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I didn't pick too many good players this year but this was one item I was correct with.....Braun was caught once and escaped through a loophole..... MLB wants this stuff stopped and the news that Bosch is cooperating is bad news indeed for the game's cheaters.......

TOXIC ASSETS wrote:I didn't pick too many good players this year but this was one item I was correct with.....Braun was caught once and escaped through a loophole..... MLB wants this stuff stopped and the news that Bosch is cooperating is bad news indeed for the game's cheaters.......

Computer Forensics, USB drives - (most people don't know that Data can never be just deleted) , phone records, bank accounts, written notes, A Cooperating Players Association/Union, a majority of clean players exerting pressure, singing birds, a pissed off Selig and MLB figure heads, immunity, spending big money, Keeping the Feds and the idiots in Congress at bay, all seem to amount to a lot of hard proof coming shortly.... Cocktails, HGH, Roids, and Greenies... not to mention other clinics possibly involved... There will be no All star MVP getting suspended this year...right after whoever wins the award, wins it...

An announcer said the other night on a game, he thinks the injuries are because of no more amphetamines, wish I could remember his name, but he was matter of fact in saying it and the broadcast partner did not comment, I think it was the Yankee game.... and may have been Kruk or Orel... MLB and the Union did agree and start the new enhanced testing for everything in Oct of 2011. The whole Braun Debacle left MLB feeling they were going to need more when they went full bore after these clinics in the spring of 2012.

Watch the news for what player attorneys get out in front of this story now in the next few days, silence will indeed not be golden.. IMO this is an intentional leak too by MLB, soften the blow, make some others think/cooperate, etc....

Hate to say it as a yankee fan, but me thinks Cano is in play on this...

It's amazing how some of important offensive categories/stats have been declining since the beginning of the 2012 season and how many injuries there are these past 1 1/2 seasons... coincidence, maybe/maybe not....
However it turns out, in the end it will be good for the game... and that is what should matter...

Outlaw wrote: a majority of clean players exerting pressure

Do you think *most* players are clean, or
Most of the clean guys (who are perhaps a minority of MLB players) are exerting pressure?

I've been under the impression since about 1995 (old enough to know better) that *MOST* MLBers are "cheating." I'm curious because you seem to the point man around here on this topic.

My position is that at least 75% of MLB players are on PEDs.

Funny this comes out about 1/2 hr ago....


AN FRANCISCO -- Melky Cabrera wants everyone to know just how sorry he is. Sorry for cheating. Sorry for lying. Sorry for letting down the San Francisco Giants and their supportive city.

Cabrera returned to AT&T Park with Toronto on Tuesday night for the first time since receiving a 50-game suspension last Aug. 15 following a positive testosterone test.

Calling last season's penalty "an ugly time for me and my family," Cabrera says he regrets using a performance-enhancing drug and missing out on winning the World Series with the Giants. San Francisco didn't add him to the postseason roster once he was eligible for the NL championship series.

Cabrera, the 2012 All-Star game MVP who had 51 hits in May, received his World Series ring when the Giants visited Toronto last month.

EWeaver wrote:

Outlaw wrote: a majority of clean players exerting pressure

Do you think *most* players are clean, or
Most of the clean guys (who are perhaps a minority of MLB players) are exerting pressure?

I've been under the impression since about 1995 (old enough to know better) that *MOST* MLBers are "cheating." I'm curious because you seem to the point man around here on this topic.

My position is that at least 75% of MLB players are on PEDs.

Greeneis were around forever since the 40's and Roids and the new stuff since the late 80's... when the SHTF back in 04/05 and 06 I heard there may have been upwards of 400-500 MLB players using... Its well known that there is list of around 100-120 players from the early 2000's the MLB knows tested positive, but they had no means or agreeement to discipline them at the time. That is why every so often one of the names comes out.. I think the numbers went way down up until end of 2011 season and furthur declined with the new testing that went into effect in the Fall of 2011. I would suspect these days there is less than a handful doing anything at this time, but only until the next new thing comes down and they havent figured out a test for. I do think with this latest mess MLB with ageee with the Union for some form of 1-2 season suspension if not lifetime bans, that has always been there goal since the early 2000's.

Hopefully they come down hard and end this crap. It's hard enough to handicap this game without having to figure out who's using and who isn't.

Outlaw wrote:Funny this comes out about 1/2 hr ago....


AN FRANCISCO -- Melky Cabrera wants everyone to know just how sorry he is. Sorry for cheating. Sorry for lying. Sorry for letting down the San Francisco Giants and their supportive city.

Cabrera returned to AT&T Park with Toronto on Tuesday night for the first time since receiving a 50-game suspension last Aug. 15 following a positive testosterone test.

Calling last season's penalty "an ugly time for me and my family," Cabrera says he regrets using a performance-enhancing drug and missing out on winning the World Series with the Giants. San Francisco didn't add him to the postseason roster once he was eligible for the NL championship series.

