NFBC Message Boards

While we were very pleased with the introduction of our 12-Team Main Event last year, we know that we can grow this event even more in future leagues. We really believe that the majority of fantasy baseball players are more familiar with 12-team contests than 15-team contests and thus we do believe the NFBC XII as a live event has a great, great future. Now it's time to tweak the structure slightly and sell this baby out.

Last year our overall prizes were based on 300 teams and we finished with 252 teams. That was a good start. Now for the obvious question: What do we need to do this year to get to 300 or more teams?

** Let's start with the name. Is the use of Roman Numerals a positive or a negative?

Answer: NFBC XII looks stately, but is it confusing? Should it be NFBC 12? A catchier name? Leave it alone? I had people refer to it as the NFBC "ex-eye-eye", which told me they weren't getting the 12-team part of it. Again, any thoughts on leaving it as NFBC XII or changing to NFBC 12 or anything else is appreciated. Thanks.

** Price Point: The $1,000 entry is lower than our Main Event, but is it too low to guarantee a bigger carrot? Would going a little higher be a turnoff or a positive? (FYI: It's not economical to go lower for a live event.)

** Pay Top 2 in each league: We pay $4,000 for each league champion (4x) and $2,000 for each league runner-up (2x). Would adding $500 for third place add to this event? But if we do that, it would have to be at the expense of the overall or by moving to 324 or more teams.

** We will again offer the $75,000 cash bonus for anyone who can win both the NFBC Main Event and the NFBC XII as we had two owners almost pull that off this year (Dave Potts and Chad Schroeder). Is the important for this event?

I think that covers things. Any feedback is good feedback, so thanks much.

Greg- the name is fine. Just use the word Main in the promotion of it. Up the entry to $1200.00, i beleive that can be supported. Have a 3rd place finish prize equal to the entry fee. Just my 12 cents...

Greg, I didnt do the XII last year, but am planning on to this year. This year I was just in the Online, Slow and some satellites. I think the price point, at least for my slightly above middle class family is already a bit steep. I think around $750 would be perfect. I as Joe Bag of Donuts player thinks of this way...I got the $350 Online, then the big jump up to $1000 for the XII then to $1400 for the Main. The $350 is a sweet spot, but then it becomes a little more and more sketchy as we approach the $1000 mark. As value goes, and to increase my chances and fun, I would much rather spend $2250 on 3 teams vs $2000 on 2. Plus, perhaps the sheer psychology of spending $1000 on a fantasy team might steer some folks away from the game but at $750, they might want to throw in. Obviously by lowering the entry fee, the overall prize would have to be lowered but maybe could be made up with more entries? (ahh...I just re-read and saw the part about lowering it is bad for the live events). Umm, so I guess what I just wrote doesnt matter. However, increasing the entry would probably knock me out of this particular contest

As far as the payouts, I would prefer a 3rd place payout. Not necessarily that I am shooting for 3rd...In the satellites and slows, its at least nice to make your money back if you finish 3rd. Plus, I think have noticed this in the Online Championship, that if teams have no realistic chance at finishing 1 or 2, the tendency is to check out. Thus actually affecting the top two teams because there are less teams who are playing it out.

Clarification: If we pay out 3rd place in a 12-team league, it won't be money back like in a 15-team league. In the NFFC, it is usually half of entry because 3rd out of 12 isn't near as tough as 3rd out of 15. So it might be $500. Now is that enough x 25 leagues ($12,500) to get us to 300 or beyond to pay for it plus keep the grand prize at $50,000?

Carrots are needed to grow national events. We know that from experience. We also know that hosting live events in the $500-$750 range is not cost efficient or even possible (especially in New York or at the Bellagio). So we have to start this conversation at $1,000. Plus we do want to make this into another Main Event and grow this big-time. We struggled with the 12-team format in football for a year or two, but now our 12-teamer is much more popular than our 14-team format. I don't think that will happen anytime soon in baseball, but I do think the masses are out there to make our NFBC XII into a major Main Event with a grand prize that will soon exceed $50,000. Hopefully it reaches $100,000 someday.

