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In my first bold drop of the year, I threw in the towel on Jesus Montero yesterday. I picked up Buck to fill the spot. I had seen enough but know full well this could be a very bad move. It will be interesting to see how much he goes for next week.

After watching the entire Tigers / Angels game in Anaheim yesterday a couple of early round draft picks are getting no respect whatsoever. Mike Scocia and Jim Leyland were falling all over themselves trying to get to VMart and Josh Hamilton with 2 outs. In the 9th inning after a blown call changed the course of the game, the Tigers had Tori Hunter on second with 2 outs. Socia proceeded to walk Cabrera and Fielder to get to Martinez with the bases loaded. In extra innings with 2 out and no one on, Leyland walked Pujols to get to Hamilton.

These two guys were 0 for 11 with 4 strikeouts. Its time they are both moved down the order. I'm very concerned about VMart, he looks awful. The extra innings cost me my opportunity to tweak my bids as the game lasted past the deadline. I thought I'd be back long before. I blame it on the horrific call in the 9th.

How crazy is it to give up on Montero this early? My Seattle buddy's hate him and that was good enough for me.

Joe:
"Patience (or forbearing) is the state of endurance under difficult circumstances, which can mean persevering in the face of delay or provocation without acting on annoyance/anger in a negative way; or exhibiting forbearance when under strain, especially when faced with longer-term difficulties. Patience is the level of endurance one can take before negativity. It is also used to refer to the character trait of being steadfast."


Dropping Montero this early is akin to complaining on the boards of not being able to access the Stats to a Doubleheader
game for your ROTO team at night when you know they will be available in the morning.

Unless Montero is hurt, he will eventually hit. My son and I were lucky enough to buy BUCK in both Auction for $1 each.
We did this with an eye on getting a bargain on McCann, Ruiz, or Grandal to replace him down the road. We were happy to have an incredible start, but I've cautioned my son that there will be payback in owning John Buck. We didn't chase him in FAAB because his best seemed to have already been posted. Heck, I sure hope he keeps hitting for you. But I'd hate to "Miss" both the best of Buck and the best ( yet to come ) for Montero. Good Luck, at least you got out of the cellar in the March Madness pool!

Thanks Ken, I couldn't believe I haven't been blasted further. I'm sure I may have sellers remorse and may throw a bid on Montero myself next week.

His slow start combined with the fact he's now being platooned and Zunio is right around the corner was enough for me. I got Buck cheap and hope he stays hot for a while. I too expect that will not continue. Catchers will come and go on the wire. I have Ruiz stashed on a number of teams as well (not this one). I simply think the Montero hype is just that, hype.

I've been wrong many times, this could be another one!!!

Sack wrote:

Dropping Montero this early is akin to complaining on the boards of not being able to access the Stats to a Doubleheader
game for your ROTO team at night when you know they will be available in the morning.

Sorry but that is crap. It is not asking too much at all for a problem that has been around in my 3 years of playing to be right and something that in a small way spoils the enjoyment on a night.

High stakes = high expectations and rightly so.

He just absolutely crushed his 1st HR of the young season....of course it was against Astro pitching so.....

still, I ain't dropping the Jesus in April. No way in hell

Money wrote:In my first bold drop of the year, I threw in the towel on Jesus Montero yesterday. I picked up Buck to fill the spot. I had seen enough but know full well this could be a very bad move. It will be interesting to see how much he goes for next week.

After watching the entire Tigers / Angels game in Anaheim yesterday a couple of early round draft picks are getting no respect whatsoever. Mike Scocia and Jim Leyland were falling all over themselves trying to get to VMart and Josh Hamilton with 2 outs. In the 9th inning after a blown call changed the course of the game, the Tigers had Tori Hunter on second with 2 outs. Socia proceeded to walk Cabrera and Fielder to get to Martinez with the bases loaded. In extra innings with 2 out and no one on, Leyland walked Pujols to get to Hamilton.

These two guys were 0 for 11 with 4 strikeouts. Its time they are both moved down the order. I'm very concerned about VMart, he looks awful. The extra innings cost me my opportunity to tweak my bids as the game lasted past the deadline. I thought I'd be back long before. I blame it on the horrific call in the 9th.