Cabrera, the 2012 All-Star game MVP who had 51 hits in May, received his World Series ring when the Giants visited Toronto last month.

Yeah; i doubt his 75 million dollar PED salary was ugly. Do you really think he cares, or is it just so he gets a new contract?

Money wrote:Hopefully they come down hard and end this crap. It's hard enough to handicap this game without having to figure out who's using and who isn't.

LOL.....yeah; i guess if they would tell us who was using and who is not before the season it would be a slight bit easier to cap.

I'd be in shock if they actually suspend 20 players and someone like Braun for 100 games. I won't hold my breathe. Don't expect it to be a kaboom!

With all the injuries this year plus these possible impending suspensions, Now more than ever the luck factor will determine who wins a fantasy championship this year . rosters and FA bidding are going to be whack soon

For most of the alleged PED users, it will be months before a resolution. Braun, for one, is not going to go down easily. He is facing 100 games, so it could be a long battle. Others may choose to take their suspension and get it out of the way. I just have a feeling most of these guys will fight it out because of the lack of real evidence... other than a guy trying to save his own ass.

These are the same feelings we all had at the beginning of the season.. it was likely to be revealed that these guys did use PEDs, but with the lack of actual failed tests, it will take a long time to actually get a suspension accepted by the Players Union. Still don't think it affects most of these guys for a while.

Possible other BIG name players involved, some shocking too.... not just Arod and Bruan. Seems a lot of players may also just accept thier suspensions... MLB is hoping some will appeal too... for obvious reasons...

Hearing it possibly will be 2-3 weeks before the hammer starts coming down...but before the All Star break.. Seems the 3 ESPN reporters are pretty confident in what they know too.... also hearing a bunch of new players and past players linked have recent failed PEDS tests too... I got my own ideas on who, but not saying anything until if and when MLB does, to be fair to those players. All I'll say is look at the production of the "bigger stars" this year, as well as thier physical bodies, seems quite a few players have gotten smaller...at least to me...

and Puig goes yard twice- Kaboom on the FAAB this week

BK METS wrote:For most of the alleged PED users, it will be months before a resolution. Braun, for one, is not going to go down easily. He is facing 100 games, so it could be a long battle. Others may choose to take their suspension and get it out of the way. I just have a feeling most of these guys will fight it out because of the lack of real evidence... other than a guy trying to save his own ass.

These are the same feelings we all had at the beginning of the season.. it was likely to be revealed that these guys did use PEDs, but with the lack of actual failed tests, it will take a long time to actually get a suspension accepted by the Players Union. Still don't think it affects most of these guys for a while.

Read the agreements in fall of 2011 and Jan of 2013 between the Union and MLB. They dont need a failed PED test as the only reason to suspend. The Jan 2013 agreement was the result of quite a few failed drug tests during the 2012 season that could not be used because certain testing methods, protocols and how suspension could be handed down, that were not agreed to in the 2011 agreement. The 2013 agreement was also to tighten up rules/language as a result of the Braun debacle. that is why some of the named players might be staring at 100 games based on todays news. MLB has been aware of this PEDS problem for three years, most of the players involved and the private enterprises and clinics involved.

It’s interesting the reactions this PEDS mess is getting from reporters, bloggers and news only web sites. People making comments and writing things that are just flat wrong or without checking their facts. A lot of them saying that the Players Union will go to the courts and stuff and that there will be a huge legal war. I checked the current CBA and the collective bargaining agreement leaves little room for legal attacks in the courts by either side, outside of the process created by the CBA itself. MLB considered going to court after the arbitrator in the Braun case issued his ruling, but in effect, its legal counsel said they could not and would not prevail as outlined and agreed to in the CBA.

Everything that I have seen and you can go back a few years is that Union leadership was under tremendous pressure from the current players to get the game cleaned up from this PEDS stuff once and for all. It seems the a lot the current players not involved in this latest PEDS mess and playing now, are speaking out the past few days making sure the Union gets the message too. The list of HOF greats, players, announcers grows by the day and the Message is clear, Clean it up and clean it up NOW and Come down hard on these players if they have done something wrong.

So if any of the BioGen stuff is true, these players that might be involved have the arbitration process and that appears to be it, to state their case. Of course some could ignore the CBA and go the court route, but odds would be stacked against them legally it appears. I just hope MLB does not exceed its powers or the right of fairness to any player, because it sure does look like they have played this all out pretty well the past 2-3 years.

I got a text last night from someone, that said Carrillo might be cooperating and lifetime bans and indefinite suspensions are being considered for those potentially involved. So I looked into Carrillo this morning, and he's the player suspended for 100 games 2 months ago for buying PEDS from Biogenisis. I just saw that Carrillo was Ryan Braun's college roommate for 3 years at U of Miami. Seems no one in the media is really making that connection the past few days or just ignoring it.