I'm jaded.
A 15 team guy now. Playing in under NFBC rules for years and years has done that to me.
I may experiment with 12 team leagues this year, I haven't decided yet.
When I look at NFBC XII, it only tells me it is a 12 team league.
It may tell others something different, but that is what it tells me.
I like NFBC Classic. Everybody knows that that is the Main Event.
I don't get that from NFBC XII.

How about NFBC Classic 15 and NFBC Classic 12?
The 12 teamer is played with an overall like the 15 teamer. The only difference being the amount of teams.
The event is implied in the name, piggybacking the success of the 15 teamers.
Just a thought.

I like the $1000 price point ,dont want to see it go any higher or lower.
any higher and I might as well just do another main
any lower and I will just buy 2 more teams in the online championship
I dont care about paying 3rd, if so few teams were involved. With the # of teams that was in it last year keep the overall top prize then scrap 3rd place money(you all need to make money also)
maybe something like $1000 entry fee and if you dont get say 350 teams then you only pay top 2
If you get over 350 then you pay top
(by the way still trying to find a scoring change to get me 1/2 point and a tie for tenth)finishing 11th by 1/2 point hurts a little.
I might be a little partial because this was the only event I did ok in.

Greg Ambrosius wrote: ** Let's start with the name. Is the use of Roman Numerals a positive or a negative?

Answer: NFBC XII looks stately, but is it confusing? Should it be NFBC 12? A catchier name? Leave it alone? I had people refer to it as the NFBC "ex-eye-eye", which told me they weren't getting the 12-team part of it. Again, any thoughts on leaving it as NFBC XII or changing to NFBC 12 or anything else is appreciated. Thanks.

How about "NFBC Lite"?

Tastes great! Less filling!

King of Queens wrote:

Greg Ambrosius wrote: ** Let's start with the name. Is the use of Roman Numerals a positive or a negative?

Answer: NFBC XII looks stately, but is it confusing? Should it be NFBC 12? A catchier name? Leave it alone? I had people refer to it as the NFBC "ex-eye-eye", which told me they weren't getting the 12-team part of it. Again, any thoughts on leaving it as NFBC XII or changing to NFBC 12 or anything else is appreciated. Thanks.

How about "NFBC Lite"?

Tastes great! Less filling!

HA! Funny.

After last season I was frustrated at my lack of success in the 15 team format, so much so that I was not going to play any more main events. I was only having some success with the 12 team format. Along comes the NFBC XII, so I figured what the heck. It is in the 12 team format that you have your best chance to cash, the best chance to cash equals more player retention. I was done until it came along. I will now (probably) try a 15 team event next year, although I'm not sure. I really think that you need a natural progression to be able to compete around here. Jumping into the 15 team events is very very difficult.

One thing is for sure I will support this format and the NFBC should as well. It is their best opportunity for growth.

The name doesn't matter to me. I'd like the price point to be higher if only to get the 12 team main event on equal footing with the 15 team event. That may have to wait a year. It's not far behind in my opinion.

3 years from now the NFBC XII will be the main event and the main event will be the NFBC XV

I would guess there's a pretty big psychological barrier at $1000. So, given that it is not economically feasible to run a live event at a lower price, it makes sense to consider raising the price to help support the big payout that you're looking for.

Since the 15 team entry fee is going to be $1500, why not $1200 for the 12 team event? There's some natural synergy there and the extra $200 times the budgeted 300 teams would go a long way to building the pot.

Perhaps the ex eye eye is stuck in the no mans land between wanting to be a live main and event and an online event. Sure, a lot of people who can go to a live event city will do it, but to really really grow it, the online element needs to be much bigger. So your average guy who wants to play online in a high stakes game, is turned off by the $1000 price. Might as well do 3 onlines and hope they can win that vs 1 entry at $1000.

