Mariano Rivera

[BK METS]

So, as a Mets fan, watching the game at my ballpark, and despite the game being rather boring, it was definitely good to honor another New Yorker, Mariano Rivera. Although I do think this is getting played out a little, especially giving him the MVP, but watching the players from both dugouts and all of the fans give him that standing ovation, it was pretty cool. He is a class guy.

But, I don't understand Jim Leyland putting him in for the 8th inning. His reasoning was that he wanted to make sure he got in the game in case the National League went ahead in the bottom of the 8th, and then didn't bat in the bottom of the 9th. So, why not bring Nathan out in the 8th. The game is 3-0. There would have to be several hits before there would have been a danger of the NL going ahead in the 8th, and if it got to that point, bring Mariano in for the 4 out save. He would have received the same standing ovation, maybe even a bigger one, if the game was on the line, and maybe he would have even earned the MVP trophy and the Corvette he won (like he really needs a Corvette).

Just my opinion.... but good job with the tribute...

[Money]

So, as a Mets fan, watching the game at my ballpark, and despite the game being rather boring, it was definitely good to honor another New Yorker, Mariano Rivera. Although I do think this is getting played out a little, especially giving him the MVP, but watching the players from both dugouts and all of the fans give him that standing ovation, it was pretty cool. He is a class guy.

But, I don't understand Jim Leyland putting him in for the 8th inning. His reasoning was that he wanted to make sure he got in the game in case the National League went ahead in the bottom of the 8th, and then didn't bat in the bottom of the 9th. So, why not bring Nathan out in the 8th. The game is 3-0. There would have to be several hits before there would have been a danger of the NL going ahead in the 8th, and if it got to that point, bring Mariano in for the 4 out save. He would have received the same standing ovation, maybe even a bigger one, if the game was on the line, and maybe he would have even earned the MVP trophy and the Corvette he won (like he really needs a Corvette).

Just my opinion.... but good job with the tribute...

Leyland is an ASS pure and simple. He will not elaborate any further than he already has.

[ToddZ]

You can't ask him to get out of his routine and warm-up mid inning, possibly in a rush, then come out again in the 9th.

Having him do his normal warm-ups and enter at the beginning of an inning was the RIGHT thing to do and the only way to make sure he gets in was to have him pitch the 8th.

What his own manager does with him is different.

This was absolutely the right call.

[Outlaw]

The Mets organization did a Great Job with the whole All Star Celebration and also participating in Mariano's Sendoff as the Greatest Relief pitcher of all time. The Game and events were baseball at its best. The amount of young players bodes well for the Game. As for Leyland's move, I thought the same thing, but Mo I'm sure had no problem with it, becuase as he has always conducted himself, it is not about him. Thanks Mo for almost 20 years of memories, fun and mostly for the respect you have shown every fan, every player and the Game itself!

[Greg Ambrosius]

I think he did it because he knew that all relievers who hold a 3-0 lead in the 8th inning eventually become the MVPs of the game. Saving a game in the 9th inning when the other team is so bad it has only two hits to that point is meaningless. It's getting those three outs in the 8th inning that matters most.

While it was great to see all of the great young pitchers we have in Major League Baseball, this game needed some offensive fireworks to spark some interest. The offensive numbers from the first half of this season were the worst in 20 years!! That game needed a SPARK!! Heck, it needed Yasiel Puig!! Outside of New Yorkers debating whether Matt Harvey hit Robinson Cano on purpose or not, this game could have used a little more fireworks. Just my two cents.

[Outlaw]

I think he did it because he knew that all relievers who hold a 3-0 lead in the 8th inning eventually become the MVPs of the game. Saving a game in the 9th inning when the other team is so bad it has only two hits to that point is meaningless. It's getting those three outs in the 8th inning that matters most.

While it was great to see all of the great young pitchers we have in Major League Baseball, this game needed some offensive fireworks to spark some interest. The offensive numbers from the first half of this season were the worst in 20 years!! That game needed a SPARK!! Heck, it needed Yasiel Puig!! Outside of New Yorkers debating whether Matt Harvey hit Robinson Cano on purpose or not, this game could have used a little more fireworks. Just my two cents.

I won't say why the offense is down... I think we all know why. as for the MVP, I guess the only sure fire player who could never pull a Melky would be Mo.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Do we really know why the entire league is hitting so poorly each and every year since the steroids crackdown? I mean, were only the hitters using PEDs during this era and has EVERYONE now gotten worse as hitters since PEDs took effect? Would baseball really be so bad offensively for the previous 20 years WITHOUT PEDs? Man, that's a sad thought if true.