I read a little more on Braun's legal team’s involvement with Tony B. One can make the case they were the cover story for Braun's name on the documents and payments from Braun buying PEDS.

Bruans Statement: "During the course of preparing for my successful appeal last year, my attorneys, who were previously familiar with Tony Bosch, used him as a consultant. More specifically, he answered questions about T/E ratio and possibilities of tampering with samples. There was a dispute over compensation for Bosch’s work, which is why my lawyer and I are listed under ‘moneys owed’ and not on any other list. I have nothing to hide and have never had any other relationship with Bosch. I will fully cooperate with any inquiry into this matter."

It also appears that Braun may have known Tony B while at the U of Miami in and around 05/06, which would conflict with him saying he never met him. As any good lawyer will ask his client, have you told me everything, I can see Braun telling his attorney's I had some interaction with a wellness clinic in Florida, but only for legal approved products. The Clinic however has been involved in some shady stuff involving PEDS it seems and it might cause concern if it’s found I did some business with that clinic. So the Attorneys make the call and pay or agree to pay the clinic upwards of $30,000.00 for consulting services (a phone call? please). Two things are apparent, Braun probably never told his legal team he Did PEDS, but probably being fairly smart attorneys they should have concluded he did. He got his attorneys to cover his connection to the Clinic with the phone call to Bosch for consulting services and the attorneys feel good because they are not part of the lie. This is a keystone cops cover story, it doesn’t pass any smell test.

It is interesting the attorneys only comment to date has been this and it directly conflicts with Brauns statement:

Braun's attorney, David Cornwell, has chimed in on the scandal linking his client to the Miami PED clinic. His comments, per the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
"In the 15 years that I have represented players facing discipline under the various professional sports leagues' substance abuse and steroid programs, I have relied primarily, if not exclusively, on Dr. David L. Black and his team of scientists at Aegis Sciences Corporation in Nashville, TN as my experts with respect to scientific and other matters relevant to the testing of player specimens. "I was not familiar with Tony Bosch prior to Ryan Braun's case. Bosch was introduced to me at the earliest stage of Ryan's case. "I found Bosch's value to be negligible and I followed my prior practice of relying on Aegis in the preparation of Ryan's winning defense."

Braun’s other Attorneys and Cornwell, since have never made another comment since this story broke and in fact have no commented a few times.

Here is the big problem Braun has based on the only 2 Statements Braun and his attorneys have ever made on the Clinic and why his name appears on records. Braun has said he never knew this clinic or Bosch. He said his name appeared on clinic records because his attorney knew Bosch and were familiar with him. His attorneys say a week later they were not familiar with Bosch prior to Braun's case. So who is telling the truth? Sure seems the attorneys weasel worded their statement to cover themselves. Maybe Braun told his attorney's his friend Carrillo told him his (Braun's) name might be on Clinic records and his attorney should check them out. If there is proof Braun knew Bosch prior to engaging his attorneys and his appeal process, he’s guilty of cheating and lying and using! His attorney’s statement basically gave him up. He had better hope that Carrillo is not cooperating and that proof does not emerge of his possible connection to the Clinic and Bosch before he was suspended, other than his attorney contacting them.

Braun is in Deep S..t IMO... If faced with evidence showing he lied and given the choice of take a 100 Game suspension with no appeal or risk a lifetime or indefinite suspension if you lose your appeal, which one will he take? I say he takes the 100 games and begs forgiveness just like all the other previous sports heroes who have lied and denied and then come clean. Braun could also take the advice of coming clean and trying to be the white horse that helped rid the game of this stuff once and for all. He has choices to make, if he did anything wrong.

Yesterday I asked my son and a friend of his, both who played college ball, what do you think of PED scandal and they both said "they all do it and it doesn't matter anymore, they will never stop them from doing it" I asked them do you care and they said not really, not much they can do it about it. They both said they hope Arod is banned.

I read the following excerpts this morning in the OC Register:
"How about you? Do you care about steroids in baseball anymore? Do you care about HGH or testosterone or any of the dope, particularly if the dope is helping your team win? In case you haven’t noticed, the teams don’t care. If the A’s cared, they wouldn’t have re-signed convicted cheat Bartolo Colon. If the Blue Jays cared, they wouldn’t have added Melky Cabrera and his rap sheet.
There seem to be three types of fans left who do care: 1) Older ones; 2) Those who still consider Roger Maris and the number 61 to be sacred; and 3) Bob Costas. I used to care. But then I also used to believe in things like Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods and Santa Claus. When the truth is revealed exposing life as a lie, it’s pretty difficult to go back and recapture what really has been lost. This Biogenesis case could turn out to be the biggest drug bust in the history of sports. It has been suggested that Rodriguez and Braun won’t be the only major names connected to the former clinic."
Rumors abound there is an even bigger name that is going to shock the baseball world too.

