Gaming system or being smart?

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:52 am

There are 3 teams in the Don Mathis mid-season league that are trying the reliever, no starter strategy. Don Mathis himself is playing now 3 relievers and all DL players. This is obviously WITHIN the rules, so let's not discuss that

Personally, I think the NFBC should require a minimum number of starts. For example Don Mathis has put together this all star line up:

Ayala, Luis P WAS @Fla @Fla @Fla - ChC ChC ChC Active P

Brazoban, Yhency P LAD @Ari @Ari @Ari @Ari StL StL StL Active P

Burgos, Ambiorix P KC @Bos @Bos @Bos LAA LAA LAA LAA Active P

DeJean, Mike P COL @Pit @Pit @Pit - @Ari @Ari @Ari Active P

Gagne, Eric P LAD @Ari @Ari @Ari @Ari StL StL StL Active P

Gonzalez, Mike P PIT Col Col Col @Fla @Fla @Fla @Fla Active P

Santana, Julio P PHI @SD @SD @SD - Atl Atl Atl Active P

Street, Huston P OAK @Bal @Bal @Bal - @Det @Det @Det Active P

Zambrano, Victor P NYM - @Cin @Cin @Cin Hou Hou Hou Active P

Of DL'ed pitchers. It think it is crazy to let people BULK UP Hitting and only play 3-4 relievers and using MRs to get good whip/era. I believe this is truly gaming the system, no playing the game the way it was intended...

Spy

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:01 am

This was exactly my (and others') point to Greg about why the 40-man roster rule is not sufficient to prevent similar maneuvers. In 2005, certain owners took Single-A pitchers to lock in a low ERA and ratio. The 2006 rules changes were supposed to prevent this, but they obviously do not.

It's allowed by the current rules. However, I agree with you Spy -- it shouldn't be.

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:41 am

I used to agree with both of you on this one, now I just say if you want to try a system that has been proven to have less success go right ahead.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:50 am

We did not institute a minimum innings pitched rule for the mid-season league or the 40-man roster rule since it changes so much just before the All-Star break draft. It also allowed those owners in the mid-season leagues to try different strategies if they so desired. The fact that three owners are using the same strategy may prevent that 15-15-15-1-1 strategy, but maybe not.

You are right KOQ, there are ways around every rule. We are NOT going to institute a minimum starts rule for our year-long events, that's for sure. We will evaluate the number of innings pitched for 2007 and possibly the 40-man rosters again, but what you're seeing here in the mid-season leagues is more a result of us having a 1/3 minimum innings pitched rule in place rather than a more stringent 400 IP like we have for the main event.

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:54 am

Question: So does that mean dropping saves (9 starters) is just as bad?

I don't see a problem with either as it hasn't been all that successful in the Overall. Of course there are 1 or 2 guys that have been successful within their league with dropping saves, but I think its all fair in love and war. It's just another element you need to consider with strategy.

With many teams struggling with ERA in my league, I like the fact one manager has dropped saves and backed up the truck for Starters. It's got managers caught between a rock and a hard place as all Pitching cats are really competitive at this time.

[ July 17, 2006, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: nydownunder ]

la Jolla · Post by **la Jolla** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:31 am

I have never understood the statement "not playing the game the way it was intended." The intention of these contests is to win money, why else would we put the time, money and effort that we do. The bottom line is that we have a set of rules and if someone wants to use a strategy within those rules, it should be ok. They pay the same amount of money as everyone else. The funny thing is that people who knock the all reliever strategy as a waste of money somehow become infuriated when it actually works. You can't have it both ways. Don Mathis has a legit shot at winning that league with the all reliever staff and Eric Peden has been in the top 3 in the Ultimate league all season and is definately going to finish in the money, maybe even win 40k using the all reliever strategy. On the same note there are other teams that have employed the all reliever staff and NOT finished in the money. So it's a chance, just like any other draft strategy. These contests shouldn't be designed to have every team use 2 closers and 7 starting pitchers. What fun would that be?

mdz129 · Post by **mdz129** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:22 am

I utilized the 2 closers, rest minor leaguer formula( drafted Liriano, Verlander ) in 2005( won AL $650 league) and did the closer with Middle guys in 2006( will be 1st or 2nd in NL and 5/6 in AL)

It does work for auction single league contests and works poorly for mixed leagues drafts-- IMHO.

bjoak · Post by **bjoak** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:52 am

Why is no one answering the obvious question here? As I understand it, the 'Don Mathis League' counts the first half results as though people drafted their teams in March. Therefore immediately after the draft you should have a solid ranking of who is in first, last, etc. and we already have more than a half season of data to tell us how well this is working. Question: How well is this working? Are you guys complaing about three last place teams, three teams ranked 1, 2, 3 or teams that are mixed in just like anyone else?