All I know is what the facts are stating about the game of baseball now. We just saw a 3-0 All-Star Game in which one of the most impressive starting lineups in NL recent history was held to 3 hits in the game. I mean, Tulo was hitting 8th and Bryce Harper was hitting 9th in that NL lineup and they mustered 3 hits. Chalk it up to great pitching, I guess, but it would be like watching the NBA All-Star Game and seeing a 48-44 defensive battle or watching the NFL Pro Bowl and seeing a 12-6 defensive battle. It's crazy.

Okay, here are the facts from the first half of the season and tell me if PEDs is to blame for all of this:

- We had 4.23 runs per game (per team) - the fewest since 1992 (4.12) -- THE FEWEST IN 21 YEARS!!

- The first half produced a .254 batting average - lowest since 1972 (.244); this is the seventh consecutive season with a decrease in league BA, from .269 in 2006. AGAIN, LOWEST IN 41 YEARS!!

- We had 1,537 SBs before the break, 162 less than last season and in more games. Teams aren't running more because they're not on base as much.

- 34 pitchers with 100+ strikeouts this season, only 24 before the break last season

- 7.53 K per 9 IP league-wide are most ever before break. MOST EVER!!

What we have is more strikeouts, more outs without contacting being made by the bat, less runs, less scoring. Yes, we have an incredible influx of great young players, but is it enough to bring in a new audience of fans? And can we really blame the LACK of PEDs for such inept offense today? Should we be concerned for the sport, or is all of this good for the game? You folks tell me because I believe that scoring makes any game better. If I went 3-0, I'll watch an NHL playoff game. Just sayin'.

[knuckleheads]

What we have is more strikeouts, more outs without contacting being made by the bat, less runs, less scoring.

According to Doughboys, more strikeouts should increase offensive production... You'll have to check with him for the details on how that works. Somehow, I think it's Joey Votto's fault.

[Money]

Do we really know why the entire league is hitting so poorly each and every year since the steroids crackdown? I mean, were only the hitters using PEDs during this era and has EVERYONE now gotten worse as hitters since PEDs took effect? Would baseball really be so bad offensively for the previous 20 years WITHOUT PEDs? Man, that's a sad thought if true.

All I know is what the facts are stating about the game of baseball now. We just saw a 3-0 All-Star Game in which one of the most impressive starting lineups in NL recent history was held to 3 hits in the game. I mean, Tulo was hitting 8th and Bryce Harper was hitting 9th in that NL lineup and they mustered 3 hits. Chalk it up to great pitching, I guess, but it would be like watching the NBA All-Star Game and seeing a 48-44 defensive battle or watching the NFL Pro Bowl and seeing a 12-6 defensive battle. It's crazy.

Okay, here are the facts from the first half of the season and tell me if PEDs is to blame for all of this:

- We had 4.23 runs per game (per team) - the fewest since 1992 (4.12) -- THE FEWEST IN 21 YEARS!!

- The first half produced a .254 batting average - lowest since 1972 (.244); this is the seventh consecutive season with a decrease in league BA, from .269 in 2006. AGAIN, LOWEST IN 41 YEARS!!

- We had 1,537 SBs before the break, 162 less than last season and in more games. Teams aren't running more because they're not on base as much.

- 34 pitchers with 100+ strikeouts this season, only 24 before the break last season

- 7.53 K per 9 IP league-wide are most ever before break. MOST EVER!!

What we have is more strikeouts, more outs without contacting being made by the bat, less runs, less scoring. Yes, we have an incredible influx of great young players, but is it enough to bring in a new audience of fans? And can we really blame the LACK of PEDs for such inept offense today? Should we be concerned for the sport, or is all of this good for the game? You folks tell me because I believe that scoring makes any game better. If I went 3-0, I'll watch an NHL playoff game. Just sayin'.

It may be time to lower the mound again!! 1968 was known as the year of the pitcher. The all star games leading up to and including 1968 were 2-1, 2-1 and 1-0. Denny McClain won 31 games in 68. In 1969 they lowered the mound by 5 inches. The following all start game scores were 9-3, 5-4 and 6-4. This is no coincidence.

In 1968 Carl Yazkremski had a late season surge to win the batting title with a .301 average.

Maybe we should just put them on flat ground

[DOUGHBOYS]

I'm not sure why this is brought up in the Mariano Rivera thread, but I'm game.