How crazy is it to give up on Montero this early? My Seattle buddy's hate him and that was good enough for me.

ooopppssss

Joe:

Sorry pal, I think you woke him up Buddy!


MattJB - My Doubleheader "shot" on the stats was me poking a little fun at my friend Joe Berg and his quest to help
improve the game we play. Notice he didn't get his pants in an uproar because he understood I was joking. I hope that
during the Doubleheaders tomorrow you get your stats on time. God forbid "Mr High Stakes ' has to wait until Wednesday
morning. I've paid a few BUCKS over the years myself, even managed a few high stakes events in my day. The Doubleheader'
issue never bothered me. I'm glad Joe's voice was heard, but it never really mattered much to me to have the instant
updates. Wait, one of my guys just got another hit - let me go check the OVERALL Standings to see where I moved up to
on April 22nd.


David Anthony - you are too fast for me my friend. We need to have the Georia Peach chill out with all those baserunners
that are scoring against his Starting Pitchers. Tell him he cut ties with Justin Masterson last season, so things will be ok.

Sack wrote: Wait, one of my guys just got another hit - let me go check the OVERALL Standings to see where I moved up to
on April 22nd.

That is part of the fun.

Sack wrote:

David Anthony - you are too fast for me my friend. We need to have the Georia Peach chill out with all those baserunners
that are scoring against his Starting Pitchers. Tell him he cut ties with Justin Masterson last season, so things will be ok.

Ken, I literally just switched over from the Phils game b/c I wanted to check on the King (used him in Fanduel tonight) when I saw the Jesus blast that tater. Even before that moonshot there's just no way, NO WAY I give up on a hitter of his potential in April.

Baseball is a marathon not a sprint.

When I posted this earlier this morning I wanted to hear a debate and criticism about the move. I checked in later and after 105 views no one had chimed in. Then my friend the Sack voices his opinion and his thoughts on the play. I loved hearing it and thought I'd hear much more. Ken, did it early.

As we play this game the inevitable home run was coming tonight. We then get the obligatory "What were you thinking posts". I'd have loved them before the fact, the after the fact stuff is just late.

One thing that I did come away with on this thread is that this is a marathon and for that advice I'm truly appreciative. I never thought that in the past and need to give it serious consideration. I always thought the guy leading in April would win 99% of the time

Live and learn.

Money wrote:When I posted this earlier this morning I wanted to hear a debate and criticism about the move. I checked in later and after 105 views no one had chimed in. Then my friend the Sack voices his opinion and his thoughts on the play. I loved hearing it and thought I'd hear much more. Ken, did it early.

As we play this game the inevitable home run was coming tonight. We then get the obligatory "What were you thinking posts". I'd have loved them before the fact, the after the fact stuff is just late.

One thing that I did come away with on this thread is that this is a marathon and for that advice I'm truly appreciative. I never thought that in the past and need to give it serious consideration. I always thought the guy leading in April would win 99% of the time

Live and learn.

It isn't a marathon, it's a series of 26 sprints! In marathons you'll get winded if you come out of the gate too fast, that's not the case in fantasy baseball - you're trying to win as many sprints as you can, which is why moves like these are made or considered.

I benched Montero for the first time all season, I would've last week if I had any options. I did give consideration to dropping him, but decided that it was a move of frustration and he needed some time on my bench to turn it around. He isn't a player I targeted, drafting him on only one team mainly because he showed life in the Spring and fell to a lower round in this particular league. Guys like that are tough if they struggle out of the gate if you weren't 100% sold on them when you drafted.

Tonight in one swing he delivered more HRs and 3x the RBI of his first three weeks. The best players to own are those that are either consistent, or hit when they should and whiff when they should. The pitcher that gives up 6 runs at San Diego then comes back to dominate at Coors, or vice versa for hitter's stats, are frustrating to manage and can ruin your season.

Money wrote:When I posted this earlier this morning I wanted to hear a debate and criticism about the move. I checked in later and after 105 views no one had chimed in. Then my friend the Sack voices his opinion and his thoughts on the play. I loved hearing it and thought I'd hear much more. Ken, did it early.

As we play this game the inevitable home run was coming tonight. We then get the obligatory "What were you thinking posts". I'd have loved them before the fact, the after the fact stuff is just late.