Just a reaction from an 'older one'.
When baseball was still in its infancy, gambling was rampant. It was the thing to do in America.
Before baseball and the coming of Babe Ruth and the 'live ball', the two most popular sports and most attended sports in America were......any guesses?
They were boxing and horse racing. Bets were freely made on both. Some jockey's 'laid back'. Some boxers 'took a dive'.
Baseball also was a 'bettable' sport. Many fans would make bets while watching games. And some players would also join in.
When baseball became organized at the turn of the 20th century, the organizers wanted to make baseball a 'gentleman's game' and gambling was made illegal.

But, like we knew then, and know now, making something illegal does not stop any practice. Players such as Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and many, many other players continued gambling. The 1919 World Series, featuring the so-called 'Black Sox' was certainly not the only World Series affected by gambling. They were however, the first to get caught.
Now, we know that eight men were suspended from baseball for life from a Commisioner who was looking to 'make his mark'.
The ruling was deemed questionable by some and especially by the writer of this post. But, that's of little consequence for this post. The point is that eight men were thrown out of baseball. Before those eight men were thrown out of baseball, they were acquitted in court. At the time, with no players union, and no lawyers to protect these players, the Commisioner had more power over these players future than a jury.
He banned them from baseball with this less than lawyerese verdict-

'Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ball game, no player who undertakes or promises to throw a ball game, no player who sits in confidence with a bunch of crooked ballplayers and gamblers, where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball.'

Before the banning of these eight players, most people thought that gambling would always be a part of baseball. Fans thought, 'everybody does it'.
And whether fair or not to these eight men, gambling as a rampant problem in baseball was virtually erased. I know there have been brush fires in the name of Pete Rose and a couple of others, but when we say the word 'gambling' now, baseball does not come to mind as it did 100 years ago.

But, when we say the phrase, 'PED's', baseball does come to mind.
Hopefully baseball will be more fair to today's rule breakers. At the same time, without the threat of losing their livlihood, as those eight players from 1919 did, the problem will not be stopped. The lure of making ARod or Braun type money is paramount over losing just 50 games or even 100 games.
And until losing that livlihood as those eight players did, becomes a real possibility for current players, we will go on saying, 'they all do it' or 'there is nothing we can do about it'.

What a great read!! My opinion, short and sweet; use the Olympic guidelines, first offense, 2 years, second offense, LIFETIME BAN!!!! That will clean up the game!!!

Outlaw wrote: There seem to be three types of fans left who do care: 1) Older ones; 2) Those who still consider Roger Maris and the number 61 to be sacred; and 3) Bob Costas. I used to care. But then I also used to believe in things like Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods and Santa Claus. When the truth is revealed exposing life as a lie, it’s pretty difficult to go back and recapture what really has been lost. This Biogenesis case could turn out to be the biggest drug bust in the history of sports. It has been suggested that Rodriguez and Braun won’t be the only major names connected to the former clinic."
Rumors abound there is an even bigger name that is going to shock the baseball world too.

I appreciate all of the work you are putting into this issue Outlaw, thanks for the info...a little long winded, but it's your thoughts and I respect that. But tell me why you would throw Tiger Woods into the things you used to believe in? If you lose hope in every athlete that cheats on their wife then you will be truly hopeless my friend. Just like Pete Rose has no business being brought up in this topic, neither does Tiger. Stick to the actual athletes using PED's, not gambling junkies or people picking up waitresses at Perkins.

Hi Cobb- that quote was from a reporter By the name of Jeff Miller of The Orange County Register. He was asking the question does anyone care anymore and is there no shock and outrage left anymore by the fan? But in terms of Tiger we all thought he was the greatest, then the rumors of HGH, Steroids came out on him followed shortly by all his other personal lies and vices. He escaped the Golf Gods PEDS scrutiny, because he is the golden goose for the PGA. A good article here on Tiger:

http://mindfulgolfer.com/2013/01/28/sex ... ger-woods/

I don't let anyone's personal life cloud my judgments nor is it my desire to let it affect me or what I think of them as an athlete. But I don't respect people who lie to anyone, including thier wives. But Peds, cheating in sports, yeah I have an opinion of anyone involved in that. Without us the fan, the games do not exist and the Millions $$$ would not be there to be made by the players. As for baseball - we should care... and Hope it gets cleaned up. The last 20 years have taught us that all the records are lies, the big stars are frauds... that is the reality.

For fans who like fantasy, we have been playing that game too never knowing who is juicing/cheating and why some players come out of no where to hit 45 after never showing they were capable. All the data, Stats, analytics, opinions, gut feelings mean nothing in fantasy if we don't know who is cheating or we know cheating and PEDS is going on but we dont know who. I could name very good players just in the past 5 years who if you looked at thier pyhsical body types and shapes and saw how they "grew" and then now seem to have "shrunk" and conclude maybe they did or are doing PEDS too, but I have no way knowing. I look at the old players like Mays, Banks, Mantle, Aaron, Feller, Koufax, Palmer, Seaver and on and on and I cannot come up with pictures that show they change much over their whole career, maybe a little fatter, pudgy, softer, but that's it.