Avg .289-.288
Runs 1202- 1199
HR 320- 329
RBI 1147- 1139
SB 214- 236
ERA 3.11- 3.27
WINS 120- 120
WHIP 1.157- 1.157
K's 1357- 1585
Saves 134- 161

Above, the first column is what each leader in the NFBC had in 2005
The second column is last years leaders.
Fantasy-wise, not much has changed.
The strike out column sticks out like a sore thumb.
Like fantasy owners, Major League scouts have leaned towards 'the big arms'. Most pitchers making their way from the minors are fireballers who can rack up k's.
The curve ball artists formerly known as Bert Blyleven or Barry Zito have been back burnered. The nibblers or crafty lefties like Tom Glavine and Andy Pettitte, the same.

And like George Brett intimated, long at bats are overrated. Designed to get a starters pitch count up, in the long run, it only serves to hasten the 'specialist' into the game. Some teams have bullpens that are just as strong or stronger than their starters. In Tampa, after facing David Price, or Moore, or Cobb, batters are treated to facing Alex Torres who has a 0.61 WHIP and 0.34 ERA.
Have they really gained anything by getting a starter out of the game?

The dreaded 'shift' has also helped cut into batting averages. Mark Teixeira was an excellent hitter before shifts.
Mediocre, after.
Carlos Pena once hit for average.
Now, no way.
Pull hitters have felt the sting and for whatever reason, even though the left side is empty, seldom do you see any of these players 'give in' by bunting for a base hit. Even when leading off an inning and being helpful for their teams. Instead, they play into the opposing Managers hands.

With all these big arms, specialization, and shifts, it seems that there has been no batting advantages to offset the defensive advantages.
'Working' counts by batters results in more strike outs, since more hitters get to that two strike area by fouling off pitches faster. This tact has not worked in the hitters advantage.

It makes me re-think that maybe the National League should also use the designated hitter.
Did you know that seven leadoff hitters in the American League have at least 30 RBI?
Only one National Leaguer, Matt Carpenter.
And that includes Choo, who has 13 homers!
The bottom of National League lineups are pathetic.
Names like Kozma, Barney, Tejada, Mathis, and Hundley.
National League pitchers don't get a one batter break when pitching to pitchers, they get a one inning break in facing the seven, eight, and the nine hitters in a lineup.
I'm all for the tradition that the pitcher hit, but my grip on that tradition is loosening its grip in seeing National League pitchers too easily cruise through the bottom of a bad lineup.

[Navel Lint]

Obviously there are multiple factors at play with the reduction in offensive output.

Among some of the items already listed, I would include the use of the Questec System (now called Zone Evaluation) in evaluating umpires and the strike zone. There is no doubt that a higher strike is being called now compared to 15 years ago and a pitch thrown 95mph letter high is harder to hit than one at the belt.

[KJ Duke]

Not a fan of fake awards. I didn't see any of the game, but I presume Mariano was not last night's most valuable from the box score. He should've declined and given it to someone who helped them win the game.

Seems like a typical Selig idea ... save the manufactured showmanship for wrestling, Bud.

[Glenneration X]

I thought the Mariano intro was a pretty special moment, indicative of why I love sports. I felt proud to be a Mets fan, a New York sports fan, and a baseball fan for that matter yesterday.

[Edwards Kings]

Carlos Pena once hit for average.
Now, no way.

Love your analysis as always Dan, but Carlos Pena? Since 2002 (he came up for 62 AB in 2001) and except for 2006 (only 33 AB), Pena has hit above 0.250 once. Not sure he was the example you were looking for.

[KJ Duke]

I thought the Mariano intro was a pretty special moment, indicative of why I love sports. I felt proud to be a Mets fan, a New York sports fan, and a baseball fan for that matter yesterday.

Didn't see it Glenn, I'd just say honor him for what he did - not for something he didn't do.

[Edwards Kings]

I think there is a clear indication that much has changed fantasy-wise. Rather than the top performers, look at what it took to get 80% if the points from 2004 through 2012

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

BA 0.2806 0.2786 0.2845 0.2829 0.2798 0.2793 0.2733 0.2712 0.2712
R 1,133 1,084 1,154 1,131 1,107 1,096 1,058 1,027 1,050
HR 284 274 293 266 273 276 253 258 272
RBI 1,078 1,053 1,119 1,102 1,076 1,069 1,015 1,011 1,012
SB 139 151 162 172 161 175 170 181 179

ERA 3.990 3.677 4.079 3.938 3.805 3.853 3.587 3.494 3.635
WHIP 1.302 1.255 1.312 1.296 1.286 1.293 1.247 1.225 1.224
K 1,180 1,187 1,188 1,205 1,242 1,274 1,317 1,339 1,346


I think this is non-steriod. 2004 was a key year when several players were outed/suspected of HGH use (yes, I had Giambi that year) and the light was being shined on the use. For the next several years, the numbers were remarkably close.

