Slo- Drafts and New Rules

DOUGHBOYS
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Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:50 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

How long before the mob wants the LOOOOONG MON-THU, FOUR-DAY STRETCH cut in half?



Going from once per week to twice per week is as big a jump as possible toward daily moves.



TWO YEARS, and this contest will have 3 times per week moves...bank on it.



Just get the regulars to whine about missing a few starts a week, and PRESTO...you have a new game. Again with the future scare tactics. We need a new act, Lance. :eek:
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Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:51 pm

I've played in daily leagues, and never will again.



No bull, just fact.
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Post by sportsbettingman » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:53 pm

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

How long before the mob wants the LOOOOONG MON-THU, FOUR-DAY STRETCH cut in half?



Going from once per week to twice per week is as big a jump as possible toward daily moves.



TWO YEARS, and this contest will have 3 times per week moves...bank on it.



Just get the regulars to whine about missing a few starts a week, and PRESTO...you have a new game. Again with the future scare tactics. We need a new act, Lance. :eek:
[/QUOTE]Again with the "I'm entitled to play my bench players, even when I don't suffer any injuries" ...or the "I'm ENTITLED to never suffer injury...it's unfair when my player gets dinged up and yours don't" act...also a tired argument.
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Post by sportsbettingman » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:55 pm

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

I've played in daily leagues, and never will again.



No bull, just fact. Please explain what you didn't enjoy?
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Post by Cornhusker » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:18 pm

The ability to sub out hitters on Friday would be a huge improvement for this event.

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Post by Glenneration X » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:21 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

I find it offensive that the same person who NEEDS twice per week moves ALSO says they do not want daily moves.



Total BS. Hello Lance....I think you would then be offended by me.

I am not a proponent of daily moves AT ALL. In fact, I would be a loud voice against it if it were up for debate.



I do not compare Friday moves to daily moves nor do I think Friday moves are a step in the direction of daily moves. As Dough stated earlier, Friday moves are more in line with our current DL setup, but takes the arbitrary nature of the rule out of the equation.



I also think Friday moves more than addresses a player's "dings" as you put it.....I've lost more than 100 games due to the current setup since the All-Star break alone. I'm sure others have suffered similar fates. For a contest which is the best of the best and searches to find the best of the best Fantasy Baseball owner, should its outcomes be determined by lost games that can't be controlled by the best?



Glenn

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Post by sportsbettingman » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:22 pm

I don't understand all the fuss over allowing free-range subbing of hitters, yet keeping it "old school" with the pitchers.



F-the DL rule all together and simply open everything up to all positions to re-set their entire lineups each Monday and Friday.



Let the game theorists take down all the money until the dead money players decide to quit because it becomes too much work, and not enough fun.



Everyone is happy.
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Post by sportsbettingman » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:25 pm

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

I find it offensive that the same person who NEEDS twice per week moves ALSO says they do not want daily moves.



Total BS. Hello Lance....I think you would then be offended by me.

I am not a proponent of daily moves AT ALL. In fact, I would be a loud voice against it if it were up for debate.



I do not compare Friday moves to daily moves nor do I think Friday moves are a step in the direction of daily moves. As Dough stated earlier, Friday moves are more in line with our current DL setup, but takes the arbitrary nature of the rule out of the equation.



I also think Friday moves more than addresses a player's "dings" as you put it.....I've lost more than 100 games due to the current setup since the All-Star break alone. I'm sure others have suffered similar fates. For a contest which is the best of the best and searches to find the best of the best Fantasy Baseball owner, should its outcomes be determined by lost games that can't be controlled by the best?



Glenn
[/QUOTE]Daily moves would reward the BEST manager with the most depth and best management skill.



Please explain why you do not like daily moves.
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Post by Glenneration X » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:39 pm

Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

Is there more strategy in daily change Yahoo leagues? Most players say no to that, because you shuffle people in and out with limited variables in play, almost like you could train a monkey to do, or maybe a horse if you count how many times he stomps his hoof.