One thing that I did come away with on this thread is that this is a marathon and for that advice I'm truly appreciative. I never thought that in the past and need to give it serious consideration. I always thought the guy leading in April would win 99% of the time

Live and learn.

Since I'm on Pacific time I didn't see this til way past noon (3 pm EST) so I had no chance to "chime in" before Sack. Ken making a response had nothing to do w/ my comments. I think for myself. No disrespect to him, but I could give a shit what he (or anyone says). I disagree w/ Childs all the time and sometimes I'm right (Jose Lopez says hello ) I think it was a terrible move to give up in April on a player of his potential. Obviously both the Yanks & Mariners saw SOMETHING in him, as a hitter anyway. You shoulda put his ass on your bench if anything, although w/ the Astro pitching that would've been a mistake (as we've already seen).

Glad to hear you learned something. Now you can spend a bunch of your FAAB $ trying to get him back. Brilliant.

Joe, I'll chime in here. Sorry if it's a bit late, but it has nothing to do with last night's HR.

Going into the season, I personally had Montero rated somewhere towards the back of a large second tier of catchers slotted behind Posey. Though it was a larger tier than typical, I felt the drop off to the tier that followed was somewhat substantial. I also drafted Montero for a handful of teams including a Main so I can relate to your frustration.

I do feel the drop was too early. Believe me, dropping him was something that crossed my mind as well, as does dropping all of my underperforming players. That thought was quickly dismissed though, and that's because it's just too early. I think one of the biggest mistakes we can make in this game is to "overreact" to early season performances or trends, either positive or negative. In your move of dropping Montero for Buck, you reacted to both.

Just three weeks ago, you likely had Montero rated somewhere between 10 to 20 rounds above Buck. Such a limited sample size is way too small in my opinion to adjust your thought process that drastically. The reasons you had Montero rated that much higher is likely why most others did as well, ability and ceiling. Montero's was significantly higher in both regards and nothing has changed in either.

If the frustration in Montero's early season performance and especially his playing time usage by Wedge was too great, the move in my opinion would have been to pick up Buck, sit Montero for now, and to ride out Buck's hot streak for as long as it lasts. If it turned out that Buck's current hot streak was a new baseline of performance (possible considering he may be rejuvenated by being on such a great team ) or that Montero's usage becomes a season long issue, you could have dropped Montero later on when both became more apparant. In the meantime though, you would have had this high ceiling player stashed if the more likely opposite results come to bear.

Stashing a high ceiling player like Montero, especially at such a shallow position, would have been the far better move in my opinion than dropping him. It's why many are currently stashing catchers who likely have even lower ceilings for this season like McCann, Ruiz, Grandal, and even Zunino, Montero's heir apparant to the Mariners catching role.

I also think Wedge's "current" usage of Montero is not a reason to drop him. Young players are often "eased in" by their managers until their talent "forces" a greater more increased usage level. Just last year at this time, Kirk Gibson frustrated the Paul Goldschmidt owners by keeping him on the wrong side of a platoon with the immortal Lyle Overbay. Many likely considered dropping or benching Goldy at that time. However, like Montero versus Shoppach, Goldy was the far more talented player and as almost always is the case, talent won out.

Montero has the talent to flat out rake. There are also many paths to more consistent playing time as the season wears on for him to produce with that talent. After Zunino's hot start, he's starting to show he's not yet ready. Shoppach has already shown over the years, his talent level is as a backup catcher. Smoak sucks, Ibanez is old, Bay washed up, Guttierez, Morales, and Morse injury prone, Saunders injured. Montero will get his playing time and I believe will reward those patient enough to stick with him.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter. For my fantasy teams, I hope I'm right. For my Mets, I hope I'm wrong.

Good luck this year Bud and thanks for the thread. I enjoy these types of discussions.

PS - On the topic of live scoring and doubleheaders, I'll keep it much shorter... If something is promised and provided to a playing clientele, it should work correctly. I have no problem with that being both requested and expected.

Glenn,

Good stuff. I started the thread waiting for the criticism. I agree with most of what you've stated here. When in a 12 team league, difficult decisions are made each week. The better the team the tougher the decisions. Drops like this are what most of us love to pounce on and build on. I no longer see the upside in Montero, I have his ceiling at last season's numbers. A part of the decision came down to not wanting to roster a third catcher. Another part came with having VVMart on this team as well, who is off to a horrific start, so that compounded the frustration. This is a bold call, I new it when I made it. Time will tell.

