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Everyone should check out this article, very eye opening and many great discussion points.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... =hp_t11_a0

Now that, that was a wonderful article and I hope Verducci wins some sort of accolade for it.
Best column I have read this year.

Thanks Rob!

DOUGHBOYS wrote:Now that, that was a wonderful article and I hope Verducci wins some sort of accolade for it.
Best column I have read this year.

Thanks Rob!

Thanks Dan. Reading the previous posts about closer fail and Verlander's pitch counts, it does seem that this current template on how pitchers are handled is not working. This article just nailed it.

Interesting that the man for whom the “Verducci Effect” is named, after he brought to light the injury rate for pitchers with increased workloads, is now suggesting that baseball may be doing it wrong by limiting closer workloads.

Navel Lint wrote:Interesting that the man for whom the “Verducci Effect” is named, after he brought to light the injury rate for pitchers with increased workloads, is now suggesting that baseball may be doing it wrong by limiting closer workloads.

The Verducci Effect was always nonsense; somewhere between "well, duh, of course large increase in workloads on young arms leads to injury" and "there's absolutely no factual evidence to support the arbitrary 30 inning increase he uses as a cutoff point."

Verducci does have a point but doesn't really offer any conclusions. Some smart organization will figure out a new approach. My bet is Tampa. Then again, maybe they are already doing it because they've kept almost all of their young pitching healthy - even the ones that went to Rice.

It sounds kind of funny to say, but maybe with the advent of technology, and the advances of medicine, and more knowledge of the human body...That it has all combined to do pitchers a disservice.
Sure, before all of this progression, there were 'sore arms', but nothing to the extent of which we have now.
Pitchers are treated like other athletes. They work out during the off season, some have throwing programs as prescribed by team doctors or physical therapists or sports medicine experts.
Maybe, it's all bunk.

Pitchers in the day threw when their Managers wanted them to throw.
No pitch counts or innings limits or certain days between pitching.
Maybe they had it right. These fellas did not go home during the off season and 'work out' and throw to get their arms ready for the next season. Most of them didn't even make a throwing motion for five months or over work an arm during a work out.
It was total rest.
Maybe six months of pitching and five months of complete rest, with one month of spring training is the best formula for a pitcher.

Back in the day, pitchers who could throw every day were called 'rubber arms'.
Pitchers work out so much now that both literally and figuratively, they won't be called by that term.

DOUGHBOYS wrote: Pitchers in the day threw when their Managers wanted them to throw.
No pitch counts or innings limits or certain days between pitching.
Maybe they had it right. These fellas did not go home during the off season and 'work out' and throw to get their arms ready for the next season. Most of them didn't even make a throwing motion for five months or over work an arm during a work out.
It was total rest.
Maybe six months of pitching and five months of complete rest, with one month of spring training is the best formula for a pitcher.

Back in the day, pitchers who could throw every day were called 'rubber arms'.
Pitchers work out so much now that both literally and figuratively, they won't be called by that term.

And don't forget about those 4 man rotations.

DOUGHBOYS wrote: Sure, before all of this progression, there were 'sore arms', but nothing to the extent of which we have now.

Is there any evidence that there are more arm injuries now than 20/30/50 years ago? I don’t know.

Sure, we hear of ever arm injury now, it’s certainly easier to diagnose them. But the odds are that many of the “sore arms” of the 60’s and 70’s that you referred to are the same injuries that we are seeing now, but they just were diagnosed that way. Maybe the pitchers didn’t leave the game because of “injury”, maybe they left because "for some unknown reason, they just couldn’t seem to get anyone out anymore".

Let’s face it, pitchers under the Reserve Clause system had zero incentive to report arm injuries. First of course is the fact that they basically had no way to repair a damaged arm anyway. Second was the money structure of the game. Baseball was truly a job for a large percentage of the players. A job that paid the bills, a job that most players did not have the monetary ability to walk away from nor the job security that would allow them to "rest".

Many people are quick to suggest that the money has made the player of today soft. Since the eighties I’ve been hearing people say that the big money and free agent contracts will prevent players from staying motivated and playing as long as possible. But quick, when was the last time that you remember a player under the age of say 37 volunteering to retire when there were known offers out there for that player, I can’t think of any. Oh wait, I can. Sandy Koufax. And he didn’t leave because of the money, he quit because he wanted to be able to raise his left arm above his head when he was 60.

In fact, if money is such a de-motivator, why do we see players continue to undergo the knife so that they can keep pitching? Brian Wilson has made $21M the last 3 years on the field plus all the money he’s made off the field, yet he is about to have a second arm surgery so that he can come back and pitch again. And the funny things is, because of that, instead of calling him a tough S O B that just wants to play the game until every single last drop of sweat that he has is left out on the field, lots of people will say he is doing it just to get one more contract.

How about Tim Lincecum? After three poor starts and a drop in velocity, many people are questioning whether he has an arm injury or not, but I don’t hear anyone talking about how tough he is and that he is a throwback to the old days when pitchers just showed up every time it was their turn to take the ball no matter how their arm feels. Yet when Verlander throws a 133 pitch complete game he gets heaped with praise for his “old school” ways.

So I don’t know if there are more arm injuries out there or not. Maybe it’s just that throwing a baseball is not an easy thing to do.

And so for every Juan Marichal, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, and Roy Halladay out there, you will find a Chuck Estrada, Mark Fidrych, Brien Taylor, and Mark Prior.

I posted this the other day...Verducci must have read it for the jist of his article.... yeah right! but basically the he makes the same points I have been seeing for a few years. I agree that Bullpen by committee is the wave of the future and we will see it a lot this year. It should force the re-evaluation of Saves as counting category I would think in the future.

Morse Same injury as Peavy
by Outlaw » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:08 pm

mlbbug wrote:
I've never seen so many players going down with serious injuries this early in the year. Looks like Greg and Tom will be dipping into that insurance fund a lot this year.

Agree- i say it every year the past few years, but this year has got to be the worst and so early too....me thinks the roid era hid/stopped a lot of injuries. Now with no PEDS and players working out harder and harder all year long to keep their jobs, their bodies are breaking much easier, especially with all the weight training and muscle work they are doing.

Why not use a combined category of saves plus holds (maybe you call it "sholds"...kudos to Ray Flowers for this very idea) That would eliminate the huge FAAB bids on the closer du jour and add value to all elite bullpen pithcers,not just closers All I know is that the current category of saves is starting to lose it's value and meaning. You constantly see managers keeping some of their better skilled pitchers for late setup rather than "closing"(e.g. Clippard,Thornton,Romo.etc)