Hall Of Fame Balloting: Is It About Players or Writers?

[Greg Ambrosius]

Today should be a joyous day for Major League Baseball as the Hall of Fame announces its newest inductees. But in the past few years, the Hall of Fame has become more about the BBWAA writers making the votes than the players receiving the votes. This week almost every writer has cast his vote and then written about who he picked and why he picked those players. Do we really need 400+ explanations from writers looking to fill copy in early January?

Sure, I get it that the Steroid Era has made Hall of Fame voting very interesting and each voter should explain the reasoning for his voting process. But I'm tired of this and as a fan I think we should honor the top players in the game and move onto the next era. The last time I looked, nobody has erased any of the World Series championships from the 1990s, so why are we eliminating all of the individual performances? Why can the Yankees celebrate the World Series title they won with Roger Clemens, but he can't be honored for his individual accomplishments during those seasons?

Is anyone else sick of this whole voting process? Anyone else feel it's goofy to make Tony LaRussa a slam dunk Hall of Fame manager when he looked the other way as Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire grew muscles right in front of his very eyes and he looked the other way?? Or should we just accept the nominees that the BBWAA gives us without a fight?

Personally, I'm ready to move on and acknowledge the 1990s for what they were: A cheat decade. If Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens weren't two of the greatest players the game has ever seen, I don't know who was. Mike Piazza was also one of the best catchers of all time. Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and Frank Thomas are easy first-time ballot winners. Craig Biggio has over 3,000 hits. These are all easy decisions, in my view. Time to move on and put the best players in the game in the Hall of Fame. If we can't acknowledge their individual accomplishments, then strip every team of their World Series titles during the Steroid Era and punish the teams as well. Everyone looked the other way, so punish all or punish none. But let's move on.

I'm tired of the writers who covered the Steroid Era and never wrote a single thing about what was going on now keeping those same players out of the Hall of Fame. Time to move on.

What's your thoughts on the HOF today and who do you think gets in? Let's talk it up on a cold winter day and warm our thoughts with baseball. Thanks all.

[KJ Duke]

At some point, I think the clear best players of the era - Bonds, Clemens and a few others - should get in, but not now as this PED mess is still getting sorted out. Glavine had longevity, but his numbers weren't close to Maddux, I don't think he warrants a first-ballot vote. Agree on the managers too, Atlanta seemed relatively clean by comparison, so Bobby Cox should have made it before the other managers who seemed to have won with the help of users.

My vote ...
• Greg Maddux
• Pete Rose

[DOUGHBOYS]

Agreed in full, Greg. Something has to be done with the voting process first. Writers no longer involved or even following baseball are allowed to vote, simply because 'they always have'. It's travestry and mockery of something baseball fans hold dear.
Most other writers take the high-hand approach and judge players in personal decisions, not for their greatness on the field.

As a baseball fan, I can hold my nose while Barry Bonds makes his Hall of Fame speech. I can do the same for Clemens or any player who has the numbers to be considered. It is an injustice to use the Hall of Fame as a wood shed for these players.
It was not the intent when it began.
OJ Simpson resides in the football Hall of Fame. He committed the ultimate vicious act in the minds of many and has had the poorest of deportment since. Football fans can still look at his plaque and decide for themselves whether they want to think about what he did on the field or off. That is the way it should be for baseball.

Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, and Bonds all belong in the Hall of Fame. We can't judge these players for what they are. We should be judging them for what we saw on the field. And at those times, there was hardly anybody better.

[Yah Mule]

What bothers me is none of these sportswriters said anything about PEDS while they were rampant and more or less tacitly approved by the league office. Now all these years later, these guys want to be the morality police and retroactively punish everybody. Ken Gurnick's ballot was a perfect example of a guy trying to gain attention for himself. He only voted for Jack Morris, the most polarizing candidate on the ballot, and his reason for invalidating everybody else was that they played during the steroid era. Well, Canseco won the AL MVP in '88 and Morris' World Series masterpiece happened in '91, so his argument/excuse is nonsense. Murray Chass claims he's only going to keep voting to spite some baseball bloggers who annoy him. The whole voting process has become so petty and childish, the Republicans and Democrats in Congress are beginning to appear reasonable by comparison.