The numbers are still statiscally close, but there does appear to be a definate downward trend related to run production and BA beginning in 2010 with a corresponding rise in pitching stats like ERA, WHIP and K's. Predictably wins (finite number as there can only be one win per game) and saves (finite number as there is only one potential save per game) are very consistent, no matter what. If the decline was steriod based, I would have expected pronounced declines 2005, 2006, 2007.

Also, from a fantasy perspective, I think "we" have gotten better at this format. I think overall the NFBC owners are more savvy and the talent is spread out a bit more. I do not have the numbers, but I would expect the middle of the pack to be expanding faster than my waistline.

I believe baseball will go to the DH soon for both leagues (especially now that we have constant interleague play), but I do not expect them to mess with the mound. Might bring in some fences in the NL, though. I like the comment about targeting and committing to power-type arms for development. Seems to make sense, but again I have no numbers. Also, could it be that batting coaches are preaching less plate coverage and more swing from the heals for dramitic result?

In short (too late), I do not think it is steriods, but rather the strategies MLB teams are using. Just my opinion.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Carlos Pena once hit for average.
Now, no way.

Love your analysis as always Dan, but Carlos Pena? Since 2002 (he came up for 62 AB in 2001) and except for 2006 (only 33 AB), Pena has hit above 0.250 once. Not sure he was the example you were looking for.

I use Pena because not just great hitters are affected by the shift. The last three years, Pena is close to .200. Like Adam Dunn, there were thoughts through baseball fans of their teams and their fantasy owners that they can at least eke out a .240 or .250 average from them.
That is impossible now.

Folks like to only think about big batting averages plummeting.
Pena or Dunn being a possible .230-.240 and going to the depths of being a .200 hitter hurts overall batting average as much as Teixeira going from .290 to .240
Of all hitters in baseball, I feel most sorry for Adam Dunn most.
The poor guy already hits so few fair balls per plate appearance as is. To have some hard line drives swallowed by the shift almost seems unfair.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Not a fan of fake awards. I didn't see any of the game, but I presume Mariano was not last night's most valuable from the box score. He should've declined and given it to someone who helped them win the game.

Seems like a typical Selig idea ... save the manufactured showmanship for wrestling, Bud.

He couldn't decline KJ because there was a free car or truck involved with the award. He wasn't giving that up!!

The worst part was when Selig tried to hug him and Mariano kind of threw the old man's head into his chest. Even that looked manufactured. I'm not sure I've ever seen Selig try to hug anyone before. It looked awkward.

Honestly, who could you give that award to last night? The AL held the NL to 3 hits and the RBIs were a sac fly, a groundout and a double in the 8th inning. You could tell right after Mo came in that this MVP award was going to be a symbolic blessing to add to someone's resume, someone like a Future Hall of Famer who played in the city.

I never watch All-Star Games, but we were on the air last night so we had it on for highlights. Now I know why I never watch these.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I think there is a clear indication that much has changed fantasy-wise. Rather than the top performers, look at what it took to get 80% if the points from 2004 through 2012

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012

BA 0.2806 0.2786 0.2845 0.2829 0.2798 0.2793 0.2733 0.2712 0.2712
R 1,133 1,084 1,154 1,131 1,107 1,096 1,058 1,027 1,050
HR 284 274 293 266 273 276 253 258 272
RBI 1,078 1,053 1,119 1,102 1,076 1,069 1,015 1,011 1,012
SB 139 151 162 172 161 175 170 181 179

ERA 3.990 3.677 4.079 3.938 3.805 3.853 3.587 3.494 3.635
WHIP 1.302 1.255 1.312 1.296 1.286 1.293 1.247 1.225 1.224
K 1,180 1,187 1,188 1,205 1,242 1,274 1,317 1,339 1,346


I think this is non-steriod. 2004 was a key year when several players were outed/suspected of HGH use (yes, I had Giambi that year) and the light was being shined on the use. For the next several years, the numbers were remarkably close.