Who knows, maybe it can still be huge at $1000 but with the way the $350 online championship game is taking off, the XII might have little more growth.

I like Happenstance's suggestion regarding the 1200 entry. I also like Doughboys' thought regarding Classic 15 and Classic 12. Like he said, the similar names implying same contest, just different # of teams per league, should minimize confusion for new owners. Classic 15/12 probably works just fine, but if baseball goes the route of football, where the 12 team format becomes the more popular event, I suppose "Main Event 15" and "Main Event 12" would work too.

What about naming it the "Primetime"? It is a signature name that all of your football clients are familiar with. So they would automatically know it is a main event. And it also is 12 teams, similar to the primetime football contest.

Cocktails and Dreams wrote:What about naming it the "Primetime"? It is a signature name that all of your football clients are familiar with. So they would automatically know it is a main event. And it also is 12 teams, similar to the primetime football contest.

Okay, again thanks for the suggestions. I'm not sure if it's a name thing or not, but Classic and Primetime is a possibility. We do need to keep letting folks know that our 12-teamer is a Main Event, like the 15-teamer. So from just a promotional and name aspect, we can do better. We do have two good Main Events now and we need to promote both equally, even though one has a $100,000 grand prize and the other is at $50,000.

joshguy wrote:Perhaps the ex eye eye is stuck in the no mans land between wanting to be a live main and event and an online event. Sure, a lot of people who can go to a live event city will do it, but to really really grow it, the online element needs to be much bigger. So your average guy who wants to play online in a high stakes game, is turned off by the $1000 price. Might as well do 3 onlines and hope they can win that vs 1 entry at $1000.

Who knows, maybe it can still be huge at $1000 but with the way the $350 online championship game is taking off, the XII might have little more growth.

I don't agree that we are stuck in no man's land here, but I guess we need to prove it. One thing we're certainly seeing now is that drafting online for a price point of $1,000 or $1,500 or even $2,500 or $5,000 isn't a barrier anymore. We had a full $5,000 online draft in football this year and we have more and more people drafting Main Events at $1,000 or more in basketball right now and last year in football and baseball. You are right, for the NFBC XII to grow we do need growth at the live events and especially online because time is tight at the live events thanks to the auction leagues. There is little time to do the NFBC XIIs, so we need to grow this event online and offer more times for this one.

The 12-team format is more familiar with fantasy players than the 15-team format, so I don't agree that there is little room for growth in the NFBC XII. Heck, look at how much the Online Championship has grown in the last three years. In fact, I agree with Joe Berg that this format can get bigger than any other event if we do this right. But we have to grow it by adding new owners, not at the expense of our signature event. We'll continue to look at the format and push the envelope if needed. Maybe this year will have minimal changes as we establish this as the industry's top 12-team Main Event, but we will push the envelope here because we really do believe that the potential for growth is as great here as in any other format.

And at only 252 teams last year, this event was a positive for us and the ROI for players was OUTSTANDING. Everyone won last year. But at 300 teams, we are a little happier than at 252!

Why not just call the 15-team Main Event and the 12-team Main Event? I suspect that regardless of what they're actually named, that's how I'll refer to them and everyone would know to which events I'm referring.

Greg, Im not saying it wont grow,I hope it does. I was just suggesting that after everyone puts down money for the main and/or online champ that money might get a little tight for some players. But if its not feasible to go down, the $1000 price point is pretty solid. I would just suggest that if you get more entries than you need to easily make the $50,000 prize and if you're willing to, maybe kick the extra money down to 3rd place finishers rather than increase the 1st overall. Sure its great for that one person but 20 other guys would feel a lot better at getting say 1/3 of their money back than nothing.

Also, I was trying to look for it, I thought I saw this spring somewhere if you got a main event/online champ teams, there was some sort of deal. Any chance on things like that happening for 2013?