[Navel Lint]

I wrote this just yesterday

http://wrigleyregular.mlblogs.com/2014/ ... me-ballot/

Although within the past 24hrs I've already had some change of heart.

[Glenneration X]

Why can the Yankees celebrate the World Series title they won with Roger Clemens, but he can't be honored for his individual accomplishments during those seasons?

I agree that the Yankees should be stripped of their World Championships....all 27 of them.

[Money]

The entire process needs an overhaul. Old time writers not in touch with the game anymore, new mathematic majors disregarding key intangibles from yesteryear. Why is it all writers? I've always had issue with that. I'm not sure what the process should be, but the one they have in place now is archaic and needs help.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas in.
Biggio and Raines out. Stupid voters.

[Glenneration X]

Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas in.
Raines out. Stupid voters.

Another Met in Glavine deservedly makes it in, though I still can't believe Piazza is left on the outside looking in. What the hell do you have to do to make it into the HOF these days?

At least Seaver still has the highest percentage ever.

[ALL-IN JD]

At least Met fans have SOMETHING to hang their hat on!!

[Tom Kessenich]

I'm fine keeping the steroid users out just like I'm fine keeping Rose out. There needs to be consequences for this type of behavior. The sad thing is guys like Bonds, Clemens and Rose get in on the first ballot had they simply abided by the rules of the game. They did this to themselves and I have no sympathy for any of them. I do realize the owners and commissioner were complicit in the whole sadness of the steroid era but no one forced future Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, for example, to stick a needle in their a**. In their case, I believe it was primarily ego driven. Plenty of others used steroids to keep up because their skills weren't at that high of a level. With players like Bonds and Clemens that clearly was not the case. So I have no sympathy for players who had that type of talent and decided to piss their legacy away without any regard for it.

I disagree with your O.J. analogy Dan. He was inducted before his murder accusation. Now if you want to say he should have been kicked out after being acquitted of the charge that's another discussion entirely.

I do think there should be full transparency for the voting, however. Let's see who the 16 idiots were, for example, who didn't think Greg Maddux should have been inducted today.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas in.
Biggio and Raines out. Stupid voters.

I guess Craig Biggio needed 4,000 hits to make it to the Hall of Fame. Stupid voters.

The BBWAA is making a big deal about having only 10 spots to vote players in, yet only 3 players garnered enough votes to get in this year. Why don't each of these guys do their homework and see that some of these guys who are left out of the Hall are really HOF worthy. VOTE FOR THEM.

Piazza got more votes this year. Good. He should be in, too.

[joshguy]

Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas in.
Biggio and Raines out. Stupid voters.

I guess Craig Biggio needed 4,000 hits to make it to the Hall of Fame. Stupid voters.

The BBWAA is making a big deal about having only 10 spots to vote players in, yet only 3 players garnered enough votes to get in this year. Why don't each of these guys do their homework and see that some of these guys who are left out of the Hall are really HOF worthy. VOTE FOR THEM.

Piazza got more votes this year. Good. He should be in, too.

Do you think there was a chance Biggio was on PEDs? After his 5th season he just took off on the HR and speed. Had like 30 HR his first 5 years TOTAL then he's all of a sudden a 20 HR guy the rest of his career and still manages to steal 50 bases a couple times

[Navel Lint]

Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas in.
Biggio and Raines out. Stupid voters.

I guess Craig Biggio needed 4,000 hits to make it to the Hall of Fame. Stupid voters.

As Dan will tell you, we love ourselves some round numbers, and while 3000 hits is just an arbitrary benchmark that doesn't necessarily make you better than the guy with 2757 hits, it makes you pretty damn good.

Biggio should be in.

[Doctor Who]

As an Astros fan all my life, there is no way that Biggio did anything. I don't believe Bags did it either but to each his own there. Biggio had 3 gold gloves at 3 different postitions (dont think he deserved the OF one though) but has so many things that are amazing about him. Not hitting into a double play an entire year. 50 doubles and 50 SB's in a year. All the HBP, face of a franchise type guy. Even now, when you think of the Astros, you still think of Biggio and Bagwell. They put the Astros on the map. Yet, Frank Thomas gets in without any flack. Him and Bagwell were compared throughout their entire careers, even born the same day! How isn't he congregated like everyone else in the steroids BS? The HOF is a complete joke without any transparency, and I'm glad deadspin basically made a mockery of it by buying someone's vote. Just a sad day when a guy did everything off the field with kids, cancer patients, and did everything on the field as well, but isn't worthy of the HOF because instead of voting for guys that belong, you want to bring politics into it and not do your job of picking the best players of an era, yet alone since the inception of baseball.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas in.
Biggio and Raines out. Stupid voters.

