Bidding for draft Choice

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:53 am

Hi,

Since people seem to have widely different valudations on draft position - why not start off with a draft using FAAB $ to pick draft position? It could either be live before the draft starts or part of an applet that could be open for 2 weeks?

Therefore, the element of LUCK is completely removed!

Chris aka Spy

Cooperstown · Post by **Cooperstown** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:19 am

What about a "luck filled" draft to set the order and then you pick your draft position. A little luck and a little skill.

I wonder how many would pick 7th over 1st if they had the first pick?

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:58 am

We fought that fight last yr Spy to no avail. Bidding could scare some people off as too complicated, was the conclusion.

A simpler method, which I think could fly would be to pick randomly as we do now, but rather than have the #1 random pick get the #1 slot, give him first choice of slots, and so on. After the random selection give everyone 24 hours to enter their preference, if none is selected they are given the highest remaining spot. That would be a blast. (Just noticed, that is the essence of what Coop is suggesting too).

[ September 30, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:44 am

I don't get it - we expect people to draft 15 teams of 30 players so 450 players are taken by each league, and we have weekly auctions of free agents, but somehow we can't auction off 15 positions???? This is the big leagues of Fantasy Baseball, not some rinky dink local league.

Someone please explain this one to me!!!

I guess your idea is a good second best approach, but I still don't see why auction couldn't be done to start each league!!! It is very simple auction, 14 places and you are done. You don't even need to bring up players or anthing, just say postion #1 and going 1, 2, sold, position #2, .... ....

Spy

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:32 am

The change from a blind draw that determines draft position introduces additional elements of "Play" in several ways dependending on what that new method is. I like to "Play" so I'm all for changing to "Something???" with more owner action.

I like the idea of using FAAB money to bid on Draft Postion(lots of thinking, strategies, etc., especially on how much to allocate to the bid. Do you spend freely to get what you think is the "Prime" draft position giving an edge to other teams in FAAB auctions during the season?

The owner gets to decide whats things are worth.)

For the sake of continuity I would favor "Blind" bids, just like the existing weekly FAAB is done, including disclosure of the second highest bid. I'm not against an Auction but getting everyone on line to bid makes for more "Flies around the Ointment."

I particularly like the idea of the Highest bid getting to pick their position ( Winning bidder could take 10, 1, 7, whatever.) But again a live online presence (Though Short) would probably be required for the final determinations.

The other consideration concerns "Newbies." Would any of these changes hurt/help player recruitment? I see it as a great icebreaker at the "Live" draft. "Man!! how could you waste 777 of you FAAB dollars so you could pick 4th?? What's in the water on Cape Cod????" You'd have something to talk about on arrival and forever after.

Let's change to something. To What??, is the question.

If I was "The Commish" I would do it at the Live Auction using FAAB $$$ just prior to the start of the event in question. A 15 minute break to arrange the seating and then "Drop the Flag." Now that sounds like Fun.

For Auctions the $$$ Bid would come off your 260 player budget

Here's another tweak for doing it at the live event..Blind draw for who gets to bring up the initial postion to be Auctioned. Just File by the Auctioner and pick a number out of a hat to determine the order owners get to bring up a position. Number 1 could say "Position 12". Auction that off. Number 2 says "Position 3", then that goes to Auction, and so forth and so on until all spots are gone. MAN!! I LOVE this Game.

PLAY ON BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ October 02, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Kevin D ]

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:22 am

I think the biggest problem with this idea is that the majority of people in this league prefer to plan/strategize when knowing where there picks are in the draft, especially the early rounds. Having such an auction will scare a lot of people away from this competition because many dislike uncertainty, especially when doling out $1,250 for a game.

In addition, the more rules we put in place to distance the expert manager from the novice manager, will only be a detriment to the longevity of this competition (ie less repeat managers). It's one thing to get your arse whooped when you know you're a bright or top manager (in your own mind), but its another when you consider yourself a marginal or less serious manager. Unfortunately, we need the latter to keep coming back for this competition to thrive.

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:00 am

Good point NYDU-- Year to year retainment of participants. A factor I hadn't accounted for. A double edged sword. Some would like the changes, some wouldn't. "Newbies" might like it/ or not. No way to tell. So any changes should be well thought out for sure.

To make the NFBC more "Skill Dependant" would attact me. Taking the "Luck of the Draw" out of it and replacing it with decsion making by the players can only make the NFBC a truer test of whom the best Fantasy Baseball Players are.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:27 am

Originally posted by Kevin D:

Good point NYDU-- Year to year retainment of participants. A factor I hadn't accounted for. A double edged sword. Some would like the changes, some wouldn't. "Newbies" might like it/ or not. No way to tell. So any changes should be well thought out for sure.