I have bigger issues with FAAB. I continually end up with players I'd have rather dropped at the conclusion of the bidding process. I don't think through the end result enough when listing my drops, although I put in enough time. My situation was exasperated last Sunday by the Detroit / Anaheim game going 14 innings and surpassing the FAAB deadline. Anaheim Stadium sucks when it comes to using a phone during the games. I had to live with all of my morning decisions without benefit of the tweaking that I do each week at the 11th hour. The Montero drop would'nt have been affected by any late tweaking I don't believe.

One HR has not changed my opinion at this point. I made the move, I own it. At very least we should burn through a bit of FAAB money next weekend. There are some pretty accomplished players in this league that I'm sure are lining up for a crack at him.

Good Luck my friend, we're just getting started. Oh, and by the way, I have a friend that worked in that clinic in Miami. He has told me that John Buck's name is all over some yet unreleased private documents. The main part of this decision is based on him not getting caught this season

I'm a Mariner fan and watch a lot of their games. like your Seattle buddies, I can't help but notice big differences in Montero's game this year.

First, he looks totally lost against lefthanders, and these are the pitchers he usually manhandles. Second, there seems to be something different about his physicality, for lack of a better word. His bat doesn't seem quite as quick.

The causes may be multiple. First, many of the young Mariner hitters are struggling under the tutelage of the new batting coach Dave Hanson. Secondly, I suppose it's possible that Jesus has stopped taking PEDs in the wake of being connected to Biogenisis earlier this year.

So, aside from crushing a batting-practice home run against Peacock last night, Jesus looks totally lost. He will continue to get opps as Zunino is not ready and Shoppach's success will be short lived. it's hard to predict how things will unfold, but if what you are saying is true about Buck, it's worth a shot going in that direction.

Are there any other names on that list you are willing to share?

I think it is a bold move, Joe. And I fully understand your reasoning. This is a 12 team league, no?
Through Roger Martin, I am only involved in one 12 teamer this year, but seeing the availability on the wire of catchers like Buck, Hundley, Gattis, Mesoraco, and others cushions the blow.
I don't know the strength of your team or who you have benched, but I could understand the trimming of Montero. He runs hot and cold, like other players. And when having a bunch of cold players at one time, we're trying to give ourselves hope.
And hope springs eternal through FAAB.

Seattle isn't a franchise that likes to hurry their kids up to the Majors, so I am in the camp that believes Zunino won't get a possible shot to see the Bigs till September. With that, Montero will get hot again and get a lion's share of playing time over the duration of the season. There will be times that you'll regret kicking him to the curb, when he gets hot, which may or may not have started last night.
At the same time, it is not like this happened in a 15 teamer where the best FAAB replacement is not John Buck, but McKenry, Navarro, or Hanigan.

Money wrote: When in a 12 team league, difficult decisions are made each week.

I had neglected to realize that this move was done in a "minor league".

All kidding aside, I know the tendency is to consider this a more acceptable move in a XII or an Online Championships due to the greater availability of "talent" on the waiver wire than in a 15-teamer. I tend to disagree however.

Though there is more "replacement level" talent available, I think that it makes it all the more important to create edges with higher ceiling players where possible. Since noone will have "holes" per say as almost every team might have somewhere in a Main Event, edges can't be created by having more depth or balance than another team.

With the added difficulty of seperating yourself from the pack in a league where all teams seem to have All-Star rosters, creating and maintaining edges is the difference maker. Montero has the "ability" to create a season long edge, I don't believe Buck does.

Of course Joe, my 12-theory may be wrong. You're obviously much better in this format than I'll ever be.

Glenn,

The greater edge might be gained with Buck if he is using PEDs. Joe might have been joking about his friend in Miami, but the circumstantial evidence is there. Buck is in a contract year, and this is likely his last chance at a big payday. He played in Miami last year, and is a client of ACES. And his performance so far this year is unworldly..

Glenneration X wrote:

Money wrote: When in a 12 team league, difficult decisions are made each week.

Of course Joe, my 12-theory may be wrong. You're obviously much better in this format than I'll ever be.