Given that, how can a twice a week change league possibly have more strategy than a weekly change league?



Let's say you have Chipper Jones, and he has a strained glute (ass) muscle and you are trying to decide whether to start him over Edwin Encarnacion. You weigh his 6 or 7 match-ups including ballpark, his likelihood of injury that would make you miss 6 games, versus starting Edwin Encarnacion, who is much more likely to play, may or may not have a batting combination of ballparks or matchups (Lefty/Righty) and who might do damage over a week's span on a given category or categories. If the changes are every 3 days, the stakes of all those changes and the strategy falls dramatically . The injury-prone component goes away almost completely . The impact of any decision falls dramatically.



Its like being able to sub in players off your bench in football every QUARTER!!!! Its ridiculous.



Vote "No" to bi-weekly changes.



Thank you.



-Craig
Sebadiah....I'm sorry, but I believe you are completely on the wrong track here. Outside of the example you place on whether to play someone with a possible day to day injury or not (though I wonder why this is even considered strategy, it's more like a roll of the dice), there is much more strategy involved with Friday moves.



There is more strategy involved with roster setup....with more lineup changes allowed, it increases the value of having backups at every position on your bench & multi-positional players (since you can change players prior to having the opportunity to make a roster pickup to fill a position).



There is more strategy involved with setting up your lineup.....while you still might start the more skilled player at a position if he has 6 starts verses 7 starts for a player you would leave on your bench, you might think differently if the ratio was 3 starts versus 4 starts from Monday to Thursday considering the percentage increase goes from 14% to 33%, more than double.



I even think there's more strategy involved in your day to day injury example.......I believe if you have a Chipper or Bradley or JD Drew type suffering a day to day injury on a Monday in our current setup, its a no-brainer to sit them rather than risk SEVEN games. However, if the risk was reduced to 3 or 4 games, well, now you have a decision on your hands.



Throw in the fact that lefty-righty pitching matchup ratios can be more pronounced during shorter periods, the fact that over 3 or 4 games you have greater decisions about facing tough pitching staffs or playing in pitcher's or hitter's ballparks, etc. increases the decision making options for the Fantasy player.



Again, the only thing I think switching from the current DL rule to a Friday moves rule is to put the results of this contest back in the hands of the Fantasy player and out of the arbitrary hands of luck.



Glenn

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Post by Glenneration X » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:48 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

I find it offensive that the same person who NEEDS twice per week moves ALSO says they do not want daily moves.



Total BS. Hello Lance....I think you would then be offended by me.

I am not a proponent of daily moves AT ALL. In fact, I would be a loud voice against it if it were up for debate.



I do not compare Friday moves to daily moves nor do I think Friday moves are a step in the direction of daily moves. As Dough stated earlier, Friday moves are more in line with our current DL setup, but takes the arbitrary nature of the rule out of the equation.



I also think Friday moves more than addresses a player's "dings" as you put it.....I've lost more than 100 games due to the current setup since the All-Star break alone. I'm sure others have suffered similar fates. For a contest which is the best of the best and searches to find the best of the best Fantasy Baseball owner, should its outcomes be determined by lost games that can't be controlled by the best?



Glenn
[/QUOTE]Daily moves would reward the BEST manager with the most depth and best management skill.



Please explain why you do not like daily moves.
[/QUOTE]Daily moves would make this a completely different contest, one that I would not be interested in playing.



Friday moves maintains the essence of this contest, by merely taking a component of the contest (the DL rule, that was put in place with the right intent but the wrong execution) and improve upon it.



Glenn



[ September 24, 2009, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

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Post by Sebadiah23 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:02 pm

I agree that twice a week (hitter-only) would not kill the game like daily moves would, but everyone is ignoring the fact that once-a-week changes adds some tension, adds to the fun and reward when the owner makes a good decision. Changes that are more often and have less impact are boring. I have tons of experience in both types of leagues, and for the first time in years I stopped making changes in a daily league because I was bored out of my mind. I had a playoff team but I had so many obvious moves that i couldn't be bothered with it. I have to agree with the guy who said that multi-week moves dumbs down the league and brings us closer to the Tom dick and Harry novice leagues that lead us to here in the first place.
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Post by sportsbettingman » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:05 pm

The more you "put the game into the hands of the players" by making the game too tedious to be competitive in (and thus enjoy)...the more your target audience shrinks.



