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Okay, I dare anyone to partake in a real, live, MLB discussion. We're not talking about ADPs here or Slow Drafts being too slow and Fast Slow drafts being too fast to hold your pee, we're talking JUST ABOUT BASEBALL HERE!! I dare anyone to partake in this discussion!!

Joe Sheehan got my attention a few weeks back when he wrote in Sports Illustrated that the National League is losing all of the good corner infielders to the American League because those teams can overpay via free agency knowing that those sluggers can DH in their later years. He suggests that rather than get rid of the DH -- we all know the MLBPA will never let that happen when guys like David Ortiz can still generate $15 million a year -- the NL should ADD the DH.

ESPN is starting to sing the same tune and I agree all the way around. Listen, if we're going to have interleague play every day of the season, it's time to use the same rules for all baseball teams. This is going to be goofy to watch the AL teams send their pitchers to the plate every night. It's time to centralize the rules and get both leagues playing the same game.

Let's see some opinions on this subject. I've created a poll above and will run it for the next two weeks. You get to vote once. Yes, you want to see the NL add the DH or no you don't. Simple enough. We won't go into what MLB should do next, like banish the DH altogether, but feel free to write that in this thread. All opinions are welcome.

Now let's talk some BASEBALL on the NFBC boards. I dare ya.

NO. The National League shouldn't add the DH and I don't want to hear the argument of Interleague Play. They screwed the game up in 1973 with the DH and they are going to allow some of these guys to make runs at records that were made by legends without the use of the DH spot. Lets STOP the DH all together in 2013 and look back at this an just a 40 year phase baseball went through...

Winston's Empire wrote:NO. The National League shouldn't add the DH and I don't want to hear the argument of Interleague Play. They screwed the game up in 1973 with the DH and they are going to allow some of these guys to make runs at records that were made by legends without the use of the DH spot. Lets STOP the DH all together in 2013 and look back at this an just a 40 year phase baseball went through...

Yeah, you Cubs fans wish the last 40 years didn't exist!!! Ouch, shot to the mid-section!! That's just crazy talk.

It's like saying the new passing records in the NFL are taking away from the greatness of Bart Starr and Joe Namath and Johnny Unitas. No they're not. It's just an evolution of the game. The career marks of the MLB greats before the DH will always be remembered for their greatness. The fact that some greats like Paul Molitor and Vladimir Guerrero extended their careers as DH's shouldn't matter. It's unlikely that the DH will go away, so how do we make both leagues play under the same rules and move forward. It's idiotic to have both leagues playing different games with different rules and different ways to go after free agents.

Do the NFC and AFC play under different rules? Crazy and you know ol' Bud will make his stamp on history by solving this dilemma one way or another.

This vote will end up close to 50/50. Every American League fan I know says they would approve. Every National League fan I know hates it. Right or wrong it's here to stay no matter what, so it may as well be the same for both leagues. I must say that I don't mind the shift of power to the American League if it's indeed occuring.

Yes, I'm an American (Red, White & Blue) League kind of guy.....

I think we should also have designated runner (can run for anyone without them coming out of the game)... designated bunter (same thing, doesn't replace the player he bunts for); designated sacrifice flier ... same idea, and I think that on every other play the second baseman should switch glove hands. You may be able to guess how I voted

Money wrote:This vote will end up close to 50/50. Every American League fan I know says they would approve. Every National League fan I know hates it. Right or wrong it's here to stay no matter what, so it may as well be the same for both leagues. I must say that I don't mind the shift of power to the American League if it's indeed occuring.

Yes, I'm an American (Red, White & Blue) League kind of guy.....

IF INDEED IT'S OCCURRING!!! Joe, the AL just grabbed Pujols and Prince. IT'S HAPPENING MAN!! Sorry, just trying to have some fun on the boards again.