Gambling in MLB was rampant leading up to the Black Sox scandal, some say since the Games inception. MLB decided it needed to take a stand, rightly or wrongly. The 8 players who were suspended for life, even though found not guilty in the courtroom, happened to be involved with some seedy characters at best, just like this BioGen mess. Maybe not all, but some, and MLB acted. The effect has been for 93 years there has been no gambling in MLB, a least none anyone knows about other than Pete Rose. And his was not even betting or hurting the game as we understand it. He was betting on his team to win. But Yet Pete paid the ultimate price too for the one instance that had the word gambling in it. He does belong in the HOF IMO. If Some lifetime bans come out of this latest PEDS episode, it very well may have the same effect as lifetime bans for Gambling.

The more I think about, first offense for using PEDs- Lifetime ban! End of problem for the most part forever., except for idiots. In the digital and medical age these days you will not get away with it.

[quote="Outlaw"] I got a text last night from someone, that said Carrillo might be cooperating and lifetime bans and indefinite suspensions are being considered for those potentially involved. So I looked into Carrillo this morning, and he's the player suspended for 100 games 2 months ago for buying PEDS from Biogenisis. I just saw that Carrillo was Ryan Braun's college roommate for 3 years at U of Miami. Seems no one in the media is really making that connection the past few days or just ignoring it.


Here is the big problem Braun has based on the only 2 Statements Braun and his attorneys have ever made on the Clinic and why his name appears on records. Braun has said he never knew this clinic or Bosch. He said his name appeared on clinic records because his attorney knew Bosch and were familiar with him. His attorneys say a week later they were not familiar with Bosch prior to Braun's case. So who is telling the truth? Sure seems the attorneys weasel worded their statement to cover themselves. Maybe Braun told his attorney's his friend Carrillo told him his (Braun's) name might be on Clinic records and his attorney should check them out. If there is proof Braun knew Bosch prior to engaging his attorneys and his appeal process, he’s guilty of cheating and lying and using! His attorney’s statement basically gave him up. He had better hope that Carrillo is not cooperating and that proof does not emerge of his possible connection to the Clinic and Bosch before he was suspended, other than his attorney contacting them.



The other day I heard Carrillo may be cooperating and then this is breaking tonight.... also appears there may be more than 100 players involved now... Tony B is singing like bird...whether anyone wants to believe him or not, it will be hard for anyone to start saying players too are lying now... the potential offer of immunity for MLB players has been speculated for over a month now and Now doubt will be on the table for MLB players who tell why they associated with this or any clinic. The guys who may have did anything and try to deny, better think twice...

Breaking tonight:
Jeff Passan Yahoo! Expert....MLB using testimony from minor leaguers to condemn players with Biogenesis ties

......While major league players implicated in the Biogenesis scandal have yet to provide substantive information to Major League Baseball, multiple minor leaguers have discussed in detail their transactions with Anthony Bosch's clinic that allegedly provided performance-enhancing drugs to dozens of players, sources with knowledge of the interviews told Yahoo! Sports.
Alex Rodriguez is one of several MLB stars that could be done in by minor leaguer testimonies. (AP)

Under threat of suspension, the minor league players gave testimony that Major League Baseball plans to use to confirm the veracity of Bosch's story, the sources said. The league last week cut a deal with Bosch, the proprietor of the so-called wellness clinic, to drop a lawsuit against him, provide him with protection and try to sway the government from prosecuting him in exchange for his detailing players' involvement with Biogenesis.

The revelation that multiple minor league players used Biogenesis products confirms a long-held belief that immunity could be an option for major leaguers and that the list of players who sought out Bosch exceeds the 20 or so publicly named from his logbook. One source said: "There are others who went there. Big names. I don't know if they're in the notes, but if Tony tells the whole story, they'll be in there."

Minor leaguers' reasons for talking with MLB were obvious: Players not on a team's 40-man roster are not protected by the MLB Players Association and thus are subject to discipline at the league's whims. The suspension of alleged Biogenesis client Cesar Carrillo for 100 games – 50 for a non-analytical positive after his name was found in Bosch's logbook, 50 for lying to the league – spooked players enough that they were compelled to describe their interactions with Biogenesis.

Corroborating any of Bosch's testimony would be a win for MLB, which is seeking suspensions for Ryan Braun and Alex Rodriguez, among others. The credibility of Bosch – he allegedly provided the PEDs to players, is not a doctor and was reported by the New York Daily News to have asked Rodriguez to pay him off for his silence – is one of MLB's greatest hurdles in potentially disciplining players.

So is getting major leaguers to cooperate. Lawyers for the MLBPA and players' counsel have agreed that, at this point in the investigation, staying mum is the best course of action, sources said. The league has informally spoken with players, waiting for more of its investigation to crystallize before approaching those whom it wants to discipline.