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:52 am

1. Why is an all CL strategy different? The HUGE DIFFERENCE between this and any other dump strategy is that the Reliever Strategy enables people to basically LOAD UP on other areas much more so others. For example, Instead of picking a mix of speed, power, SP, and CL, you can just go get speed, power and CL. SP typically represent a huge % of the players taking in the top 15 picks. This strategy enables you to avoid all that. Since MR have very little value, you can easily pick then up at your leisure later. Other strategies like ALL STARTERS basically means just that, you would have to pick atleast 6-7 good, active starters to compete with everyone else, which means that you can't have dumped many picks. Even dumping speed typically means that you are really just dumping one speed guy like Podsednik or what ever. The ability to only pick 3-4 pitchers out of your first 20 picks is a huge unbalancer.

2. Good question Bjoak. Here is the results as of Today:

Don Matthis: 1st Place

xyzzy mid-season: 3rd Place

La Jolla Waves, 7th Place (you can do this strategy better or worse just like any other)

For additional context, Don Mathis drafted 3 Pitchers in his first 18 picks, xyzzy, picked 4.

Personally, unless the rules change for mid-season, it is clear that you will more than likely do extremely well with a CL/MR strategy.

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:07 am

Originally posted by la Jolla:

I have never understood the statement "not playing the game the way it was intended." The intention of these contests is to win money, why else would we put the time, money and effort that we do. The bottom line is that we have a set of rules and if someone wants to use a strategy within those rules, it should be ok. They pay the same amount of money as everyone else. The funny thing is that people who knock the all reliever strategy as a waste of money somehow become infuriated when it actually works. You can't have it both ways. Don Mathis has a legit shot at winning that league with the all reliever staff and Eric Peden has been in the top 3 in the Ultimate league all season and is definately going to finish in the money, maybe even win 40k using the all reliever strategy. On the same note there are other teams that have employed the all reliever staff and NOT finished in the money. So it's a chance, just like any other draft strategy. These contests shouldn't be designed to have every team use 2 closers and 7 starting pitchers. What fun would that be? The point of my statement was the idea of Rotersserie baseball is to demonstrate who would be a better baseball manager. If you could CHOOSE TO PLAY INACTIVE PLAYERS, why not just let people decide to have 3 pitcher slots? In effect, this is what this strategy allows... That is why I think it 'games the system' and most leagues have minimums on innings Pitched or starts.

Personally, I don't see at all why the mid-season leagues don't have a 200 IP after the break rule. That would be consistent with the 400 IP full season rule. Secondly, I would vote for the full year IP rule to go to 800. This would basically say that you would have to average 90 innings per slot. It could be MRs, CLs or SP. I agree, you don't want to dictate exactly what mixes people play, but I think you have to ensure that people play ACTIVE PLAYERS.

Spy

viper · Post by **viper** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:36 pm

gee ... and I always thought the idea of Rotisserie baseball was to have a higher cumulative score in the categories than all the other teams in the league. That explains my lack of success this year.

Don Mathis · Post by **Don Mathis** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:45 am

I thought the Don Mathis league DID have a min. 400 innings pitched.

My team will have.

Greg-- Please clear up

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:51 am

Originally posted by Don Mathis:

I thought the Don Mathis league DID have a min. 400 innings pitched.

My team will have.

Greg-- Please clear up No, the rules for the mid-season leagues had 1/3 minimum innings pitched. We did not change that from last year. As I stated previously, in 2007 we will look at the minimum innings pitched limit to see if we want to increase it for the main event and auction leagues and we will probably impose a greater IP limit for the mid-season leagues too. But we did not change this year's mid-season rules from last year. Good luck Don.

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:28 am

Originally posted by viper:

gee ... and I always thought the idea of Rotisserie baseball was to have a higher cumulative score in the categories than all the other teams in the league. That explains my lack of success this year. Well, just like the game Monopoly is a 'simulation' of the real estate market, Roto is a 'simulation' of baseball. To win either game, you must acquire the most points or $, but, the key point is that the 'simulation' of baseball is being skewered by a hole in the rules.