I guess Craig Biggio needed 4,000 hits to make it to the Hall of Fame. Stupid voters.

The BBWAA is making a big deal about having only 10 spots to vote players in, yet only 3 players garnered enough votes to get in this year. Why don't each of these guys do their homework and see that some of these guys who are left out of the Hall are really HOF worthy. VOTE FOR THEM.

Piazza got more votes this year. Good. He should be in, too.

Do you think there was a chance Biggio was on PEDs? After his 5th season he just took off on the HR and speed. Had like 30 HR his first 5 years TOTAL then he's all of a sudden a 20 HR guy the rest of his career and still manages to steal 50 bases a couple times

What a shame that every single player who played during the Steroid Era is tainted and partly thrown in the same net. Just because he improved that means he could be on PEDs?? Lots of players improve, get better. Biggio was a gamer, he has 3,000 hits and in the past that number was good enough for the Hall. Just because he played with other Steroid users doesn't mean he should be excluded from the Hall. The voters got it wrong with him this year.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I'm fine keeping the steroid users out just like I'm fine keeping Rose out. There needs to be consequences for this type of behavior. The sad thing is guys like Bonds, Clemens and Rose get in on the first ballot had they simply abided by the rules of the game. They did this to themselves and I have no sympathy for any of them. I do realize the owners and commissioner were complicit in the whole sadness of the steroid era but no one forced future Hall of Famers like Bonds and Clemens, for example, to stick a needle in their a**. In their case, I believe it was primarily ego driven. Plenty of others used steroids to keep up because their skills weren't at that high of a level. With players like Bonds and Clemens that clearly was not the case. So I have no sympathy for players who had that type of talent and decided to piss their legacy away without any regard for it.

By being ok with it, you are harming those thought to be on steroids....and maybe never did.
Did Piazza? I don't know.
Did Biggio? I don't know.
Those lie entirely in the voters minds. It's silly. Take it away.
They belong in the Hall.
It resembles more of a witch hunt than a vote for the Hall of Fame.


I'll still use the OJ analogy, because the time for Jackson, Rose, and Bonds to get in will eventually pass.
The Hall of Fame is not for the current generation as much as it is for the next.
The next generation should know from a baseball sense that Jackson, Rose, and Bonds are all Hall of Fame worthy, no matter their misdeeds.
Just as the football Hall of Fame still has Simpson. Timing of misdeeds should not matter.
Ty Cobb slugged fans and brutalized folks of other ethnicities. He is in the Hall of Fame.
When kids see that plaque, it's ok. Thoughts going through their minds are not what kind of man he is, but rather, what kind of player he is.
THAT is what is tantamount.
Let that next generation be free to think what they will, but they will know that these players belong.
Using the Hall of Fame to spank players for lifetime performances on the field is unjust.
The only thing the next generation will get out of this type of voting is that our generation was not smart enough to allow greatness on the field in the Hall of Fame.
A place where greatness on the field should come first....and everything else is a distant second.

[Tom Kessenich]

I agree there's way too much guessing involved with the steroid era. That being said, I feel as if there is more than enough evidence to tell us Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire and Sosa) were among those guilty. I realize the Hall is not about being the nicest people. That being said if there are rules in place and those rules were broken (even if the rules were not being enforced fully at the time) I have no problem with there being consequences for those actions. Players like Bonds and Clemens didn't take their legacies into account. Maybe they should have. Let that be a lesson to them and all who follow in the years to come (and yes I'm referring to Ryan Braun as well who also just pissed away his chance to be in the Hall of Fame as far as I'm concerned).