Greg, here are my answers and I have a few comments at the end...

** Let's start with the name. Is the use of Roman Numerals a positive or a negative?

A. Doesn't really matter. If you look at the marketing for Wrestlemania, they used Roman Numerals early on but then they thought that their younger audience might not be able to decipher the Roman Numerals so they went back to using regular numbers. I think we have a smart group here so Roman Numerals are fine, but I do like the suggestion to name NFBC XII Primetime...

** Price Point: The $1,000 entry is lower than our Main Event, but is it too low to guarantee a bigger carrot? Would going a little higher be a turnoff or a positive? (FYI: It's not economical to go lower for a live event.)

A. I think going higher for this contest would be a turnoff for me, especially if I'm trying to afford both a 15-teamer and 12-teamer league.

** Pay Top 2 in each league: We pay $4,000 for each league champion (4x) and $2,000 for each league runner-up (2x). Would adding $500 for third place add to this event? But if we do that, it would have to be at the expense of the overall or by moving to 324 or more teams.

A. I think having a third place prize closer to the entry fee is more feasible, especially if you are raising the amount of teams into the contest. However, if this prevents you from having a viable profitable contest, then I would suggest $750 for third place. If neither of these options work, I don't like the $500 prize option. I would rather see that money put in the overall prize fund.

** We will again offer the $75,000 cash bonus for anyone who can win both the NFBC Main Event and the NFBC XII as we had two owners almost pull that off this year (Dave Potts and Chad Schroeder). Is the important for this event?

A. Yes, I think this encourages more signups for the Double Main Event.

Greg and Tom, I think you both do a great job along with everyone at STATS and all of the volunteers, as I have also volunteered many times myself. Here are a few comments that I have:

-Instead of farming out contests to Fanduel, why not have your own weekly contest on the NFBC website, either a daily contest or a weekly re-draft? I think this is easier to do for NFL games but it's worth a try in addition to the regular games isn't it?
-I think if you draft online, you shouldn't have to pay the live events fee if it is an online draft with all 12 or 15 teams...

Thanks!

Greg Ambrosius wrote:While we were very pleased with the introduction of our 12-Team Main Event last year, we know that we can grow this event even more in future leagues. We really believe that the majority of fantasy baseball players are more familiar with 12-team contests than 15-team contests and thus we do believe the NFBC XII as a live event has a great, great future. Now it's time to tweak the structure slightly and sell this baby out.

Last year our overall prizes were based on 300 teams and we finished with 252 teams. That was a good start. Now for the obvious question: What do we need to do this year to get to 300 or more teams?

** Let's start with the name. Is the use of Roman Numerals a positive or a negative?

Answer: NFBC XII looks stately, but is it confusing? Should it be NFBC 12? A catchier name? Leave it alone? I had people refer to it as the NFBC "ex-eye-eye", which told me they weren't getting the 12-team part of it. Again, any thoughts on leaving it as NFBC XII or changing to NFBC 12 or anything else is appreciated. Thanks.

** Price Point: The $1,000 entry is lower than our Main Event, but is it too low to guarantee a bigger carrot? Would going a little higher be a turnoff or a positive? (FYI: It's not economical to go lower for a live event.)

** Pay Top 2 in each league: We pay $4,000 for each league champion (4x) and $2,000 for each league runner-up (2x). Would adding $500 for third place add to this event? But if we do that, it would have to be at the expense of the overall or by moving to 324 or more teams.

** We will again offer the $75,000 cash bonus for anyone who can win both the NFBC Main Event and the NFBC XII as we had two owners almost pull that off this year (Dave Potts and Chad Schroeder). Is the important for this event?

I think that covers things. Any feedback is good feedback, so thanks much.

Okay, thanks for the feedback everyone. I haven't announced the NFBC XII rules or setup yet because I'm still mulling some ideas to make our 12-Team Main Event even more special. Your suggestions helped.