Anyway, Greg, please confirm for the Mid Season leagues, you must acquire 133.33 innings pitched in the 2nd half? Is that what you mean by 1/3 minimum innings pitched?

Also, here is a post from the league message board:

Just an opinion Posted By: troysmomstillsaysno

07/18/2006 01:57 PM ET

I did not plan out my draft well at all so you may all take this with a grain of salt but if the future of fantasy baseball drafts is having endless numbers of dl'ed or retired or suspended players being drafted, it will be an absolute joke. I think that Don was sharp for playing within the confines of the established rules. I just think the rules have to change. Owning a fantasy team is supposed to be a microcosm of being a general manager. Trying to know who is going to be the diamond in the rough, or picking up someone that you know will eventually help you. It is not supposed to be about exploiting ridiculous loopholes in a fantasy format and riding it to victory. Next year, I could alternate between closers and offensive studs and take no starters. I could sew up saves, era, ratio and then because i would have such a huge lead in saves, I could dump my closers and let the rest of you use up your faab to buy them, knowing that you could not catch me. I would replace all my closers with dl'ed pitchers and wrap up 3 pitching categories. We should all have to remain active with our lineups and not be allowed to keep inactive players on our roster. Just because someone plays within the confines of the rules, doesnt make it right. We need to change the rules to eliminate this kind of strategy. Thank you and good night now.

FRANKLY for next year, assuming no rules change, I am going to be tricky - take only a few CL up front, see if everyone else is doing the same strategy then jump on some great SPs. I figure if 5+ players go for this strat in next years Matthis league, then the increase in starter quality could be enough to combat the advantages of this strategy.

Spy

the AX cuts deep · Post by **the AX cuts deep** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:45 am

I agree strongly with the points SPY makes, both in the July 17, 2006 05:07 PM and July 18, 2006 01:28 PM posts...

In order to replicate REAL baseball managing even more closely, I'd even advocate much more stringent requirements. By that I mean something like a WEEKLY minimum of say, 40 IP.

Few would agree with this part, but in my mind it would be nice to impose an arbitrary penalty, adding 5 Earned Runs and 10 Hit+Walks to the stats for the week for every team which falls short of the minimum innings. Yes...awfully strict, but being a "pitching guy" I really think there should be a heavy emphasis on showing skill in evaluating the talents and potential of the entire Player Universe. If not interested in being that in-depth or allocating the required time to be skilled in all phases of the game...get yourself another hobby

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:23 pm

Originally posted by the AX cuts deep:

I agree strongly with the points SPY makes, both in the July 17, 2006 05:07 PM and July 18, 2006 01:28 PM posts...

In order to replicate REAL baseball managing even more closely, I'd even advocate much more stringent requirements. By that I mean something like a WEEKLY minimum of say, 40 IP.

Few would agree with this part, but in my mind it would be nice to impose an arbitrary penalty, adding 5 Earned Runs and 10 Hit+Walks to the stats for the week for every team which falls short of the minimum innings. Yes...awfully strict, but being a "pitching guy" I really think there should be a heavy emphasis on showing skill in evaluating the talents and potential of the entire Player Universe. If not interested in being that in-depth or allocating the required time to be skilled in all phases of the game...get yourself another hobby

I thought the 40 IP penalty was the dumbest thing I have seen on here in a while and then it got topped with the penalty comment.

RTKS · Post by **RTKS** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:34 pm

I understand working within the rules to win the league. I understand finding a loop hole within those rules to take advantage. Its not in the spirit of the game and I think its wrong, but I see how it happens.

Here is my thought though, wasn't it Don Mathis who came up with the idea of a mid-season league with first half stats counting?? Thus the league is named after him. Isn't he the one who has drafted all the DL pitchers? Am I wrong here?

It sounds to me like, he already had this all planned, when he suggested the idea for this draft. I think that is inappropriate, to come up with the rules or the idea and then exploit it!

Oh well, it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:45 pm

I think a bigger minimum innings pitched for the season could be of value.

There is no "spirit of the game"...that is what the rule makers determine prior to creating the rules.

Once the rules are in stone...you try to make money.

Change the rules the following season if needed...but these creative players actually can help fine tune the rules of an event and make it better.

Side Note...Yo Chest!

After the butt whipping' I got from you and the league we were in, in the the Vegas 2005 NFBC Main...I am happy to say I'm representing myself a bit better in the $250 satellite league I'm in this year. I'm currently in a dogfight for 2nd...and have held 1st place for a good part of the season.

