Mock Draft Feedback

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:05 pm

Let me explain a few things regarding the Indians and my bias:

1. I understand why you call me bias based on my statements, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. If a Red Sox fan said he thought the Red Sox were going to win the World Series, would you say he is being biased? Or a Yankee fan saying AROD is the best player in baseball? Probably not. I said the Tribe would be one of the best teams in baseball last season and I was right.. they were the 2nd best team. Anyone who doesn't think they would have rolled the Rockies is flat out wrong. They were ONE GAME away.. 3-1 lead on the Red Sox blown. That wasn't due to their lack of talent, that was due to their inexperience.

2. I said CC Sabathia would be a top 3 SP and I was right. People laughed at me when I picked him over Hamels, Harden, Felix, Harang, and Kazmir. But remind me, who was the best fantasy SP last year after Peavy and Santana? From 2004-2007 he has gotten better every year. It was no fluke how well he did last season. In 2006 I watched him FINALLY control his emotions and temper better. It made him that much more effective in 2007. You think in a contract year he is going to regress? I think not.

3. Grady Sizemore, Victor Martinez, Travis Hafner, Ryan Garko, Jhonny Peralta.. with young guys like Cabrera and Gutierrez.. what's not to like about this lineup?? Blake is underrated. Marte could still develop. Dellucci? Ehhh... Plus I'm not convinced we're done with the OF this offseason. Even if you think we have some holes, this lineup is still very very solid with lots of room for growth from last season. One thing about me being an Indians fan is I watch every game. Believe me when I say Hafner is TOO GOOD to not revert back to his 2005-2006 self. He was better than Ortiz (although you will say otherwise based on stats since Hafner was injured both years and when he came back wasn't as effective). Pitchers had to pitch around him because they couldn't beat him.

4. Sabathia and Carmona: 2 CY Young candidates (one winner). Westbrook: solid #3 starter. Laffey, Sowers: solid young pitchers who showed too much in the minors (and boy did Sowers look much better after being sent down) to not be at least good 4-5 starters. I do not like Lee or Byrd at all. Adam Miller will be at least a #2 once he is up for good. I love this rotation.

4. You can look at the way I draft and clearly see I am not biased. I drafted ONE Indian in 2007. I'm not one of those guys who drafts like Asdrubal Cabrera in the 7th round. Come on. We'll just wait and see how this season plays out and I will either eat crow or maybe make some believers out of some of you (more likely I think). But don't write off anything I say about Tribe players just because I'm a fan, Crazy. That's like someone writing off everything you say because you don't play the main event. I certainly don't take that into consideration.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:45 pm

so crazy- you are the manager of the indians. the team you have is the one they have now. your closer is? mine is betancourt. yours is borow. bet. or who? just asking. dave- i like your passion. go tribe!

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:59 pm

headhunters: don't get me wrong, I do not like Borowski in the slightest. When Foulke retired, I wept. That said, I keep him as closer until he starts blowing games. Betancourt has not proven he can handle closing games. Doesn't mean he CAN'T, but I wouldn't count on it. I think he stays in his setup role... maybe Kobayashi has an outside shot at closing.. with his experience he may be the best candidate. I simply believe in the closer mentality.. I have seen far too many "great relief pitchers" tank in the 9th not to. I also wouldn't be opposed to a trade for say Fuentes or Dotel. One can never have enough bullpen arms.

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:20 pm

dave- agree. i'd say borowski lasts a month tops. worse move of offseason= linebrink. no more petco or nl west or central. here come the tigers, indians, yanks, red sox, etc. etc. yikes

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:38 pm

Originally posted by Less than Dave:

Let me explain a few things regarding the Indians and my bias:

1. I understand why you call me bias based on my statements, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. If a Red Sox fan said he thought the Red Sox were going to win the World Series, would you say he is being biased? Or a Yankee fan saying AROD is the best player in baseball? Probably not. I said the Tribe would be one of the best teams in baseball last season and I was right.. they were the 2nd best team. Anyone who doesn't think they would have rolled the Rockies is flat out wrong. They were ONE GAME away.. 3-1 lead on the Red Sox blown. That wasn't due to their lack of talent, that was due to their inexperience.

2. I said CC Sabathia would be a top 3 SP and I was right. People laughed at me when I picked him over Hamels, Harden, Felix, Harang, and Kazmir. But remind me, who was the best fantasy SP last year after Peavy and Santana? From 2004-2007 he has gotten better every year. It was no fluke how well he did last season. In 2006 I watched him FINALLY control his emotions and temper better. It made him that much more effective in 2007. You think in a contract year he is going to regress? I think not.