"Players aren't going to say anything – until they know what [Bosch] said," one source with knowledge of the players' plan said. "There's nothing to be gained from talking now. As long as they don't say anything, they're not lying."

The trickiest part for the union is maintaining solidarity among a group that could fracture if the league offers immunity in exchange for cooperation, as it did with the minor leaguers. Union lawyers have been present at the meetings thus far and will continue to be after the league finishes its interrogation of Bosch, which is expected to end in the coming days.

When it rains it pours. Ryan Braun may need a full month or more to heal his thumb. Braun was placed on the disabled list June 9 with a nerve issue in his right thumb. He is eligible for activation next Tuesday but isn't close to being ready. Braun received a second opinion on his injured thumb Tuesday, and though his diagnosis hasn't changed, it was recommended that he rest for a couple more weeks to ease the strain on his thumb and give it more time to heal. It's not clear exactly how much time Bruan will miss because the Brewers have not released a target date for his return, but it looks like he could miss a lot more time than originally expected. Roto Snipes

Could there be another reason he will be off so long? Just saying.

Seems Jimmy Goins (Strength and Conditioning coach for 9 years for the baseball and track teams) was fired by the University of Miami recently after they concluded their investigation into his possible involvement with Biogenisis and Tony B and possible PEDS distribution. He filed a lawsuit against the University, Biogenisis and various news organizations the other day for printing his medical records???, the ones contained in the BioGen documents. Seems he was/is looking for a deal from MLB also. Amazing how people are willing to cooperate for money and or some sort of legal protection... however it does not mean they are not telling the truth either. Seems he filed his lawsuit a few days after Tony B and others were cutting deals with MLB.

IMO Ryan Braun better hope that both Goins and Cabrillo aren't possibly spilling the beans on how the PEDS may have been supplied to any player. I'm hearing this Trifecta goes back quite a few years and MLB and U of M were on to them back in the fall of 2011, right before Brauns Failed PEDS test was administered, that he ultimately was cleared on.

It's amazing the twists and turns in this whole MLB PEDS investigation and all the characters and possible cover-ups playing out.

Bottom line, most Fans and clean players want this to end and they want this investigation/scandal to be the thing that ends PEDS use once and for all, at least in MLB.

GOINS, JAMES vs BIOGENESIS OF AMERICA (LLC)
Case Number (LOCAL): 2013-20306-CA-01 Filing Date: 06/07/2013
Case Number (STATE): 13-2013-CA-020306-0000-01 CaseType: 3
Consolidated Case Number: N/A Judicial Section: 42

Party Code Party Name
PN 01 GOINS, JAMES
DN 01 BIOGENESIS OF AMERICA (LLC)
DN 02 BOSCH, ANTHONY P
DN 03 BOSCH, PEDRO (DR)
DN 04 MIAMI NEW TIMES (LLC)
DN 05 MIAMI HERALD MEDIA CO
DN 06 UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI
DN 07 NEW YORK TIMES CO

AROD and Bruan are going to get indefinate suspensions, IMO.

Major League Baseball players are furious at Ryan Braun and they want him out of the sport according to Buster Olney of ESPN.

Olney was a guest on ESPN Radio's "SVP and Russillo" show when he was asked about how other players feel about the possibility of Ryan Braun being suspended 100 games for his tie to the Biogenesis clinic and performance-enhancing drugs:

"They want him taken down if in fact there is evidence he used PEDs. The players have a strong sentiment about that. They want him taken down so badly. Every clubhouse I go into, players are asking me about him. They were furious after he won his appeal because they thought it was ridiculous based on the information they had gotten. Players were appalled about the way that he talked about the collector...They look at him as a guy that has been a disgrace to the sport. And if in fact the evidence backs up what seems to be alleged here, they want him out of the sport."

One thing most players can count on when they are busted for PEDs is that the players' union will back them up. But it appears that Braun has gone too far and now his fellow players have had enough.

Now, if indeed Braun is suspended after the all-star break as is expected, he will need the help of the union to appeal his suspension. It sounds like that could be a dicey situation for both sides and it will be interesting to see if Braun has to lean on his own lawyers more than most players

This is all well and good. I support lifetime bans for PED use. When an employer gets caught cheating from the till, he is fired. No second chance. Fired. It should be the Major League way as well.
Of course, in this case, a player cheating, may add money to the MLB coffers.

But, let's look at the other side. Players are still confident they can beat MLB drug testing. In fact, these names haven't been brought up because of drug testing, they came about because of a reporter.
While MLB takes pride and suggests it is the leader in all of sports with a tough drug screen, they are getting drilled by the players as bad as Miggy facing Aaron Harang when it comes to testing.

Mike, you're painting MLB out as the knight on the white horse, cleaning up crime. They will get these evil do'ers and when they do there'll be Hell to pay!
When the truth is that their own drug testing and their own investigators failed in bringing the Florida Flubbers down. A simple newspaper reporter did that job.