" greatness of Bart Starr and Joe Namath and Johnny Unitas."

wow. i just threw up in my mouth. you put Namath in the same sentence as Unitas and Starr? and used "greatness" even?
a guy with a career losing record and 50 more career int's than td's is great? if that's what you consider greatness, i shudder to think what you think mediocre or terrible is!

I am sorry but I am an old school guy. I have never liked the DH addition to MLB. I don’t call it the evolution of the game. Baseball is different from football and talking about passing records diminishing the greatness of Unitas and Starr are not fair comparisons because we are talking two different sports.
I remember the change in 1969 from AL and NL to AL (East and West division) and the same for the NL. It was strange/different and I didn’t like it. Then in 1994 MLB went to 3 divisions in each league. These changes, although different and easy to adjust to; how many here remember just the AL and NL 10 team leagues and two teams battle for the World Championship. I know we are talking DH and I am on a bit of a tangent but I am a baseball purist. These changes only added teams to MLB and then a few more teams in the playoffs.
DH? Baseball is 9 players on one team going against a rival team of 9 players all players played the field and all players had a turn at the plate, including the pitcher. Man, I still remember Tony Cloninger hitting 2 grand slams in the same game; forget the year, ’67 or ’68. If you can’t play the field, see you, hope you had a nice career but it is time to retire.
Sure, it may be fun for the fan to have extra offense, but the game was developed a certain way and we are still having this conversation. Why has the NL never adopted the DH? Probably because they are the senior circuit and hold the purists view of baseball. (I don’t know, I never asked anyone).
The rules have changed over the history of baseball; it was not always a 9 inning game; it wasn’t always 3 strikes and you’re out; the pitcher was closer to the hitter; most of these were prior to 1901. The one constant was 9 on 9 and the pitcher hit, after all, he played the field.
If a player is just holding on and the DH rule prolongs their career it is pretty sad. If you can’t play the game of baseball, leave the game with dignity.

Greg Ambrosius wrote:

Winston's Empire wrote: Yeah, you Cubs fans wish the last 40 years didn't exist!!! Ouch, shot to the mid-section!! That's just crazy talk.

Greg, I will forgive you this one shot, but only because I realize the Cubs have more WS Titles than the Brewers!
Totally agree, lets make it the same for both leagues.... Get Rid of the DH all together! Who knows, there could be another Babe Ruth like pitcher out there, but we will never know if he doesn't get to swing the lumber!

One of the original intents of the DH was to add offense, which of course it has. The AL has had a higher league average every season since 1973. But it was implemented at a time when the leagues were truly separate. Now that we will have inter-league play all season long, both leagues should use the same rules. It’s the perfect time to remove the rule, not expand it.

Remember, the idea of the DH has a long history dating back to the 1920’s and was even tried by both leagues in spring training 1969. As I said, one of the original goals was to increase run production. To move on from a time when pitchers had 1.12 ERA’s and league batting champs had a .301 average. But lack of offense is a problem that is no longer an issue.

As for the players union and the money, the easiest fix would be to add a 26th man to the roster. 30 more jobs are worth more than one or two true DH-type players, which is what we are down to. I believe the players would accept that and I would even bet that managers wouldn’t mind having an extra bench guy. With teams now carrying 11-12-13 pitchers, an extra man on the bench would be very useful.

My vote. Lose the DH!

Who wants to see a pitcher hit?
Who wants to see them lay down a bunt?
Who cares if Carlos Zambrano can hit while other pitchers flail?
I do!

This all comes back to the wussification of America. Soon quarterbacks will have flags to pull off their belts. Soon there will be a cage in front of the pitcher so he doesn't get hit with a line drive. Soon, catchers won't block home plate.
It'll all happen because the wussification gets worse with each year.

If this rule is passed, little leaguers won't be taught to bunt any more.
Why?
Because the sacrifice will be something of the past.
Soon, there won't even be a ninth hitter.
He'll be called the pre-leadoff hitter so his feelings won't get hurt like the last guy picked for dodge ball, oh never mind, dodge ball is banned in most schools already!
The bunt becomes the drop kick of baseball.
Not seeing bunts, except to leg out hits, will filter down to the lower levels.