3. Grady Sizemore, Victor Martinez, Travis Hafner, Ryan Garko, Jhonny Peralta.. with young guys like Cabrera and Gutierrez.. what's not to like about this lineup?? Blake is underrated. Marte could still develop. Dellucci? Ehhh... Plus I'm not convinced we're done with the OF this offseason. Even if you think we have some holes, this lineup is still very very solid with lots of room for growth from last season. One thing about me being an Indians fan is I watch every game. Believe me when I say Hafner is TOO GOOD to not revert back to his 2005-2006 self. He was better than Ortiz (although you will say otherwise based on stats since Hafner was injured both years and when he came back wasn't as effective). Pitchers had to pitch around him because they couldn't beat him.

4. Sabathia and Carmona: 2 CY Young candidates (one winner). Westbrook: solid #3 starter. Laffey, Sowers: solid young pitchers who showed too much in the minors (and boy did Sowers look much better after being sent down) to not be at least good 4-5 starters. I do not like Lee or Byrd at all. Adam Miller will be at least a #2 once he is up for good. I love this rotation.

4. You can look at the way I draft and clearly see I am not biased. I drafted ONE Indian in 2007. I'm not one of those guys who drafts like Asdrubal Cabrera in the 7th round. Come on. We'll just wait and see how this season plays out and I will either eat crow or maybe make some believers out of some of you (more likely I think). But don't write off anything I say about Tribe players just because I'm a fan, Crazy. That's like someone writing off everything you say because you don't play the main event. I certainly don't take that into consideration. Point taken. I like the very last part especially.

Side note: I'm a Dodgers fan, I wish I could talk up my team as well. They make the silliest, most brainless moves and it's hard to deal with.

Overall, I've always been a baseball fan first, team fan 2nd. It doesn't make me better than anybody, just different I think. I think the fact you watch the Indians so much absolutely gives you an inside edge on them. Sorry I mistook you for an Indians fanatic with tunnel vision. I meet so many people that only know their own team and don't have a clue about the rest of baseball, so I mistook you for one of those.

Good luck on your fantasy season.

As far as you picking Holliday last year in the 2nd, incredible pick. I had the 18th pick and was high on Holliday as well, patiently waiting for him to come down to me. He went #16. I thought fine, I'll just get V-lad. Bam, he went #17. Picked D-Lee with #18. Ended up 1/2 point from the guy who picked Holliday at #16, and 2 points out from 1st.

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:42 am

No problem, Crazy... just wanted you to see my perspective on it. I do feel like I have an inside track on the Tribe... I felt that way with CC going into last year and feel that way about him again this year.. only more so due to the contract year and the fact he has gotten better every year. I am definitely a team fan first and baseball fan second. I'd rather see Borowski get the save and the Tribe get a win even if my competition has him in fantasy and I don't. Now, if this costs me $80,000.. then maybe I'd have to reconsider

...I have no idea why people didn't think as highly of Holliday last season as I did (I still can't believe someone drafted Jeter ahead of him).. all the signs were there. I think people get caught up too much in ADP and don't look ahead enough... would you be able to draft Braun 5th overall IF you thought he was the 5th best player available? Or would you take Pujols because his ADP is higher and he was the consensus #1 pick the last few years? People need to train themselves to think independent of what they see other people doing and take the best guy at that spot unless you think with relative certainty that he will be there next round when you pick.

And sorry to hear you got screwed there, but I probably woulda taken Grady, Rollins, Hanley, or Teix in that spot over Lee (depending on who was available)... not a big Derek Lee fan

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:05 am

I would be concerned if I were a Cleveland fan. Last year was probably their shot before they fade back into the pack.

The Indians have some obvious needs, one corner outfielder and maybe two if Gutierrez doesen't pan out. Blake is Brandon Inge in disguise and the staff after Sabathia and Carmona are question marks.

The biggest concern is what they have done during the off season. The acquisition of Jamey Carroll and Kobayashi probably did not even turn Less Than Dave's head. Complacency. Even While the Tigers are building a beast of a lineup. Regression is a good bet.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:20 am

However, Management has been very progressive in getting their field renamed.

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:50 am

Cleveland should sign the bugs that so successfully "got to" Joba and the rest of the NYY's. They were the best infield defense I've seen in a long time.