To make the NFBC more "Skill Dependant" would attact me. Taking the "Luck of the Draw" out of it and replacing it with decsion making by the players can only make the NFBC a truer test of whom the best Fantasy Baseball Players are. Kevin, honestly I'd love to have a system other than random drawings as I hate picking the draft slots for everyone (actually Tom does it!). I understand the frustration of getting a pick you don't want, and of course it happens to me all the time as both Tom and I are in 6-7 leagues apiece each year. But random drawing is what most people are familiar with and likely the scenario we'll use for a few years yet.

But in the future, I'd love to fill up the event soon enough, randomly pick the leagues and create a system where owners have a say in their draft position. I honestly would. I'm not sure in baseball I'd use the FAAB money, though, as in-season FAAB is so important. But it would be an interesting option. Picking the draft order and then allowing the first person to select which draft spot he/she wants is more favorable to me.

But as the Wicked Witch of the West said in the Wizard of Oz, "all in good time my pretty, all in good time!" We'll see where the future takes us and if technology and early signups will allow us to do something other than random draft slotting in the near future.

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:21 am

Greg,

I actually like that idea: you guys select names out of the hat like you do to determine who from 1-15 gets to select their order (place in the draft). I think that's a good half compromise.

Another option is to allow managers to trade (swap) picks with another manager including a FAAB in the exchange. For example, I trade my #1 slot for another manager's #7 plus $50 FAAB. Just an idea.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:45 am

Originally posted by nydownunder:

Greg,

I actually like that idea: you guys select names out of the hat like you do to determine who from 1-15 gets to select their order (place in the draft). I think that's a good half compromise.If we could fill up the contest soon enough and set a date when we'd need everyone's draft preferences, I'd do it. I have a feeling we could set something up online and get everyone's preferences even before we picked the leagues. It would take some coordinating and an addition to our web site, but I honestly think we could do it. We'll see when we do it, if we do it.

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:22 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by nydownunder:

Greg,

I actually like that idea: you guys select names out of the hat like you do to determine who from 1-15 gets to select their order (place in the draft). I think that's a good half compromise.If we could fill up the contest soon enough and set a date when we'd need everyone's draft preferences, I'd do it. I have a feeling we could set something up online and get everyone's preferences even before we picked the leagues. It would take some coordinating and an addition to our web site, but I honestly think we could do it. We'll see when we do it, if we do it. [/QUOTE]Yes, if you had everyone's preferences prior, then a spreadsheet will easily spit out the results. A bit cumbersome, but like you said doable.

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:38 am

Apologies Greg, the online idea (STATS program) would be much better than a speadsheet.

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:38 pm

First of all, thanks Greg to looking into a solution to this....

I Truely believe that people would MUCH rather bid on their draft position. Personally, if I got the 14th or 15th draft position I would feel pissed and if I got it for 2 years in a row, I would probably quit NFBC. BUT if I made a concious choice to preserve FAAB $$ and others spent their FAAB to get a good spot, I would feel good about the 14th or 15th spot.

I guess I am confused as to what was wrong with the idea posted above around doing an open, 15 minute mini auction, then re-seating and drafting.

Players who feel they MUST know their spot in order to create a good draft strategy (are there people really this weak out there???), are taken care of in this approach because they can simply BID for it.

FAAB $ are the perfect way to to price the order because it imposes a 'cost' the rest of the season. If you want to pick your draft spot, you can, if you want to save $$$ and don't care, you can. It gives everyone a say in how they do.

BTW: The Auction drafts with the $260 caps do not need to do this - by definition, anyone can bid what they want in an Auction league so order doesn't need to be bid upon, IMHO

Spy

[ October 03, 2005, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Spyhunter ]

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:52 pm

Originally posted by Spyhunter:

Players who feel they MUST know their spot in order to create a good draft strategy (are there people really this weak out there???), are taken care of in this approach because they can simply BID for it.

BTW: The Auction drafts with the $260 caps do not need to do this - by definition, anyone can bid what they want in an Auction league so order doesn't need to be bid upon, IMHO

Spy Spy, hate to tell you but you are in the minority on the first point above. Did you see how many people, on the message boards, were clamoring to know what position they were in the draft?

And I am glad you mentioned the second point above, if you want the bidding model then you've always got the auction leagues.