If doing the dh, why don't we take it a step further and have your best fielding 3b take the field, while the best hitting 3b maintains his place in the lineup. We're already doing that with the pitcher. Why stop there?
The Players Association would like it and fans would get to see the best at the plate and in the field.
There is only one problem....
THAT'S NOT HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED!

My wife's favorite saying is that, 'two wrongs do not make a right'. She's right, and this would be wrong and wrong.
But, as in football with the qb already protected so much by the rules, I could see it happening.
The crazy outcry that collisions at the plate after Buster Posey would fester the same if a pitcher were to get hit by a pitch and lose a year with a broken bone.
'Omigosh, he's making 20 million dollars a year throwing a ball, why must he have to face the terrible consequences that a mere hitter has to go through!'
We have become a nation that wants to put one skill on display for everybody.
Forget about the other skills that may not be so good.
What we forget in passing these rules for pitchers, or quarterbacks, or catchers, is that the game is more important than any one player or any one position.

Lunatic wrote:I am sorry but I am an old school guy. I have never liked the DH addition to MLB. I don’t call it the evolution of the game. Baseball is different from football and talking about passing records diminishing the greatness of Unitas and Starr are not fair comparisons because we are talking two different sports.
I remember the change in 1969 from AL and NL to AL (East and West division) and the same for the NL. It was strange/different and I didn’t like it. Then in 1994 MLB went to 3 divisions in each league. These changes, although different and easy to adjust to; how many here remember just the AL and NL 10 team leagues and two teams battle for the World Championship. I know we are talking DH and I am on a bit of a tangent but I am a baseball purist. These changes only added teams to MLB and then a few more teams in the playoffs.
DH? Baseball is 9 players on one team going against a rival team of 9 players all players played the field and all players had a turn at the plate, including the pitcher. Man, I still remember Tony Cloninger hitting 2 grand slams in the same game; forget the year, ’67 or ’68. If you can’t play the field, see you, hope you had a nice career but it is time to retire.
Sure, it may be fun for the fan to have extra offense, but the game was developed a certain way and we are still having this conversation. Why has the NL never adopted the DH? Probably because they are the senior circuit and hold the purists view of baseball. (I don’t know, I never asked anyone).
The rules have changed over the history of baseball; it was not always a 9 inning game; it wasn’t always 3 strikes and you’re out; the pitcher was closer to the hitter; most of these were prior to 1901. The one constant was 9 on 9 and the pitcher hit, after all, he played the field.
If a player is just holding on and the DH rule prolongs their career it is pretty sad. If you can’t play the game of baseball, leave the game with dignity.

yes, I agree completely. The problem is from a competitive point of view the NL is getting screwed. Would the Cards have won last yr w/o Pujols, doubt that. I don't want to see the equivalent of the Super Bowl as a kid growing up in the 80's (every yr the NFC thrashed the AFC). However when forced to vote this situation reminds me of something I learned when I was just a wee lad - 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Next survey question: Should MLB abolish the DH:

Yes
No

I think I know the answer already.

Where to begin?The dh has added offense to the american league but at the same time has made it so we have to watch chris getz bat.Now if you put all the dhs in the nl and put them in the field what would the conference's era 's be? If you were a starting pitcher would you rather damon,vlad,ortiz,betemit ,dunn,L scott, in the field behind you and face a starting pitcher batting 9th?What would that do to your era for a season(hell the rangers couldnt keep vlad in the outfield for the world series for 1 game)?or would you rather have to face them but knowing you have better defense behind you? If carlos lee,chipper,morse,soriano,ludwick,(any starting corner infielder for the pirates)berkman,helton,played in the al they would probably be dh's but as a nl pitcher if you want their bat in the lineup you have to give up some defense to get the offense.I say get rid of the dh and if you want to bat play the field.
Some of you numbers guys could probably get this info but what was the nl production out of the 9th spot for the season (avg,hr's,rbi and runs ) compared to the al.I personally would rather pitch to a dh and see sam fuld behind me as oppossed to johnny damon.

