority, but percentage wise, skill/luck needed to succeed would be 30/70.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:45 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Walla,

I agree about the luck element. I know I am in the minority, but percentage wise, skill/luck needed to succeed would be 30/70. I don't think its that simple. Someone with no skill has almost no chance to win. But once you achieve a certain skill level, luck plays a very large role. If I am playing Britney Spears I think skill will determine the winner 99% of the time. If I am playing Doughboys I think luck will determine it more than half the time. If I'm playing Walla, its somewhere in between.

[ October 14, 2008, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:07 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Walla,

I agree about the luck element. I know I am in the minority, but percentage wise, skill/luck needed to succeed would be 30/70. I don't think its that simple. Someone with no skill has almost no chance to win. But once you achieve a certain skill level, luck plays a very large role. If I am playing Britney Spears I think skill will determine the winner 99% of the time. If I am playing Doughboys I think luck will determine it more than half the time. If I'm playing Walla, its somewhere in between.

[/QUOTE]All true....well except the last part. I was applying the 30/70 split to this contest. With the economy getting worse the gap would widen more since less novices would enter and only the players with confidence in their skill level would enter.

Although I am sure Brittany would not feel the pinch if she decided to enter the contest

. I would want her.....lost my train of thought... oh yeah. I would want her in my league sitting by me.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:10 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Walla,

I agree about the luck element. I know I am in the minority, but percentage wise, skill/luck needed to succeed would be 30/70. dan - usually i agree with what u have to say, but in this case i have to strongly disagree. it's gotta be 70/30 or more in favor of skill.

i say this as someone who plays both fantasy baseball and fantasy football. if u are looking for a contest that is 30/70 in favor of luck, try fantasy football.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:23 am

Mark,

I know I'll get a lot of disagreement on the statement. I'll elaborate tomorrow when I have more time. I started out with fantasy football, the luck factor drove me away.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:01 pm

There is no argument. Fantasy football is too small of a sample. It is like if the baseball season ended after a few weeks. Do you normally have a firm winner at that point?

ssmarsh · Post by **ssmarsh** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:18 pm

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Walla,

I agree about the luck element. I know I am in the minority, but percentage wise, skill/luck needed to succeed would be 30/70. I'd split it 45% skill (how well you draft) and 55% luck. For me, luck breaks down into to subcategories. First, it's players avoiding injury. Second, it's getting huge returns from guys you expected very little from (see Cliff Lee). If you draft well and get your fair share of "luck", you're always in the race for your league title.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:48 pm

Originally posted by ssmarsh:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Walla,

I agree about the luck element. I know I am in the minority, but percentage wise, skill/luck needed to succeed would be 30/70. I'd split it 45% skill (how well you draft) and 55% luck. For me, luck breaks down into to subcategories. First, it's players avoiding injury. Second, it's getting huge returns from guys you expected very little from (see Cliff Lee). If you draft well and get your fair share of "luck", you're always in the race for your league title. [/QUOTE]injuries are just an excuse. in baseball, skillful managers can overcome injuries, even to a key player or two.