Fine-tuning The Friday DL Rule

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:55 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Scott Boras:

KJ, After reading Greg's post my interpretation was blatantly clear that this rule clarification was specifically aimed at pitching changes for pitchers coming OFF the dl.

"Going forward, we will manually reverse any move involving a pitcher coming off the DL during the week if this happens again. And we know it will happen again as John Lackey and Ervin Santana are two good examples of guys who will pitch in the minors over the next couple of weeks and likely make a mid-week start. If you start the week with them in your starting rotation anticipating their start, then don't expect to replace them and get a second start by another pitcher. We will cancel that move out and those pitchers will remain in your active roster, as they should."

I don't think that Greg or STATS is going to reverse any DL moves you make with positional players ie your Doumit example. This clarification was made to close loopholes, NOT hinder actual injury replacements. I support this rule clarification and feel it supports the integrity of the event. OK Boras, same can apply to pitchers? Here are two scenarios off the top of my head.

#1 Pitcher goes on the DL Sunday night or Monday morning, I miss it, and would now be prohibited from replacing said pitcher for Friday night.

#2 Pitcher is on the DL but the expectation is that he'll come off the DL during the week and pitch. He has a setback on Tuesday and thus no longer is expected to pitch this week - and now I cannot replace him for the weekend.

Those are two non-loophole situations in which I no longer can "legitimately" use the DL rule even though the NFBC official rules to begin the season explicitly state than I can. Once again, I have a major problem with that.

How many of you anti-loopholers have thought thru these issues? [/QUOTE]We are interpreting this clarification very differently. I cannot speak for the moustached one, but I read this as:

1) Any pitcher who is on the DL and does NOT come off the dl and pitch that week can be switched out on Friday. This rule was not modified to stop playing matchups (avoid the start in colorado and replace the DLed pitcher for the second start in washington), but to prohibit people switching out pitchers no longer on the dl to maximize starts.

2) Same with #1, if a pitcher has a setback and doesn't come off the DL, I believe he will be allowed to be switched out on Friday.

There is no loophole issue with either scenario you have laid out and I do not believe Greg intends to interfere with either of these types of situations.

What Greg is trying to end is those who started Scott Baker the week he came off the DL (pitched on a tuesday or wednesday) and went ahead and set their FRIDAY lineup with a different pitcher BEFORE baker came off the dl and started. These owners knew Baker would no longer be on the DL and were exploiting the intention of the DL rule by getting the Baker start AND an extra start from another pitcher.

Does that make sense?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:21 pm

It makes sense, but it would require a manual review of every DL switch for 1300+ teams over 23 weeks (~30,000 team weeks).

Alternatively, my understanding was implicitly that he was working with STATS to disallow existing DL players to be benched for the weekend.

If his intention is the former, I still don't like the rule change for other reasons I've stated, it's wouldn't be as objectionable assuming they catch every illegal move in every league. That won't be easy to do and unless someone in that league notices it, which is unlikely, some moves will slip thru the cracks anyway with this many lges. And that is far more unfair than what we have now.

If his intention is the latter, to have STATS control those moves, they can't do it without also disallowing the legit moves I outlined above.

[ April 21, 2009, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:31 pm

Your scenario #1 falls under the "I missed it due to my own lack of effort" category.

Your scenario #2 falls under "I gambled that the player would come off the DL and lost" category.

I'm giving you some **** , KJ

...but DAMN you are a one man army for such a bullshit rule that has been exploited FAR more than used as it was intended.

Scott Boras · Post by **Scott Boras** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:37 pm

concerns understood and noted. as i said, i can't speak for greg on how he plans to tackle this. i understand why he feels it needs to be addressed and trust that it won't hinder me from benching any of my dl players on friday. should he run into problems tracking all of those leagues, i suspect it could be the end of the dl rule in future years. that said, we gotta give him a chance and the benefit of the doubt, don't we?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:45 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Your scenario #1 falls under the "I missed it due to my own lack of effort" category.

Your scenario #2 falls under "I gambled that the player would come off the DL and lost" category.