i respect all the opinions and i will dissent almost for the hell of it.

baseball records are tainted now by steriods as if they werent tainted before by who played, who didnt, size of older parks, length of season etc.. so the sanctity of stats shouldnt be a reason why the dh is kept or discarded. those records are at this point almost laughable... i know i know.. history!

i appreciate the strategy argument. yes, the NL has more strategy, but id also argue there are a lot of extra in game moves that are time consuming and at times just not necessary. pitching changes in the NL are so commonplace one could argue that the NL is set up more as a league with more closely defined roles. more specialized. id rather have a big papi hit day in and day out then see wes helms collect 300 abs because well he is a great pinch hitter and boy do other guys need days off.

id also argue that the NL not only has a guy in the 9 hole (thank god tony is gone) that is a worthless hitter, but it seems more likely than not that guy in the 8 hole is crappy too. maybe he isnt full on crappy but with a pitcher on deck his ability to hit is greatly diminished because why pitch to this crappy 240 hitting #8 hitter when i can pitch to the even crappier 120 hitting pitcher.

time are changing and most would agree that change sucks. and since we are probably only a year or two away from big business and MLB moving to 50% of teams get into the MLB playoffs like the NBA and the NHL.. who cares. espn and big advertising money is destroying sports as we all love and know it.

but bring on that fantasy season..

Rog wrote: Some of you numbers guys could probably get this info but what was the nl production out of the 9th spot for the season (avg,hr's,rbi and runs ) compared to the al.I personally would rather pitch to a dh and see sam fuld behind me as oppossed to johnny damon.

Team………………………………….PA.........AB…….……..R………………HR…..……..RBI……….…SB………AVG
NL 9th Total (per team avg)…9804…….8541……662(41.3)…...87(5.4).....661(41.3)….70(4.4)…….180
AL 9th Total (per team avg)…8585……7745…….890(63.6)……142(10.1)...765(54.6)...166(11.9)….238

Difference per team avg AL ov NL...................22.............5.............13...........7.........058



NL 8th Total(per team avg)...10109....9014....907(56.7)....164(10.3)....916(57.3)...90(5.6).....246
AL 8th Total(per team avg)...8840.....7935....959(68.5)....205(14.6)....904(64.6)...137(9.8)....240


Difference per team avg AL ov NL...................12.............4...............7..........4..........-006

Greg Ambrosius wrote:Next survey question: Should MLB abolish the DH:

Yes
No

I think I know the answer already.

Yes, abolish the DH in major league baseball.

Start a new league where all of the David Ortiz's can bat and all of the Judy's can play the field.

MLBaseball = athletes
DHBaseball = weak fast guys and fat strong guys

NorCalAtlFan wrote:" greatness of Bart Starr and Joe Namath and Johnny Unitas."

wow. i just threw up in my mouth. you put Namath in the same sentence as Unitas and Starr? and used "greatness" even?
a guy with a career losing record and 50 more career int's than td's is great? if that's what you consider greatness, i shudder to think what you think mediocre or terrible is!

I agree that Namath doesn't belong in the same sentence as Unitas and Starr. After all, what have Johnny U or Starr achieved to put them on such an exhaulted level.

As far as the DH is concerned, if I could change just one thing about baseball, it would be to eliminate the designated hitter rule. Even though it's been around as long as I've watched the game, it never felt like baseball to me. If you hit, you play a position. If you play a position, you hit. That's the game I love.