Here's my summary:

** Name - This isn't what's holding back this event from growing. We need to make sure everyone knows this is a Main Event for a national contest with a big prize and that your odds of winning here are as good as they get in the NFBC. Yes, owners can take 3 Online teams for $1,000, but no matter how you slice it the odds of winning in the OC are higher than in the NFBC XII. We'll stick with NFBC XII for now and push it harder as a Main Event.

** Price Point - We'll stick with $1,000. It's not time to increase it.

** We will offer the $75,000 cash bonus for winning both Main Events.

** Now for the prizes. I need help here. I want to beef this contest up like we did with the NFBC Main Event. There we increased the league prize to $6,500. If we based this contest on 324 teams we could make 1st place $4,500 and 2nd place $2,000. That might work better than adding just $500 for 3rd place. Once this contest takes off then we can look at beefing up things with a 3rd place league prize and higher overall prizes. Do you think that would help?

It's a risk to add $13,000+ in league prizes since we didn't top 300 teams last year, but I do believe strongly in this 12-team Main Event format and I'm willing to add to the league prizes if it will help us grow the NFBC XII. What's your thoughts on this final point?

ChiScottieBaseball wrote:Instead of farming out contests to Fanduel, why not have your own weekly contest on the NFBC website, either a daily contest or a weekly re-draft? I think this is easier to do for NFL games but it's worth a try in addition to the regular games isn't it?
-I think if you draft online, you shouldn't have to pay the live events fee if it is an online draft with all 12 or 15 teams...

Thanks!

Scott, sorry for the delayed response here. Thanks for the comments and the positive feedback.

You need volume, volume, volume and then more volume to run daily fantasy games. There are almost 2 dozen companies in that space now fighting for customers. It's a different mindset there and not one we want to compete in. We'll let other companies do that and work with someone we can trust to run games through them. We will, however, offer some side contests this year that will allow you to compete for weekly prizes in a different way. Stay tuned there.

The Events Fee for online teams is a tricky situation and one we've talked about often. First of all, if you play in multiple events you can get the Events Fee waived. But it's still there if you do just one Main Event Online. Now, is it fair for those owners to get charged a fee where there obviously aren't many additional costs and no food, beverage, amenities? Some would say no.

And our competitors have actually encouraged the online portion. One competitor in football this year gave $165 OFF if you drafted online rather than live. We are taking a different approach: We are trying to build the live events and there are huge costs for doing regional live drafts. The Events Fees don't come close to covering the costs of live events and thus everyone is helping us bring in new customers through the costs involved with running live regional events. We just don't feel it's right at this time to discount online members when we're trying to grow the contest through live events. Growth is the key and online owners hopefully will understand that there are costs involved in all of this.

By discounting online entries, our competitors are encouraging online over live. Maybe that's what folks want, but hopefully our goal to stay true to live events and have everyone help with the costs rather than raise the Events Fees to $100+ per team. We feel that's a better way to go. At least that's the way we're going now.

And for clarification: Our total amount received from Events Fees and co-manager fees covers a very small portion of our costs. The cost per team is $100+ in most cities and almost double that in New York City. There's a reason nobody else has ever offered a New York City venue because it's cost prohibitive. But we believe in the live events model as a great recruiting vehicle for our best customers and we believe it's important to be in the biggest city on the East Coast. And as long as participants play multiple games they won't have to worry about the added fees.

I hope that helps.

I haven't tried the NFBC XII for one reason..it is a very different game to be playing through the course of the season than a fifteen-team league. You are adding 90 free agents to the FA pool, and this is a completely different, much better, player pool that you suddenly have to keep track of on top of the free agent pool for your fifteen- man league. Last year I added slow draft leagues, this year it will be a fifteen-team auction championship or a second Classic Team. All these 15-team leagues have very similar FAAB pools during the year, making it simpler to manage multiple teams.