I'm giving you some **** , KJ

...but DAMN you are a one man army for such a bullshit rule that has been exploited FAR more than used as it was intended. I bet I've "loop-holed" it more than most, and that been probably 4-5 times over about 800 team weeks. That is about a 0.5% incident ratio. Not worthy of setting a precedent of an in-season rule change.

To me, making the change in-season is bullshit, as is potentially disallowing "proper" use of the rule. And I don't go quietly when I see bullshit.

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:05 pm

KJ, I see your point. My vote would be to dump the Friday DL rule. It's never been fair. If your player is out but the team waits to put him on the DL you lose out. All the rule really did was add another factor of luck. Now another piece of luck has been added. Two wrongs don't make a right.

JamesH · Post by **JamesH** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:30 pm

This seems like a software problem to me. If on Tuesday, I replace a DL'd player (Scott Baker) for Friday, and the DL'd player is activated on Wednesday, the software should recognize he is no longer on the DL when the substitutions are processed on Friday. Evidently, the software processes the move immediately and that is where the problem lies. Fix the software and this loophole will go away without harming the other loopholes KJ holds so dear to his heart.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:40 pm

Get rid of the whole mess and just allow one friday move each week. That allows us an injury move whether its official or not when we have one, and a little extra strategy for that week when we don't have one.

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:17 pm

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Jules, I think what makes it fair is that its equal opportunity for all. That said, there is enough disagreement on the topic, and with the increased maintenance on G/T, a change to simplify could be in order for next season.

What if every team had the opportunity to make one change per week, for ANY reason? It could be used for an injured player, a 2-start pitcher that you don't want in for both starts, a guy that tweaks something, a player that gets called up or sent down to the minors mid-week, etc.

This would give everyone a little bit of roster flexibility, and no one would have to worry about deadlines for an injured player. Giving each owner one change per week would add a whole lot of strategy to this game. I love it.

No more losing out because of players getting injured at the start of weeks. Rewards teams who have better benches and increases the value of multiple position eligibile players. There are a bunch of strategies to use here. Some teams play 6 games a week, you can use it to maximize your at-bats or maximize your starts depending on what your team needs, or just keep a pitcher out of a bad matchup. Adds a whole new dimension and rewards skillful managing.

I love this idea.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:33 pm

What if 4 of your players land on the DL?

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:41 pm

Warning...buzzed!

What if no changes were allowed each week?

An early week injury would suck...a late week injury would suck a bit less...a season ending injury would really suck!

Nice and simple.

The more folks think they are genius and can hustle their way to the money with rule manipulation...the more this game stinks.

Take your lumps and do your best.

23 rostered starters.

26 weeks.

Try playing fantasy FOOTBALL...you baseball cry babies couldn't handle that sport.

Less than half the weeks and less than half the starters...yet it runs circles around fantasy baseball in popularity...I wonder why that is? Too many small minority players trying to manipulate the rules to their favor?

Naaa.

~Lance

(I edited this down like crazy in an effort to be nice)

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:49 pm

Sorry...couldn't find the thread...but WOW!!!

Uncle Dan strikes again!

Jared Washburn 2009 = Cliff Lee 2008! (to a degree)

I smell some nice bids now that he faced and "decent" team and K'd 9!!!

~Lance

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:57 pm

Good Job Lance! Uncle Greg Still loves ya. Don't

worry. Fantasy Baseball players know there is some luck involved but also know there is a good amount of skill. Fantasy Football players love football know there's alot of luck and would rather do 12 team drafts just because of that.

Facts. Just the Facts.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:34 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

What if 4 of your players land on the DL? Over 6 years of the NFBC, probably 50-60 teams, times 26 weeks, this hasn't happened to me yet. Odds > 1500:1 and counting. I'll let you know if it ever happens.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:39 pm

Sorry Lance, I like strategy. DC lges are great for the early pre-season, but I'd rather manage my primary teams.

A real baseball manager probably makes 100 moves a week with pinchhitters, pinchrunners, platoon players, lineup shuffles, the bullpen ... I'm asking for one move. One.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:04 pm

...even without injury???

You want a free move now???

Can you explain this new slant on the argument?

Crazy Like a Fox · Post by **Crazy Like a Fox** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:23 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

...even without injury???