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:40 pm

Originally posted by Less than Dave:

No problem, Crazy... just wanted you to see my perspective on it. I do feel like I have an inside track on the Tribe... I felt that way with CC going into last year and feel that way about him again this year.. only more so due to the contract year and the fact he has gotten better every year. I am definitely a team fan first and baseball fan second. I'd rather see Borowski get the save and the Tribe get a win even if my competition has him in fantasy and I don't. Now, if this costs me $80,000.. then maybe I'd have to reconsider

...I have no idea why people didn't think as highly of Holliday last season as I did (I still can't believe someone drafted Jeter ahead of him).. all the signs were there. I think people get caught up too much in ADP and don't look ahead enough... would you be able to draft Braun 5th overall IF you thought he was the 5th best player available? Or would you take Pujols because his ADP is higher and he was the consensus #1 pick the last few years? People need to train themselves to think independent of what they see other people doing and take the best guy at that spot unless you think with relative certainty that he will be there next round when you pick.

And sorry to hear you got screwed there, but I probably woulda taken Grady, Rollins, Hanley, or Teix in that spot over Lee (depending on who was available)... not a big Derek Lee fan LOL, I was one of those guys that took Jeter before Holliday as well. Jeter, D-Lee with my first 2 picks. Please don't laugh. I had to spend every waking second last year making up for it. Just horrible picks.

I made V-Mart my 3rd pick which many people questioned, Peavy in 4, Putz in 5th, Hamels in 8th, Upton in 16th and Hamilton in 23rd.

Honestly, for me, that draft was brutal. This year will be different. I think the trick to this year's draft is mostly about strategy (like you said) take player's where you want them, not where you think they'll go based on mags/forum.

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:24 pm

aye-yi-yi... are you going to cry some more for the poor poor Yankees?? We beat them fair and square. What a load of crap. They are so overrated, it's unreal. All that money and they are crap. wah wah the bugs wah wah.. boy, Carmona sure didn't seem to mind as he MOWED THOSE YANKS DOWN. It's like 2 teams in football playing in the snow.. ya, the conditions suck, but it sucks for both teams. Grow up.

Secondly, I hope the renaming of the field allows the Tribe to get more revenue to get another player or 2. Look, I have incredible faith in Shapiro.. he built this team when Hart left it in shambles. He has done wonders. He traded for Hafner and Grady for example.. meanwhile the farm system keeps churning out more studs. Blake is far better than Brandon Inge.. who is a better 9th hitter?? Maybe a few, not many. Was I thrilled with the acquisition of Jamey Carroll? Of course not. But the Tribe looked into a few trades and felt there wasn't good value there, I trust Shapiro. And I believe Gutierrez will be a good player based on watching him develop and watching him play. Kid has a cannon too. LF is a concern and 3B is as well, but I want to see what Marte can do this year. Kobayashi should be solid. Indians win the Central again. I'd bet on it.

How can you say anything against a rotation that features 2 CY Young candidates?? Westbrook is solid. Sowers had a great rookie campaign and looked to regain his control in the minors last season... and Laffey looked fine too. I admit Lee and Byrd are crap. Then we have Adam Miller.. he has to be up sometime this year.. he will be a stud. Keep the hates comin people...

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:14 am

Less than Davesounds like your a big Indians fan.

What do you think about the 2nd base job, does Asdrubal Cabrera own that job.He stole 23 bases last year between the minors and majors and hit for good bavg and 75 rbi's.But i really like the 108 runs scored.Will he bat 2nd in that lineup, hope so just drafted him in my last draft late.

About the Indians staff , after the big two i think they have promblems.Westbrook i wouldnt call solid but maybe serviceable , i would also put Byrd in the same tier.Sowers just blows, he couldnt get a fastball by a little leaguer.

To be honest im not sure about Laffey but he was in the rotation in september.They really could use a third starter but we'll see , last year Carmona came out of nowhere.Who's their best pitching prospect and how close is he.But with that lineup and hopefully the real Hafner they will be there.

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:37 am

Indians were the 2nd best team in baseball in 2007, behind the RED SOX. I just wonder when the innings will catch up to CC. It looked like they did against the Sox in the ALCS. It's strange when a great command pitcher loses it like he does. Looked like the innings caught up to him. Carmona was just rattled and I don't think his melt-down had to do with innings. The Indians will be solid in 2008. It all comes down the the back-end of their rotation. We'll see! Good luck

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:18 am

I lived and died with the Giants growing up. Willie Mays was and is the greatest player that ever played the game. I was devastated when the Giants traded him to the Mets instead of just letting him retire a Giant. I realized right then that I'd never put my heart into another pro franchise again.