Stop being selfish and think about what the majority want and/or what is best for the longevity of this competition. As for you quitting if you get 14th or 15th again: you say people who need to know their draft position are weak, then why is it that you can't do something with such picks? :rolleyes:

[ October 03, 2005, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: nydownunder ]

Walla Walla · Post by **Walla Walla** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:01 pm

I'll avoid most of the arguements here next year. Auction only. Silly things like DL for Mon-Thurs

aren't likely to effect a AL or NL auction league. Draft slot isn't a big one either. Funny some of those old time rules still work.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:22 pm

Originally posted by Spyhunter:

First of all, thanks Greg to looking into a solution to this....

I Truely believe that people would MUCH rather bid on their draft position. Personally, if I got the 14th or 15th draft position I would feel pissed and if I got it for 2 years in a row, I would probably quit NFBC. BUT if I made a concious choice to preserve FAAB $$ and others spent their FAAB to get a good spot, I would feel good about the 14th or 15th spot.

I guess I am confused as to what was wrong with the idea posted above around doing an open, 15 minute mini auction, then re-seating and drafting.

Players who feel they MUST know their spot in order to create a good draft strategy (are there people really this weak out there???), are taken care of in this approach because they can simply BID for it.

FAAB $ are the perfect way to to price the order because it imposes a 'cost' the rest of the season. If you want to pick your draft spot, you can, if you want to save $$$ and don't care, you can. It gives everyone a say in how they do.

BTW: The Auction drafts with the $260 caps do not need to do this - by definition, anyone can bid what they want in an Auction league so order doesn't need to be bid upon, IMHO

Spy Spy,

Slot bidding would be awesome, there was about a month long debate last year championed by Gekko and myself. Greg was concerned it could turn off some new players. We disagreed, but that's where it ended.

However, most players love to know their slot position well before the draft. It gives us something to think about, something to plan for. Whether it makes a big difference or not, it adds some excitement a few days before the draft. As a fantasy player himself, greg understands this and I doubt would even consider taking that element away. Slot bidding a week in advance, or at some form of slot selection, is what we should shoot for as feasible in the future.

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:37 pm

I'm with Spy and Gekko. The bidding model I posted earlier on this thread would make for a more skillful competion with lots of possible scenarios. On a popular vote I would hope the majority would elect a higher degree of player savvy over trusting to luck in a draw. Or maybe most of the players in the NFBC are sheep.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:20 pm

Moneymaker picked 8th.

Just proves again, in 16-team league, it does not matter where you pick.

Roster management is more important than where you draft.

Roberts, Peralta (wait he waived him), Ensberg all great picks.

Key pickups:

Chen $34 - 4/3

Jim Brower LOL $172 - 5/1

R.Barajas $8 - 5/8

C.Crisp - $472 - 5/29

and 4 $1 bids for 4 P's at end...probably double starts.

1 8 Carl Crawford LF Moneymaker

2 8 Ben Sheets SP Moneymaker

3 8 Jimmy Rollins SS Moneymaker

4 8 Mariano Rivera CL Moneymaker

5 8 Jason Isringhausen CL Moneymaker

6 8 Brian Roberts 2B Moneymaker

7 8 Richie Sexson 1B Moneymaker

8 8 Mark Loretta 2B Moneymaker

9 8 Craig Wilson LF Moneymaker

10 8 Geoff Jenkins RF Moneymaker

11 8 Odalis Perez SP Moneymaker

12 8 Kevin Mench LF Moneymaker

13 8 Andy Pettitte SP Moneymaker

14 8 Dmitri Young 1B Moneymaker

15 8 Craig Monroe RF Moneymaker

16 8 Morgan Ensberg 3B Moneymaker

17 8 John Lackey SP Moneymaker

18 8 Doug Davis SP Moneymaker

19 8 JD Closser C Moneymaker

20 8 Reggie Sanders LF Moneymaker

21 8 Aaron Harang SP Moneymaker

22 8 Jack Wilson SS Moneymaker

23 8 Glendon Rusch SP Moneymaker

24 8 Jhonny Peralta SS Moneymaker

25 8 Jeff Conine RF Moneymaker

26 8 Mark Redman SP Moneymaker

27 8 Chris Young SP Moneymaker

28 8 Bob Howry MR Moneymaker

29 8 Joe Kennedy SP Moneymaker

30 8 Gregg Zaun C Moneymaker

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:28 am

Originally posted by UFS:

Moneymaker picked 8th.

Just proves again, in 16-team league, it does not matter where you pick.

UFS,

How does the fact that the winner chose #8 prove it doesn't matter where you pick? More than 33% of the top 30 overall drafted in spots (6-10). I would take those spots over any others, any day of the week. Managers on the ends are more prone to reach for players because it can be up to another 28 picks before it comes back around to them. Players rarely fall to you at #1 and #15.