Major League baseball ended rampant gambling with a harsh charge against eight players. These eight players paid the price for what many other players were doing as well. But, that was in an un-politically correct setting.
Judge Landis banned those eight players, because he could.
But you know what? Gambling never ran rampant again.
That can't be done now.
No matter what the players think, no matter what the Commish thinks, no matter what you and I think, the ruling has to be held in accordance with the players union agreement with baseball.
It doesn't matter how mad anybody is at Braun or ARod, the only thing that matters is what is in the contract. And they will be penalized accordingly if found guilty.

I hope the next players contract signed has harsher terms. Something like, first offense, all pay is taken away, contract is negated, player is suspended for two years.
Second offense, gone.

Also, I think it is fruitless to give timelines for future events. We have no idea, really, how close MLB is to gathering all evidence needed. They won't let on field activities such as Opening Day, Memorial Day, the All Star game, the trade deadline, or the end of the season dictate as to when they'll file these charges.
One caveat to that would be the World Series. They hold the World Series as sacred and will not break news then.

While the Florida Flubbers are being scrutinized, I wonder how many other players are cheating and not getting caught. These Florida fellas have been under a microscope while players like Marlon Byrd and Chris Davis play over their heads. Keeping us wondering.
Which leads me to think that the cheating game isn't staying ahead of MLB's testing. That seems to be a given.
The cheating game now, is to get these PED's without a trace so that pesky newspaper reporter's do not uncover the scheme.

DOUGHBOYS wrote:This is all well and good. I support lifetime bans for PED use. When an employer gets caught cheating from the till, he is fired. No second chance. Fired. It should be the Major League way as well.
Of course, in this case, a player cheating, may add money to the MLB coffers.

But, let's look at the other side. Players are still confident they can beat MLB drug testing. In fact, these names haven't been brought up because of drug testing, they came about because of a reporter.
While MLB takes pride and suggests it is the leader in all of sports with a tough drug screen, they are getting drilled by the players as bad as Miggy facing Aaron Harang when it comes to testing.

Mike, you're painting MLB out as the knight on the white horse, cleaning up crime. They will get these evil do'ers and when they do there'll be Hell to pay!
When the truth is that their own drug testing and their own investigators failed in bringing the Florida Flubbers down. A simple newspaper reporter did that job.

Major League baseball ended rampant gambling with a harsh charge against eight players. These eight players paid the price for what many other players were doing as well. But, that was in an un-politically correct setting.
Judge Landis banned those eight players, because he could.
But you know what? Gambling never ran rampant again.
That can't be done now.
No matter what the players think, no matter what the Commish thinks, no matter what you and I think, the ruling has to be held in accordance with the players union agreement with baseball.
It doesn't matter how mad anybody is at Braun or ARod, the only thing that matters is what is in the contract. And they will be penalized accordingly if found guilty.

I hope the next players contract signed has harsher terms. Something like, first offense, all pay is taken away, contract is negated, player is suspended for two years.
Second offense, gone.

Also, I think it is fruitless to give timelines for future events. We have no idea, really, how close MLB is to gathering all evidence needed. They won't let on field activities such as Opening Day, Memorial Day, the All Star game, the trade deadline, or the end of the season dictate as to when they'll file these charges.
One caveat to that would be the World Series. They hold the World Series as sacred and will not break news then.

While the Florida Flubbers are being scrutinized, I wonder how many other players are cheating and not getting caught. These Florida fellas have been under a microscope while players like Marlon Byrd and Chris Davis play over their heads. Keeping us wondering.
Which leads me to think that the cheating game isn't staying ahead of MLB's testing. That seems to be a given.
The cheating game now, is to get these PED's without a trace so that pesky newspaper reporter's do not uncover the scheme.

Dough- all valid articulate points. Some other points to consider. MLB certainly is no white horse, but neither are the players. Quite frankly I could care less who the actual players are, it could be Moe, Larry and Curly for all I care. I could care less too what the punishments are, if any are handed out. What I care about is a clean game from T Ball to the Majors, or at least the cleanest it can be. I care that the Tballers, The JC players, the HS players all get the message this is not how its done and that Moe, Larry and Curly are not to be emulated. It has been a long almost 20 year process to even get to this point. The players Union resisted any Drug testing for 15 years, they fought it at every turn, every CBA negotiation. It started changing when the Clean players started demanding change. Miller first was gone, then Fehr left a few years ago. I have no doubt the players forced Fehr out. Wiener comes in and all of a sudden, there is big time progress in addressing PEDS. Even today, Wiener treads lightly on upsetting the majority of clean players who want the game cleaned up once and for all.