The numbers are still statiscally close, but there does appear to be a definate downward trend related to run production and BA beginning in 2010 with a corresponding rise in pitching stats like ERA, WHIP and K's. Predictably wins (finite number as there can only be one win per game) and saves (finite number as there is only one potential save per game) are very consistent, no matter what. If the decline was steriod based, I would have expected pronounced declines 2005, 2006, 2007.

Also, from a fantasy perspective, I think "we" have gotten better at this format. I think overall the NFBC owners are more savvy and the talent is spread out a bit more. I do not have the numbers, but I would expect the middle of the pack to be expanding faster than my waistline.

I believe baseball will go to the DH soon for both leagues (especially now that we have constant interleague play), but I do not expect them to mess with the mound. Might bring in some fences in the NL, though. I like the comment about targeting and committing to power-type arms for development. Seems to make sense, but again I have no numbers. Also, could it be that batting coaches are preaching less plate coverage and more swing from the heals for dramitic result?

In short (too late), I do not think it is steriods, but rather the strategies MLB teams are using. Just my opinion.

Great job Wayne. I was just going to post something similar. The numbers for all of the targeted categories at 80 percent is the key and you can see dramatic offensive declines and huge increases in the power pitching categories. And now this year we are also seeing a big reduction in the number of stolen bases, so look for that category to decline as well. Again, we've gone from team batting averages of .269 to .254 since 2006; that's a huge decline.

Is the DH in the National League far behind? With so many inter-league games, it now makes sense to have one set of rules, whether it's all with the DH or all without the DH. It's time to end the farce that is DH only in the AL and no DH in the NL. We're playing too many interleague games for that to continue much longer.

[Driver Love]

I am not sure why people are on Leyland. He put Rivera in to pitch the 8th to avoid the off chance that the National league made a comeback in the bottom of the 8th and took the lead and then could close out the game in the top of the 9th resulting in Rivera not pitching at all.

It was also Leyland who orchestrated the players leaving the field as Rivera went to the mount to get that ovation.

[Navel Lint]

Is the DH in the National League far behind? With so many inter-league games, it now makes sense to have one set of rules, whether it's all with the DH or all without the DH. It's time to end the farce that is DH only in the AL and no DH in the NL. We're playing too many interleague games for that to continue much longer.

I'd much rather see the end to the DH in the AL instead of it's introduction in the NL.

Supposedly one of the issues raised by the players in the past is the loss of a high paying position (DH). When you look around at the DH landscape as it's made up now, I'm not sure that it would be that big of a problem. However, one obvious fix would be to expand all MLB rosters from 25 to 26. That's 30 new jobs for players, and I doubt that you would find many, if any, managers that wouldn't want one more bench guy or extra pitcher.

[Glenneration X]

I thought the Mariano intro was a pretty special moment, indicative of why I love sports. I felt proud to be a Mets fan, a New York sports fan, and a baseball fan for that matter yesterday.

Didn't see it Glenn, I'd just say honor him for what he did - not for something he didn't do.

I didn't stick around for the MVP announcement and honestly was a bit surprised at first when I read that it was given to Mariano. Granted, it was probably an undeserved gesture considering his contribution to the win.

That said, it seems pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

The intro and standing ovation was the moment for me. Well that and Matt Harvey/David Wright/Tom Seaver and Citifield.

[Navel Lint]

I thought the Mariano intro was a pretty special moment, indicative of why I love sports. I felt proud to be a Mets fan, a New York sports fan, and a baseball fan for that matter yesterday.

Didn't see it Glenn, I'd just say honor him for what he did - not for something he didn't do.

I didn't stick around for the MVP announcement and honestly was a bit surprised at first when I read that it was given to Mariano. Granted, it was probably an undeserved gesture considering his contribution to the win.

That said, it seems pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

The intro and standing ovation was the moment for me. Well that and Matt Harvey/David Wright/Tom Seaver and Citifield.

Glenn, If you were at the game last night, you should go to MLB.com. They have a thing on the front page called Play Tag. Check it out and see yourself. Tell us where you were sitting and we can see you also

[Glenneration X]

Glenn, If you were at the game last night, you should go to MLB.com. They have a thing on the front page called Play Tag. Check it out and see yourself. Tell us where you were sitting and we can see you also

They got my good side.

[Navel Lint]

Glenn, If you were at the game last night, you should go to MLB.com. They have a thing on the front page called Play Tag. Check it out and see yourself. Tell us where you were sitting and we can see you also

They got my good side.

Were you the one they tackled for running onto the field during the game