When looking at it with no bias, its humorous talking to fans that back their team so arduously. I forget which comedian it was, but he joked that as a fan you're not rooting for your player, you're rooting for a uniform. And it is true.

I apologize to you LessThanDave. I like messing with dyed in the wool fans, pointing out shortcomings in a team and seeing the reaction and I probably did come off as an Indian hater, which I'm not.

Take solace in the fact that I'm not Mark Shapiro. I think that Cleveland is one of the few places that is a fit for Juan Pierre. Cleveland has never minded less than average left fielders and Sizemore would blossom as a third hitter and make the lineup more dynamic. Right handers would have a tough task going through the Sizemore, Martinez, Hafner gauntlet.

This all being said, I do see some regression. The other teams in the league have improved themselves while Cleveland has stood pat. It should be a great battle in the A.L. central this year though, and Cleveland will surely be a part of it.

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:27 am

Yes, they were 2nd best next to the Red Sox.. congratulations, I wish we had a payroll 8 times the size of the Nationals. They were only BARELY better, due to experience and sucking in games 5-7. If Hafner didn't lose his ability to hit and Sabathia and Carmona didn't suck in the ALCS, Indians win easy. They were up 3-1 even with those hindrances.

I agree, the innings probably caught up to CC (40 more than Beckett).. dunno what happened to Carmona though because he was electric vs the Yanks.

I'm telling you though, with all the starters they have, there's no way the rotation won't be good. CC and Carmona is one of if not the best 1-2 punch in baseball, I still like Westbrook, then for 2 spots you have Cliff Lee (big question mark.. I dont like him), Paul Byrd (crap), Aaron Laffey (pretty good start in the majors), and Jeremy Sowers (who dominated in AAA after a few starts down there). Realistically, only one will probably stay in the majors because they are just placeholders for Adam Miller.

Eddie: you don't know about Adam Miller? I suggest you familiarize yourself because he should come up and be solid/spectacular right away. He was great in ST last year and almost came up when Lee got injured, but Carmona got the first call and well, he ran with it. We also have Chuck Lofgren, David Huff, and Scott Lewis.. but they probably won't see the rotation until 2009 at least.

Asdrubal Cabrera: as of right now they have him batting 2nd... that would be a very nice place for him to rack up some runs. I love his defense. For a 21 year old (he's so young!) I think he was fantastic offensively as well. The kid can steal and score lots of runs while hitting for a pretty good average I'd say. If he doesn't work out, we still have Barfield, who I haven't given up on.

3B and OF: Blake and Marte will probably both see time at 3B. By next year you will probably see Beau Mills or Wes Hodges starting there though. Gutierrez should hold down RF... I really think he showed a lot and has a lot of potential and I don't want to take any PT away from him. LF is a different story. I think we need to trade for someone to play there.. worst case scenario resign Lofton and give Francisco some ABs there too.

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:34 am

I realize how I come off regarding the Indians, but I still stand by what I say.. I know no one will ever see it as "unbiased" but that doesn't necessarily make me wrong. I do think we need one more impact player to keep up with the other teams who are improving around us, but at the same time if Hafner hits the way he should and the young players keep developing, I think this team can be even better than last year.

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:40 am

But I also disagree with the your assessment of how I view our players. I do back my team arduously, but I don't draft Indians just to draft them. Yes, it's convenient because then there are never conflicts between who I am rooting for in fantasy and who I am rooting for in real life.. but I don't let my emotions take control. I drafted one Indian last year and in other drafts I averaged about the same. I see the players as they really are, not just who they could be or thinking wishfully. I just tend to pump up the upside more than non-fans.

eddiejag · Post by **eddiejag** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:19 am

I HOPE YOUR right on Hafner picked him up the 60th player off the board in the Childs draft.

All great players in this draft but 60, i saw one draft he went 44 and i thought that was late.

Ive had Hafner on my teams since he was traded to the Indians.In my four years of doing the auction leagues i was able to get him three times . If he bounces back [like he should] he will be a great bargain.Hell even in his bad year he drove home a 100 runs.If he crushes in the spring he will move to the 3rd round and if he doesnt have a good spring he will be an even better bargain. just opinions.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:21 am

Originally posted by eddiejag:

I HOPE YOUR right on Hafner picked him up the 60th player off the board in the Childs draft.