The price point.....the name....the prize structure....these are irrelevant to me. It is simply that I don't want the added work of another type of team to manage during the course of the year. It is the same reason I stay away from streaming leagues. I don't want to have to examine every single matchup all year long in order to be competitive. I have a life outside fantasy baseball and don't to get totally consumed by it throughout the season (pre draft is plenty).

I think maybe you might have to look outside the diehard fifteen-team players like me if you want to grow the NFBC XII to where it could be. Somehow you need to reach out and sell to the masses that play twelve-team leagues online how great it is to come play with the very best...live..in the greatest venue every for the biggest prize and biggest bragging rights in the business. I might be wrong, but one way to do that is to put in on a more equal footing with the entry fee and with the name. $1500 to play the "Classic 15" or the "Classic 12", using names Doughboy has suggested.

You are on the right track in promoting the live events. I'm not sure how you convey to the hundreds of thousands of fantasy players that play online what a rush it is to draft live in Vegas, Chicago, NYC, etc. Once you figure that out the 12 will likely grow much bigger than the 15 as there are so many more players familiar with that format to draw on.

I greatly encourage all owners who have not experienced a live draft to make an attempt to do so. I can't comment on the NY or Chicago venues, but the baseball drafts in Vegas are top notch. It will be an event that you look forward to each year. It's worth every penny of the live events fee and more. I could not attend a live draft this year, but had no problem paying the live events fee for online drafts with the understanding of what it takes to put together the live drafts. We are fortunate to have a great outlet to play this game. A short while ago, we were not sure if we would have such an opportunity. Having the events fee waived for multiple events is a great perk. If it's one or two events online, I look at it as a contribution to the growth and security of a safe and enjoyable place to continue our hobby.

With that said, my opinion on the NFBC 12 is to go with a heavier Top-2 prize. My feeling on third place prizes is that if they are to exist, it should return your entry fee. If it can not be accomplished, add those funds to the top 2.

Counting down to Vegas!

John

Cocktails and Dreams wrote:What about naming it the "Primetime"? It is a signature name that all of your football clients are familiar with. So they would automatically know it is a main event. And it also is 12 teams, similar to the primetime football contest.

... I was going to suggest this too before getting down to Chad's post. Either Primetime or just Prime (the MLB Channel has a series they call Prime where they discuss top position players). No one gets confused over how many teams are in the league in football, so I don't think that would be an issue in baseball. Baseball guys, if anything, are probably better at math.

* Definitely keep it to paying two spots. I wouldn't care about winning a token 3rd place prize in this league, and if you dilute the payout of the top two I'd lose interest.
* The $75k bonus is a main point of attraction for me.
* I like the $1000 entry; would't oppose a move to $1200, but I think you'll lose some entries at that price.

In response to Greg's requests for feedback.....

- I was never a big fan of the "XII" moniker. I thought it would be confusing when it was first suggested and still feel that way as because of the Super Bowl, roman numerals bring about visions of how many years the event's been in place rather than the amount of teams in each league. I think NFBC 12 would have been simpler and would have worked better, but the suggestion of Primetime would be fine as well.

- Keep the price point at a grand. Anything more and you may as well just do another Main Event, anything less and you may as well just play the Online Championships.

- I'd have to check, but I think I finished in 3rd in 3 of the 4 XII's I entered last year. So for last season, I regret agreeing with Magner on keeping the league payouts to top 2. Still, moving forward I think you have to keep the payouts there. If you want to grow the contest, adding a 3rd place won't help. The grand prize or beefed up league championship prizes is what attracts new signups. I also wouldn't bother upping the top league prize to $4,500.00. That carries no more pop than the current $4K payout. Bring it to $5K or just add everything into the overall prizes. You need numbers in the top league prize and/or the grand prize that catches the eye.

- Definitely on the $75K bonus. It's an eye catcher, even if extremely difficult to actually achieve.