[DOUGHBOYS]

I agree there's way too much guessing involved with the steroid era. That being said, I feel as if there is more than enough evidence to tell us Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire and Sosa) were among those guilty. I realize the Hall is not about being the nicest people. That being said if there are rules in place and those rules were broken (even if the rules were not being enforced fully at the time) I have no problem with there being consequences for those actions. Players like Bonds and Clemens didn't take their legacies into account. Maybe they should have. Let that be a lesson to them and all who follow in the years to come (and yes I'm referring to Ryan Braun as well who also just pissed away his chance to be in the Hall of Fame as far as I'm concerned).

The evidence was strong against Braun, yet you backed him to the hilt.
The truth is, we don't know.
And to punish guys like Piazza and Biggio because we don't know, is stupid.

[whale4evr]

Quietly this year, Palmeiro with 4.4% of the vote drops off the ballot. Say what you will about him, he leaves the HOF discussion despite the 3,000 hits, close to 600 hr's and 600 doubles and one of the sweetest swings you'll ever see. He was probably never getting in anyway, but his career deserves at least a little more discussion.

[KJ Duke]

Quietly this year, Palmeiro with 4.4% of the vote drops off the ballot. Say what you will about him, he leaves the HOF discussion despite the 3,000 hits, close to 600 hr's and 600 doubles and one of the sweetest swings you'll ever see. He was probably never getting in anyway, but his career deserves at least a little more discussion.

--- what Ryan Braun could've been, if he hadn't been caught 'til his career over. Same faux outrage.

[Glenneration X]

I agree there's way too much guessing involved with the steroid era. That being said, I feel as if there is more than enough evidence to tell us Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire and Sosa) were among those guilty. I realize the Hall is not about being the nicest people. That being said if there are rules in place and those rules were broken (even if the rules were not being enforced fully at the time) I have no problem with there being consequences for those actions. Players like Bonds and Clemens didn't take their legacies into account. Maybe they should have. Let that be a lesson to them and all who follow in the years to come (and yes I'm referring to Ryan Braun as well who also just pissed away his chance to be in the Hall of Fame as far as I'm concerned).

I happen to agree with this statement almost verbatim. And trust that it pains me to agree with someone who so nonchalantly disregarded an opportunity for an hour with Miss Alba. The HOF debate sure makes odd bedfellows.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Quietly this year, Palmeiro with 4.4% of the vote drops off the ballot. Say what you will about him, he leaves the HOF discussion despite the 3,000 hits, close to 600 hr's and 600 doubles and one of the sweetest swings you'll ever see. He was probably never getting in anyway, but his career deserves at least a little more discussion.

He did have a sweet swing. He was never a power hitter. In fact until the age of 27 and the time he was in Texas and 'introduced' to his power hitting ways, he only had 47 homers in five years It was then that he started putting up gaudy 38-47 home run seasons.
Without steroids, Palmeiro would not be even a consideration for the Hall.
With them, he was more than just a Nick Markakis type. He was the ultimate four category player.
Palmeiro was one of the greatest steroid players ever. By that, he joins a few others in having his career so advanced by steroids, that it's hard to imagine him as that Nick Markakis type player.
Palmeiro, Bonds, and Sosa seemed to get more out of steroids than most other offenders. It suited them well.

[whale4evr]

Regarding Palmeiro, I was thinking what type of player he would have been without the PEDs. I think he would have developed some power during his peak years and then had a normal decline that would have cut a couple of years of counting stats off the end of his career. A career similar to Rusty Staub maybe. Pretty damn good but just short of the Hall.

[Navel Lint]

Quietly this year, Palmeiro with 4.4% of the vote drops off the ballot. Say what you will about him, he leaves the HOF discussion despite the 3,000 hits, close to 600 hr's and 600 doubles and one of the sweetest swings you'll ever see. He was probably never getting in anyway, but his career deserves at least a little more discussion.

He did have a sweet swing. He was never a power hitter. In fact until the age of 27 and the time he was in Texas and 'introduced' to his power hitting ways, he only had 47 homers in five years It was then that he started putting up gaudy 38-47 home run seasons.

So true. Sweet swing, but the Cubs were more than willing to trade him away to TEX because they never thought that he would develop the power they wanted at firstbase. In fact the Cubs thought that Mark Grace, the player that took over first base from Palmeiro, was much more likely to hit for power.