All great players in this draft but 60, i saw one draft he went 44 and i thought that was late.

Ive had Hafner on my teams since he was traded to the Indians.In my four years of doing the auction leagues i was able to get him three times . If he bounces back [like he should] he will be a great bargain.Hell even in his bad year he drove home a 100 runs.If he crushes in the spring he will move to the 3rd round and if he doesnt have a good spring he will be an even better bargain. just opinions. You will have to work for him this year in the AL auction. Do I hear $27?

Captain Hook · Post by **Captain Hook** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:22 am

looks like we have enough here right now for a pretty nice draft....just saying

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:24 am

Originally posted by Less than Dave:

Yes, they were 2nd best next to the Red Sox.. congratulations, I wish we had a payroll 8 times the size of the Nationals. They were only BARELY better, due to experience and sucking in games 5-7. If Hafner didn't lose his ability to hit and Sabathia and Carmona didn't suck in the ALCS, Indians win easy. They were up 3-1 even with those hindrances.

I agree, the innings probably caught up to CC (40 more than Beckett).. dunno what happened to Carmona though because he was electric vs the Yanks.

I'm telling you though, with all the starters they have, there's no way the rotation won't be good. CC and Carmona is one of if not the best 1-2 punch in baseball, I still like Westbrook, then for 2 spots you have Cliff Lee (big question mark.. I dont like him), Paul Byrd (crap), Aaron Laffey (pretty good start in the majors), and Jeremy Sowers (who dominated in AAA after a few starts down there). Realistically, only one will probably stay in the majors because they are just placeholders for Adam Miller.

Eddie: you don't know about Adam Miller? I suggest you familiarize yourself because he should come up and be solid/spectacular right away. He was great in ST last year and almost came up when Lee got injured, but Carmona got the first call and well, he ran with it. We also have Chuck Lofgren, David Huff, and Scott Lewis.. but they probably won't see the rotation until 2009 at least.

Asdrubal Cabrera: as of right now they have him batting 2nd... that would be a very nice place for him to rack up some runs. I love his defense. For a 21 year old (he's so young!) I think he was fantastic offensively as well. The kid can steal and score lots of runs while hitting for a pretty good average I'd say. If he doesn't work out, we still have Barfield, who I haven't given up on.

3B and OF: Blake and Marte will probably both see time at 3B. By next year you will probably see Beau Mills or Wes Hodges starting there though. Gutierrez should hold down RF... I really think he showed a lot and has a lot of potential and I don't want to take any PT away from him. LF is a different story. I think we need to trade for someone to play there.. worst case scenario resign Lofton and give Francisco some ABs there too. Wow 8 times the payroll of the Nationals!!! I never knew the World Champion Red Sox had a 296 million dollar payroll!!!!

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:45 am

Yeah, that was an exaggeration, but barely.

2007 Red Sox salary: $ 143,026,214

2007 Nationals salary: $ 37,347,500

3.8 TIMES as much money.

Let's look at some other teams for comparison:

2007 Cleveland Indians: $ 61,673,267 (2.3 times less than Red Sox)

2007 Tampa Bay Rays: $ 24,123,500 (almost 6 times less than Red Sox!!)

So.. your Red Sox, who have almost 2.5 times more money to throw at players than the Tribe (and 6 times more than the Rays), BARELY beat my Indians in the playoffs.. that's a joke. The Red Sox and Yanks have no excuse for NOT winning the world series every year.. every year they don't it's a failure. Other teams actually have to manage their farm system and make good trades and acquisitions, they can't just throw tons of money at free agents every year. Red Sox nation indeed. Where was this nation before they won the World Series a few years ago?

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:48 am

Where's your nation going to be when Schilling and Manny retire in a year or 2, Beckett gets another hangnail, and JD Drew has a season-ending headache?

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:53 am

Originally posted by Less than Dave:

Eddie: you don't know about Adam Miller? I suggest you familiarize yourself because he should come up and be solid/spectacular right away. He was great in ST last year and almost came up when Lee got injured just an fyi that miller got hurt last year and got smoked. judging by his winter performance, he's still getting smoked. sorry but this cat won't have any value for a while

Less than Dave · Post by **Less than Dave** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:44 am

I know, but I disagree. He's healthy and will be just fine this season.