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:10 am

AND!!! Bidding would end all this conjecture. If you don't think it matters---Don't bid. If you do bid high. This "I think--You think" is wasted energy. Bids`stop all this meaninglessness. Put your FAAB$$$ where your mouth is OR NOT!!

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:34 am

Listen Kev, I never said I (personally) would have a problem with the bid idea.

What I have said is that a great many would have issues with it, and depending how and when such a bid process would be carried out, a large number of people will not return. So with that said, is such an idea really worth it. If its going to impact on the particpatioin and/or longevity of this competition, I would think not.

You know, a great number of people on this board present one sided arguments when it comes to suggested changes, thus rarely look at or consider the other side of it. I have yet to have a major issue with any one suggestion (as in to make me not return), but I still think its important that everyone sees both the Pros and Cons to every issue/suggestion.

[ October 04, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: nydownunder ]

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:45 am

Originally posted by nydownunder:

Listen Kev, I never said I (personally) would have a problem with the bid idea.

What I have said is that a great many would have issues with it, and depending how and when such a bid process would be carried out, a large number of people will not return. So with that said, is such an idea really worth it. If its going to impact on the particpatioin and/or longevity of this competition, I would think not.

You know, a great number of people on this board present one sided arguments when it comes to suggested changes, thus rarely look at or consider the other side of it. I have yet to have a major issue with any one suggestion (as in to make me not return), but I still think its important that everyone sees both the Pros and Cons to every issue/suggestion. IMO

The best idea is give out slots- give you 24 hours to fill in your preference or you could have already given your preferences. If I had no other choice I would rather bid FAAB than randomly get a slot- but my first choice would be to be able to pick my slot.

I do not see the logic on how this would scare people off, I would think the small percentage that would be scared off- would be offset by those who stay away because of a fear of getting a late pick (I am talking perception).

My guess would be that attendance for this event is more based upon size of entry fees, location of drafts, and prize structure than anything else.

If you make the arguement that this would widen the gap between the good and bad players I would tell you to look at these boards. People tend to have a lot of reasons in their heads why they lose some legit some not.

[ October 04, 2005, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Chest Rockwell ]

PittIsIt95 · Post by **PittIsIt95** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:45 am

I have to agree on doing something other than luck of the draw for draft positions. I agree with either model. Select an order and let people pick their spots based on that order (alot of people may not want a high draft pick), or my real preference is bidding.

Bidding actually allows you to somewhat dictate your team. If you have never done an auction league, you don't know what you are missing. Funny thing an auction league is - you control how your team is built!

Draft leagues are complete opposite, alot of luck and too much dependency on 14 other owners. At least bidding on your position in the draft gives you an opportunity to feel like you have SOME control over your own destiny.

I for one am probably going to drop the draft league (unless my co-owner persuades me to stay) due to the fact your hands are tied too much in a draft format. See ya'll in the auctions

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:11 am

Chest,

I think the biggest factor that would deter people, or is most critical to the majority whom play, is not knowing where they will be selecting (that would mean up to 0-48 hours before the draft). I think the bidding idea would deter some as well, just not as many as above. I think Krause pulling numbers 1-15 to determine whom chooses which slot in such order makes the most sense. I think there is probably a reason why most people shy away from Auction Leagues (ie bids), thus bids will certainly deter some. You have to realize that there are a good number of people whom do not deem themselves experts, so anything that may increase experts chances over novices, will certainly deter those novices whom help fill out our leagues.

Corkedbats · Post by **Corkedbats** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:30 am

Originally posted by Spyhunter:

First of all, thanks Greg to looking into a solution to this....

I Truely believe that people would MUCH rather bid on their draft position. Personally, if I got the 14th or 15th draft position I would feel pissed and if I got it for 2 years in a row, I would probably quit NFBC. BUT if I made a concious choice to preserve FAAB $$ and others spent their FAAB to get a good spot, I would feel good about the 14th or 15th spot.

I guess I am confused as to what was wrong with the idea posted above around doing an open, 15 minute mini auction, then re-seating and drafting.

Players who feel they MUST know their spot in order to create a good draft strategy (are there people really this weak out there???), are taken care of in this approach because they can simply BID for it.

FAAB $ are the perfect way to to price the order because it imposes a 'cost' the rest of the season. If you want to pick your draft spot, you can, if you want to save $$$ and don't care, you can. It gives everyone a say in how they do.

BTW: The Auction drafts with the $260 caps do not need to do this - by definition, anyone can bid what they want in an Auction league so order doesn't need to be bid upon, IMHO

Spy