Right when I'm buying into your argument, you come up with this gem. You have forgotten more about this hobby than I'll ever know. You will be right there at the end in the NFBC XII this year.

Note to self (one of yours) Lowy full of BS sometimes

And on the everyone has an all star team note, I must be doing something wrong because I have holes everywhere

In one of my 12 team OC leagues these are the catchers that are available right now
Iannetta, Chris (LAA) 202 92.6% 88.6% 51 .275 9 2 8 0 Place Bid
Flowers, Tyler (CHW) 231 87.9% 74.5% 49 .224 6 3 7 0 Place Bid
Suzuki, Kurt (WAS) 282 45.0% 40.3% 37 .243 5 2 5 1 Place Bid
Saltalamacchia, Jarrod (BOS) 300 98.0% 96.0% 52 .212 7 3 6 0 Place Bid
Norris, Derek (OAK) 326 21.5% 17.4% 31 .323 9 0 4 1 Place Bid
Hundley, Nick (SD) 335 47.7% 44.3% 54 .296 6 1 5 0 Place Bid
McKenry, Michael (PIT) 451 2.0% 1.3% 14 .357 3 2 4 0 Place Bid
Castro, Jason (HOU)

Joe, at least you weren't alone in your impatience this week. Jesus Montero was dropped in two NFBC Online Championship Leagues this week as well and he was dropped in 2 NFBC Satellite Leagues. So five owners got impatient and dropped him this week. Kind of crazy, but all were in 12-team leagues.

Greg Ambrosius wrote:Joe, at least you weren't alone in your impatience this week. Jesus Montero was dropped in two NFBC Online Championship Leagues this week as well and he was dropped in 2 NFBC Satellite Leagues. So five owners got impatient and dropped him this week. Kind of crazy, but all were in 12-team leagues.

Good info Greg. I put in a bid of 39 on Buck dropping Montero. I finally bought into his hot start and knew I wasn't happy long term with Montero. So I put the bid in dropping Montero only if I won the Buck bid. In hindsight maybe I should've put buck at the bottom of a few of my other lists. I was outbid on all of my 6 selections in my first list, hence I'm stuck for anther week with Matt Harrison on my bench. Had I done things properly Montero would reside on my bench. Either way he wouldn't have been in my lineup yesterday.

The runner up bid was 33 if that bid was 40, I still have Montero. FAAB has a way of working itself out in the long run. I'm perfectly fine with my decision and look forward to how it plays out. The team in question is way over achieving at this point and will need some dramatic help.

Greg Ambrosius wrote:Joe, at least you weren't alone in your impatience this week. Jesus Montero was dropped in two NFBC Online Championship Leagues this week as well and he was dropped in 2 NFBC Satellite Leagues. So five owners got impatient and dropped him this week. Kind of crazy, but all were in 12-team leagues.

Actually, we don't know whether they were impatient or not. This could have been an astute move to dump him early. We THINK we know how this will turn out, and chances are that Montero will improve. But still, in a 12 team league, the drop may not be bad, at all, in the long run.

Greg Ambrosius wrote:Joe, at least you weren't alone in your impatience this week. Jesus Montero was dropped in two NFBC Online Championship Leagues this week as well and he was dropped in 2 NFBC Satellite Leagues. So five owners got impatient and dropped him this week. Kind of crazy, but all were in 12-team leagues.

Let us know when he gets dropped in the major leagues aka Main event

I should've realized Joe was referring to a 12 tm lge when he said he just made the move last Sunday. After wk 1 there is NO WAY he'd been able to pick up Buck in any 15 tm lge. I have Miggy Montero, who is hitting even worse than the Jesus, but I ain't dropping him in April (hell I can't envision dropping him ever unless he has some kind of season-ending injury).

Bottom line is there is a BIG difference b/w 12 & 15 tm lge's. I wish I'd known immediately you were talking about 12 tm'er b/c despite your asking for opinions I'd have refrained from giving mine. I just don't know enough about that format. I do know if I drafted a catcher named Montero I ain't dropping him 3 wks into the season in the Main. Johnny Buck is LONG GONE

And now we know for sure, excellent drop Joe.

I finally dumped him in the main event last weekend, and he should make the #1 drop this weekend.

Meanwhile, Buck keeps hitting.