No money won, but still fun = lots of people play.



No money won and not fun = less people play.
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Post by Sebadiah23 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:25 pm

I've been playing challenge games for ten years (Cdm/ fanball in particular), and they have weekly change leagues and one bi-weekly change league. The bi-weekly change league, called the Internet challenge, is less popular and there is less debate over strategy on it's message board. A lot of owners feel it's a grind. NFBC could try this with an online championship or something, to put their foot in the water, but I don't think it would win anyone over.
We drove 22 miles, country around Farmington. Signs started appearing. THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED BARN IN AMERICA. Cars,tour bus,cameras;postcards sold.

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Post by Glenneration X » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:31 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

The more you "put the game into the hands of the players" by making the game too tedious to be competitive in (and thus enjoy)...the more your target audience shrinks.



No money won, but still fun = lots of people play.



No money won and not fun = less people play. Everyone gets that kick every Monday when setting a lineup and putting it out to do battle. It feels like a fresh start each and every week.



Now Monday night comes, Justin Morneau is out of the lineup and you read on a website the next morning that he's out for the year. Even though he won't play another game this season, you have to live with him for another 6 days because there's no reason for the Twins to put him on the disabled list due to September roster expansion.



Milton Bradley is out of the lineup Monday night. You read the next morning that he's suspended for the year. Even though he won't play another game this season, you have to live with him until the following Monday because the DL rule doesn't have a provision to allow you to switch him out.



Nolan Reimold gets injured early in the week. The O's actually announce on Wednesday that they will go against September SOP and will place him on the disabled list. You sigh in relief that you will actually get some stats from his position that weekend. For whatever reason, the O's decide to wait until 1AM Thursday to actually submit the DL paperwork to MLB missing the NFBC deadline by an hour. You now have to live with him until the following week.



Tell me how these examples happening to you wouldn't take the wind out of your sails?

Tell me how any of this would be considered MORE fun?

Tell me how any of this would be considered MORE fair?



Glenn



[ September 24, 2009, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

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Post by Sebadiah23 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:47 pm

When your player hits a homerun while mine strikes out, I could use the same logic and say it isn't fair. But I don't, because I can't control outcomes. I can only slant the likehood of success in my favor.



Fantasy games are fair. Everyone has an equal chance to win at the beginning. If you want to completely suck chance out the game, it's not a game anymore. Run 10 gazillion trials with a computer programmed to draft like you, bid like you, and make lineup decisions like you, and see if you come out on top. Have fun with that.
We drove 22 miles, country around Farmington. Signs started appearing. THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED BARN IN AMERICA. Cars,tour bus,cameras;postcards sold.

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Post by Glenneration X » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:54 pm

Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

When your player hits a homerun while mine strikes out, I could use the same logic and say it isn't fair. But I don't, because I can't control outcomes. I can only slant the likehood of success in my favor.



Fantasy games are fair. Everyone has an equal chance to win at the beginning. If you want to completely suck chance out the game, it's not a game anymore. Run 10 gazillion trials with a computer programmed to draft like you, bid like you, and make lineup decisions like you, and see if you come out on top. Have fun with that. At least in your scenerio, the player you put forth has the opportunity to hit a home run or strikeout. That is all the proponents of the Friday rule want to allow, the opportunity....



I do not see the corelation between this particular point of yours and what is being debated here.



Glenn

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Post by Gekko » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:54 pm

Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

When your player hits a homerun while mine strikes out, I could use the same logic and say it isn't fair. But I don't, because I can't control outcomes. I can only slant the likehood of success in my favor.