You want a free move now???

Can you explain this new slant on the argument? I know you're not directly asking me, but I really like the "free move" per week. Instead of just throwing your players out there, you have more flexibility with your team. It avoids the whole "bad luck" scenario with players getting hurt at the start of the week. It adds strategy (which in a 5x5 format with only once per week managing) desperately needs. Not just a little strategy, it adds a lot, it really does.

I've been trying to think of something for awhile that can allow more skill to come into play while managing a team in the 15 team league structure (I was thinking more of making it into a 6x6) but KJ Duke beat me to the punch. One free move per week. Sounds like such a simple rule, but will add a lot more fun to running your team, reward the skilled managers. It could add a whole new to dimension to the NFBC.

Recap:

1. More strategy.

2. Less injured days off affecting overall at-bats and innings pitched.

3. Rewards teams with better benches.

4. Allows you to maximize at-bats or innings pitched based on team needs.

5. Allows more flexibility and control in running your team.

6. More value placed on multi-position eligible players.

7. Once again, more strategy making it more fun to run your team as well as adding a whole new dimension to running your team.

It would be interesting to see what Greg thinks. There has to be an evolution of fantasy baseball at some point and we might as well be at the forefront.

It would be interesting to have a "test" league next year and see how much people like the one move per week. I think people will overwhelmingly love it. More skill, less luck = better structure IMHO.

Quack & Willy · Post by **Quack & Willy** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:58 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Sorry...couldn't find the thread...but WOW!!!

Uncle Dan strikes again!

Jared Washburn 2009 = Cliff Lee 2008! (to a degree)

I smell some nice bids now that he faced and "decent" team and K'd 9!!!

~Lance or you could have gotten him this week at a reduced price ahead of this gem

GOD Loves You · Post by **GOD Loves You** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:05 am

WOW, lil late to the party. I wholeheartedly agree with KJ....you cannot change a rule 3 weeks into the season.....REGARDLESS of the so-called ramifications, especially when they have been known for years. I remember quite a few times people speaking of the loophole and how others were taking advantage, so why is the rule change taking place now, during the season?? Seriously, it's been talked about on more than one occasion. I'm shocked to see it discussed as if it's something new.

I've never "taken advantage" of the loophole, but know you cannot change the rules after the season started. And to be honest, how many times during the season are people really manipulating the system?? People in favor of the change act as if it's occurring in every league, every week. I'm guessing the amount of times it's done during a season is so small, it doesn't warrant the sudden change.....make it AFTER the season. Man, sorry Greg, but I've had arguments with people in other leagues and thought they were a joke for wanting to change the settings/rules after the season, I never thought I would see it done here.....again, especially when the loophole has been known.

I agree it's not in the spirit of the rule or game, but again, we signed up to play under certain rules and to change anything during the season is wrong.....and for some reason, people seem to have skipped over Dan's thought. Why not simply allow us to make a lineup submission on both Monday and Friday?? This would put an end to this whole discussion and add even more strategy to this game. Like KJ said, the new change could lead to more problems......probably greater than the small amount manipulating the system.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:22 am

Wow, good thing I was at a youth band concert last night and didn't have to read KJ calling out my "bullshit" decision. Nice KJ. Nice.

We are not disallowing anyone like Ryan Doumit going on the DL during the week just because you had him in your starting lineup on Monday. You've extended your argument past reality sir. The rule exists as intended and anyone who goes on the DL after starting lineups are set on Monday could be replaced. In fact, I've asked STATS to allow all DL HITTERS who are still in your starting lineup on Monday to be replaced. We certainly have found in the past that this rule is used almost as much for owners who forgot to replace a DL hitter out of their starting lineup on Monday and at least remember to make the change on Friday as for those who actually suffer mid-week injuries. This will continue.

The loophole being closed is allowing a DL pitcher to be in your starting lineup on Monday for strategic reasons. If you start a DL pitcher on Monday you are doing it for two reasons: 1) Because you think that pitcher is going to come off the DL that week and help your team; or 2) To manipulate the DL rule. And you can do that in two ways: 1) Get a second start out of that position because our programming only stopped that once he officially came off the DL; or 2) You took the five extra days to determine which pitcher to start on the weekend.