Greg Ambrosius wrote:

Winston's Empire wrote:NO. The National League shouldn't add the DH and I don't want to hear the argument of Interleague Play. They screwed the game up in 1973 with the DH and they are going to allow some of these guys to make runs at records that were made by legends without the use of the DH spot. Lets STOP the DH all together in 2013 and look back at this an just a 40 year phase baseball went through...

Yeah, you Cubs fans wish the last 40 years didn't exist!!! Ouch, shot to the mid-section!! That's just crazy talk.

It's like saying the new passing records in the NFL are taking away from the greatness of Bart Starr and Joe Namath and Johnny Unitas. No they're not. It's just an evolution of the game. The career marks of the MLB greats before the DH will always be remembered for their greatness. The fact that some greats like Paul Molitor and Vladimir Guerrero extended their careers as DH's shouldn't matter. It's unlikely that the DH will go away, so how do we make both leagues play under the same rules and move forward. It's idiotic to have both leagues playing different games with different rules and different ways to go after free agents.

Do the NFC and AFC play under different rules? Crazy and you know ol' Bud will make his stamp on history by solving this dilemma one way or another.

I could write a novel in response to this one, but I think that this one statement that Greg made was the thing that made me more nauseous than the Namath pairing with Unitas and Starr: "It's just an evolution of the game." Evolution according to Mr. Webster is the process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state: growth. If the designated hitter has done this for the game of baseball other than for business reasons, I would like someone to prove it with hard evidence. For all the wonderful reasons Dough illustrated in his post, and more, the idea of the DH is just pure idiocy in terms of "evolving" and making the game better. True, baseball has done a lot over the years to shoot itself in the foot, but I don't think there has been a more polarizing thing that it has done than when it created a new set of rules that made it a different game for the AL and the NL. Yes Mrs. Kenyon, in fact two wrongs do not make a right no matter how you try to spin it. So the powers that be can realign baseball, add teams, subtract teams, unbalance and balance schedules, add divisions, add post season games, add a wildcard (or two), play games overseas, have baseball in March and sometimes even November, add replay, add inter-league play, add free agency, change free agency, add arbitration, and God help me, even add the World Baseball Classic (just to name a few)...but don't change the rules of the game when they aren't broken and don't need fixing! If the game was meant to have only pitchers pitch and hitters hit, it would have been laid out that way by the founders from the beginning. But it wasn't. It was a game (a work of genius and art really) that was created to be played by ball players. And anything that has them do less than what all ball players were ordained to do is a bastardization and an abomination to the game which threatens to weaken what small, tenuous threads of integrity that the game retains today which serve to keep it protected and insulated from such horrors as a time clock and unlimited substitutions. So I guess I'm a "no" on the DH.

I am a no and I do not give a fig about baseball records. The DH is just BORING...have some fat, old guy have to put down his brat, wipe the mustard off his chin, and disengage the battery charger from his 'nads so he can waddle out to the plate with just enough strength to swing 30+ozs of wood. YeeeeHaaaaw!

The DH is as much about baseball as Snookie is about class and deportment.

If you want to see Papi play, there is always church softball leagues, which is where he belongs.

Seeing the pitcher bat with runners on, everyone "knowing" a bunt is coming, players racing from first towards second on the pitch, the first baseman and third baseman charging the plate, the shortstop and second baseman wheeling to cover the bags...action, intelligence, and strategy.

Sure the MLBPA wants the DH. The MLBPA has brought us so many other good things too...like grossly inflated salaries, prices (you like paying $12 for a beer and a crappy dog?) and strikes. The MLBPA is greedy and counterproductive.

Players who cannot contribute to all aspects of the game are called benchwarmers. NO DH!

Edwards Kings wrote:Seeing the pitcher bat with runners on, everyone "knowing" a bunt is coming, players racing from first towards second on the pitch, the first baseman and third baseman charging the plate, the shortstop and second baseman wheeling to cover the bags...action, intelligence, and strategy.

With this much action in baseball Wayne, no wonder you're not an NFL fan. That action would be boring compared to all of this good stuff!!