As for testing, most do not even know that approx. 40% of MLB players are not even tested today in season. It was the reason MLB and the union brought in WADA to help them. Its a logistics nightmare to test a 1000 players each year, not to mention costly and that is not even including the 3000 minor leaguers. The advancements in the new generation of PEDS makes testing or catching users a guessing game. For example, Player A gets tested and he just so happened to have not used a PED in the past week. He passes. Odds are today, he doesn't get a second test and resumes using. It is why WADA and other sports, including the Olympics will test athletes 15 times a year. They know how to do it. They know the predictors, the best "times" when to test, or at least more knowledge of it all. At this point in time can anyone honestly see MLB players pissing in cup or giving blood while eating in a restaurant or in hotel at 6am. Until MLB and the players get to that point, its hard to catch the users.

As for the current ugly mess, MLB was on to BioGen, Tony B, and other clinics 3-4 years ago. They got wind of "possible" players involved back then (08/09). They increased their chances of catching them with failed tests, because they concluded they might be using. It's no coincidence that almost all the players who did fail a test over the past few years are linked to the clinics. These players were seeing multiple tests during the course of a year and MLB got "lucky" when they caught some of them. They knew about Braun and they got lucky with him when they tested him right after the end of the 2011 season. He probably thought, I wont get tested right now, but MLB got lucky on him. Some players like Bautista say they get tested frequently, that is because MLB probably considers dramatic increases in performance of certain players and they are trying to ensure its not because of PEDS. This latest mess involving Biogen was the result of one of the seedy Biogen workers going to Miami New times. MLB could not ignore it, so they decided to go down the road they have the past 6 months. MLB knew the possible player names long before the Miami new times story broke. They caught some players failing and most they did not. That is why late 2012 they brought in WADA and agreed with the Union to again make changes to the JDA. They probably didn't anticipate the Miami New times story coming out.

I'm not naive to think they will ever rid baseball or any sport of PEDS use, but if and when they do catch players, it just will not have to be because of failed test. The players will get the message now, that others, including the seedy dirtbag suppliers may just turn on you, as well as your fellow players. So the deterrent factors are being escalated up and the consequences are also. As for all these latest players, if they did nothing wrong, then clear your name, tell the truth, and cooperate. To all these players, Explain why all these people who have provided information are all wrong and why your name is even linked.

Baseball, Hot dogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet - the American way and baseball more than any sport is a part of the fabric of our country. It does mean something to some people and for those of us it does, we would like it to be as clean as it can be. For those that could care less about PEDS in baseball, that is thier choice too.

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
While the Florida Flubbers are being scrutinized, I wonder how many other players are cheating and not getting caught. These Florida fellas have been under a microscope while players like Marlon Byrd and Chris Davis play over their heads. Keeping us wondering.

This is the second time that you have referenced Chris Davis as a possible PED user; here in this post and previously in an entire commentary on your page.

You have linked him with players like Marlon Byrd and Rafael Palmeiro, known PED users.

You have pronounced him guilty until proven innocent, and even then suggested that he wouldn’t really be innocent, he just wouldn’t have been properly caught by the old man holding the ball.

All the while offering no proof other than he has had a great season.

Look, I’m no Pollyanna. I know that there are players using PED’s right now, and who knows, Chris Davis may very well be one. However, I cannot watch the game with the assumption that every player that has a great game or week or half season is a PED user.

I have been playing one form of statistical/dice roll/fantasy baseball or another for 30+ years, and in all that time I have been a baseball fan first and a game player second (which may explain why I’m such a sh*ty fantasy player ). As like most everyone reading these boards, I have been to and or watched thousands of baseball games in my life, but very rarely do I so with the intent to see if my fantasy player hit a HR or threw a shutout. I watch baseball for the game. The day I have to stop and wonder if every single event I see on the field is tainted for no reason other than that a similar previous event was tainted, is probably the day I give up this game.

Give me the proof, and I'll be as angry as Outlaw, but until then, I'm going to enjoy what I'm watching.

It really was not my intent to link him with Marlon Byrd, the PED user. I was linking him with Marlon Byrd, the player playing over his head.
And yes, when a player hits moon shots like Davis does, the thought is going to run through my mind as it will a lot of baseball fans.
I'm not trying to taint Davis or especially pronounce guilt. I have no idea of whether he is taking steroids or whatever. What I do know is that the prodigous homers coming off his bat are setting him apart from other players.
At the moment, I am all for calling it 'playing above his head'.
This is another reason why Mike is correct in getting the game cleaned up. The players before Davis have put the thought in our heads. They've planted a seed. It's not fans fault for questioning Davis' cleanliness. It is the prior players fault.
We want to believe that every player is clean, much like we'd like to believe McDonalds uses 100% beef in their burgers.
We can't.
The past cannot be erased. It's there. Part of history. And whether it is believed or not believed, it looks like we are still within the steroid era. Simple as that.

Go to games and enjoy them. I don't think about each player and if they're using or not.
It's not the way I watch baseball either.
But if a player comes out of nowhere like Joe in 'Damned Yankees', and has a season that seems to good to be true, he is certain to be scrutinized because of past players decisions.
Unlike Joe getting his abilities from the devil himself, it is the past players that have put current players in another kind of Hell.