So now I'm still allowing you to start every DL pitcher you want each week and you get to keep him in your starting lineup each week. If any pitcher goes on the DL after Monday, you can still replace him with a reserve pitcher by Friday. Just as the rule intended. And nothing changes for hitters.

KJ, this loophole has NOT been discussed every year since 2006. Trust me, I closed this as soon as I heard about this. I feel like a fool for not knowing that DL'd pitchers were giving folks an advantage. I'm surprised the programming wasn't smarter to disallow it, but now we're taking steps to rectify it.

I think we're all smart enough to understand that the Friday DL Rule is set up to help owners who have early week injuries. We heard enough complaints from folks who said for this price level, they wanted as much luck eliminated as humanly possible. I agreed and one area I hated was having a player who was day-to-day on Monday going on the DL on Tuesday. This rule allows you to at least get three days of production out of that spot and more importantly makes everyone work hard to keep a strong reserve roster that gives you good options on Fridays in case anything happens to your players.

The rest of the complaints here are designed to manipulate the rule. Good for those who exploited it. Now it's time for the rule to help the way it was intended and the way I think most folks have been using it.

I won't say any post here was B.S., but give me a few drinks this week in New York and I might tell you EXACTLY how I really feel about this thread.

Quack & Willy · Post by **Quack & Willy** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:44 am

well stated Greg. This one aspect should return the challenge to match of FAAB, lineup, and drafting skill; not manipulation.

Cheers!

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:32 am

Greg, you apparently skimmed over this post. Can you tell me what happens here?

#1 Pitcher goes on the DL Sunday night or Monday morning, I miss it, and would now be prohibited from replacing said pitcher for Friday night.

#2 Pitcher is on the DL to start the week (and in my lineup), but the expectation is that he'll come off the DL during the week and pitch. He has a setback on Tuesday and thus no longer is expected to pitch this week - and now I cannot replace him for the weekend.

These are two non-loophole situations in which I no longer can "legitimately" use the DL rule even though the NFBC official rules to begin the season explicitly state than I can. Once again, I have a major problem with that.

Richie · Post by **Richie** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:37 am

Good job Greg. You are the commissioner. You have the right to do what is needed. And your solution does not favor anyone over another.

Lets move on!!

This wasnt worth my time reading.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:41 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Greg, you apparently skimmed over this post. Can you tell me what happens here?

#1 Pitcher goes on the DL Sunday night or Monday morning, I miss it, and would now be prohibited from replacing said pitcher for Friday night.

#2 Pitcher is on the DL to start the week (and in my lineup), but the expectation is that he'll come off the DL during the week and pitch. He has a setback on Tuesday and thus no longer is expected to pitch this week - and now I cannot replace him for the weekend.

These are two non-loophole situations in which I no longer can "legitimately" use the DL rule even though the NFBC official rules to begin the season explicitly state than I can. Once again, I have a major problem with that. Good, e-mail me when this happens and I'll adjust your lineup for you. No different than when someone replaces a DL person on Wednesday and then on Friday morning tries to replace him with a different reserve player (but can't because he already reserved the DL'd player). We manually help owners with their lineups all the time. Everything you explained above is within the rules.

I'm trying to work with STATS to figure out how to best make the pitchers' situation work for all cases. It's probably not going to be perfect, but yes I'll help manually if needed. Making those adjustments takes seconds from our end and we'll do it if we're contacted in the right time and it isn't constant from the same owner.

Keep the scenarios coming KJ because you see me changing the rule and I see us programming the rule as intended.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:42 am

Originally posted by Richie:

Good job Greg. You are the commissioner. You have the right to do what is needed. And your solution does not favor anyone over another.

Lets move on!!

This wasnt worth my time reading. Hey Richie, if you don't care about the rules move along. I do. I want to know when I can and cannot move players from the DL.

The rules say one thing, Greg now says something else, and in my post above I have no idea if I can or I can't. Rules need to be clear, and they are suddenly vague. And for anyone that doesn't read the MB, a rule change was just implemented without their knowledge.