Fantasy games are fair. Everyone has an equal chance to win at the beginning. If you want to completely suck chance out the game, it's not a game anymore. Run 10 gazillion trials with a computer programmed to draft like you, bid like you, and make lineup decisions like you, and see if you come out on top. Have fun with that. again, why not go the other way and set lineups once a month?

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Post by Gekko » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:57 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

The more you "put the game into the hands of the players" by making the game too tedious to be competitive in (and thus enjoy)...the more your target audience shrinks.



No money won, but still fun = lots of people play.



No money won and not fun = less people play. The other side of the coin...The more people end up losing money because Morneau is stuck in their lineup all week after being ruled out for the year or M.Bradley being suspended for the year, the more those people lose interest in putting up $1300.

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Post by Sebadiah23 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:59 pm

I'm not the one asking for the rules to change, you are. If it ain't broke.
We drove 22 miles, country around Farmington. Signs started appearing. THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED BARN IN AMERICA. Cars,tour bus,cameras;postcards sold.

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Post by Navel Lint » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:59 pm

Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

Was there a poll I missed? Where did you get your stats from when you said "the few people"? Actually, there was a survey taken earlier in the year when many more people were on the boards discussing this issue. 60% of the voters wanted the current DL rule or NO Roster moves at all during the week. Only 95 people voted, but that is a large number compared to the number of people that actively participate on the message board.



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Post by Gekko » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:03 pm

Originally posted by Navel Lint:

Actually, there was a survey taken earlier in the year when many more people were on the boards discussing this issue. 60% of the voters wanted the current DL rule or NO Roster moves at all during the week. Only 95 people voted, but that is a large number compared to the number of people that actively participate on the message board.

a little misleading. the poll you referenced contained the following choices:



1. No Friday Moves; Just set your lineup on Monday and be done with it

2. Keep the current Friday DL rule

3. Allow one move per week for any player on Friday

4. Allow twice weekly moves for all players on Friday



IT DID NOT CONTAIN THE CHOICE BEING DISCUSSED "ALLOW FRIDAY MOVES FOR ALL HITTERS AND DL PITCHERS"

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Post by Sebadiah23 » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:06 pm

Thanks for the info Navel Lint.
We drove 22 miles, country around Farmington. Signs started appearing. THE MOST PHOTOGRAPHED BARN IN AMERICA. Cars,tour bus,cameras;postcards sold.

No one sees the barn,

They are taking pictures of taking pictures
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@Sebadiah23, IG:sebadiah26

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Post by Gekko » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:08 pm

For the record, I would NOT play in a league that had:

1. Daily moves

or

2. Set your lineup once a week (with no DL rule)

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Post by Navel Lint » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:15 pm

Originally posted by Gekko and The King:

quote:Originally posted by Navel Lint:

Actually, there was a survey taken earlier in the year when many more people were on the boards discussing this issue. 60% of the voters wanted the current DL rule or NO Roster moves at all during the week. Only 95 people voted, but that is a large number compared to the number of people that actively participate on the message board.

a little misleading. the poll you referenced contained the following choices:



1. No Friday Moves; Just set your lineup on Monday and be done with it

2. Keep the current Friday DL rule

3. Allow one move per week for any player on Friday

4. Allow twice weekly moves for all players on Friday



IT DID NOT CONTAIN THE CHOICE BEING DISCUSSED "ALLOW FRIDAY MOVES FOR ALL HITTERS AND DL PITCHERS"
[/QUOTE]First, I didn’t write the poll, I’m just referencing it.



Second, the topic of the DL rule had been talked about for days thru several threads before Greg posted the survey. I don’t really want to go back and read all the pages, but if my memory is correct ( and if it’s not you’ll let me know ;) )he chose those four possible answers because they were the most viable and seemed to be the ones that most people wanted.
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Post by Glenneration X » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:16 pm

Originally posted by Sebadiah23:

I'm not the one asking for the rules to change, you are. If it ain't broke. Sorry, but this part of the contest is broke.

What this debate is about is how best to fix it.



Glenn

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