Sorry, I enjoy playing devil's advocate here and getting all of you old dudes riled up. What Wayne described above does nothing for me. Sorry. It's a useless waste of time.

Now I'm all for getting rid of the DH and won't argue against it if both leagues get rid of it. My point is that if we're really crossing over into the Dark Side with complete inter-league play all year long then you can't have two sets of rules. Either get rid of the DH altogether or add the DH to the NL, but how in the hell can you play all year long with two completely different sets of rules? It's like having the extra point in the NFC but not in the AFC. One team gets 7 points per touchdown and the other team gets 6 points and don't have to carry a kicker on their roster. It's just dumb and Bud should have realized that before he unveiled full interleague play.

Glad to see some passion on the boards again. That was the point in this whole thread...and to rile Doughboys and Wayne up.

Edwards Kings wrote:The DH is as much about baseball as Snookie is about class and deportment.

If there's any reason to get rid of the DH, the visual Wayne just put in my head is reason enough.

Imagine if the DH rule is adopted in the National League as well, Snookie stepping up to the plate for her 1st at bat as the new DH of the Cubbies.....Yikes!!!

Greg...don't make me come over there young man!



I do agree however. All one or the other. Baseball should not be perpetually half good (NL) and half evil (AL). To me and I certainly recognize that this is not a consensus opinion, if we do go all DH, baseball will be a little less than it was.

Edwards Kings wrote:
Sure the MLBPA wants the DH. The MLBPA has brought us so many other good things too...like grossly inflated salaries, prices (you like paying $12 for a beer and a crappy dog?) and strikes. The MLBPA is greedy and counterproductive.

Yes. The game was soooo much better when players were treated as property. When they were told where they will play and for how much; and if they didn’t like it…….tough sh*t. How dare the workers ask to be compensated for their labor in a manner that reflects the profits being earned by their owners. In fact, somebody should put out a warrant for the arrest of Albert Pujols. We all saw the way he held up Artie Morano for $240M. Of course, don’t anyone tell the 1500 Angels fans that bought season ticket packages the next day that the majority of their money will go to Moreno and not Albert. That they’ll have to pay for Arties parking, his hotdogs, and beers. I bet Artie feels bad that he only gets to keep approx 60% of the money that people are lining up to pay, while the rest on the money will have to go to those greedy bastards that the suckers (oops, I mean fans) pay to watch.


And just to be clear, I have nothing against the owners. From everything I’ve read, Moreno is one of the best “fan’s owner” that there is. We have a great new owner here in Chicago with Tom Rickets.

I don’t care if the owners make a billion dollars every year. But for you to suggest that it’s the players that are driving the cost of your hotdog or beer flies in the face of the economic reality of supply and demand. Sure, salary’s play a role in price setting. But in the end, Morano and the other owners are going to set prices that allow them to cover their nut each year.

Moreno could sell the Big “A” to 100% capacity every night if he charged $1 per ticket. His question is, what is the most I can charge, and what do I have to do to charge it? In this case, I bet that Morano made the calculation that signing Pujols for $240M would allow him to charge more (for tickets, hotdogs, beer, tv ads). Now I don’t know if the Angels raised prices this year or not, but they will at some time, and there will be some fan out there that will be gripping that it’s Albert’s fault that Pujols’ fixed cost salary drove up the price instead of thinking about how his play and popularity allow Moreno to charge (and earn) more.

Glenneration X wrote:

Edwards Kings wrote:The DH is as much about baseball as Snookie is about class and deportment.

If there's any reason to get rid of the DH, the visual Wayne just put in my head is reason enough.

Imagine if the DH rule is adopted in the National League as well, Snookie stepping up to the plate for her 1st at bat as the new DH of the Cubbies.....Yikes!!!

Snookie would be a terrible DH for the Cubs Glenn for I am not sure she would help us much, but there is NO WAY the Mets new DH can make them any worse!