Good Luck to you in the main...and hope to see you in Vegas on 2007!

~Lance

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:48 pm

Originally posted by RTKS:

I understand working within the rules to win the league. I understand finding a loop hole within those rules to take advantage. Its not in the spirit of the game and I think its wrong, but I see how it happens.

Here is my thought though, wasn't it Don Mathis who came up with the idea of a mid-season league with first half stats counting?? Thus the league is named after him. Isn't he the one who has drafted all the DL pitchers? Am I wrong here?

It sounds to me like, he already had this all planned, when he suggested the idea for this draft. I think that is inappropriate, to come up with the rules or the idea and then exploit it!

Oh well, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I agree that's a bit squirrely...but everyone had the rules in front of them to exploit as well.

Also...it's only a few weeks into the 2nd half...there's plenty of time for the other teams to do something...it just started!

~Lance

Chest Rockwell · Post by **Chest Rockwell** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:31 pm

Originally posted by RTKS:

I understand working within the rules to win the league. I understand finding a loop hole within those rules to take advantage. Its not in the spirit of the game and I think its wrong, but I see how it happens.

Here is my thought though, wasn't it Don Mathis who came up with the idea of a mid-season league with first half stats counting?? Thus the league is named after him. Isn't he the one who has drafted all the DL pitchers? Am I wrong here?

It sounds to me like, he already had this all planned, when he suggested the idea for this draft. I think that is inappropriate, to come up with the rules or the idea and then exploit it!

Oh well, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think anyone who has ever had the chance to meet Don would tell you he is much more likely to be helping an old lady cross the street right now, then putting together a plan to rip people off. Leave Don alone!

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:08 pm

Originally posted by the AX cuts deep:

I agree strongly with the points SPY makes, both in the July 17, 2006 05:07 PM and July 18, 2006 01:28 PM posts...

In order to replicate REAL baseball managing even more closely, I'd even advocate much more stringent requirements. By that I mean something like a WEEKLY minimum of say, 40 IP.

Few would agree with this part, but in my mind it would be nice to impose an arbitrary penalty, adding 5 Earned Runs and 10 Hit+Walks to the stats for the week for every team which falls short of the minimum innings. Yes...awfully strict, but being a "pitching guy" I really think there should be a heavy emphasis on showing skill in evaluating the talents and potential of the entire Player Universe. If not interested in being that in-depth or allocating the required time to be skilled in all phases of the game...get yourself another hobby

I can't quit laughing. Absurdity at its finest.

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:01 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

quote:Originally posted by RTKS:

I understand working within the rules to win the league. I understand finding a loop hole within those rules to take advantage. Its not in the spirit of the game and I think its wrong, but I see how it happens.

Here is my thought though, wasn't it Don Mathis who came up with the idea of a mid-season league with first half stats counting?? Thus the league is named after him. Isn't he the one who has drafted all the DL pitchers? Am I wrong here?

It sounds to me like, he already had this all planned, when he suggested the idea for this draft. I think that is inappropriate, to come up with the rules or the idea and then exploit it!

Oh well, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I agree that's a bit squirrely...but everyone had the rules in front of them to exploit as well.

Also...it's only a few weeks into the 2nd half...there's plenty of time for the other teams to do something...it just started!

~Lance [/QUOTE]Lance, typically you would be right. However, since 1st half season stats count, 2 of the 3 guys using this strategy have locked up 1st or 2nd place in ERA, Whip, and Save pitching points, and Don is only playing 3 active players. Since they lockedup great MR stats from the 1st half, it would take some kind of miracle to change this.

Just an FYI: 2 of the 3 teams playing this approach have 1st and 2nd place.

Anyway, I didn't want this to become personal against Don, I dont know him personally, but I have seen him on the boards be a great guy. I just wanted a open and good discussion around the usage of thie particular strategy and the rules.

I would suggest a 1000 ip for the entire season, with 500 ip in the second half for 2nd half leagues. Why? Because this would force a combination of atleast a few starters, MRs, and Closers to be drafted. It would enable people who want to use MRs to raise whip and ERA or to go heavy on 3 or 4 closers to do so, but it would also make them have to have 2-4 starters which would create balance. This would allow different strategies, but also make it so that people could not just completely avoid drafting SPs

Again, the point of this thread should be to discuss next year's rules. Don and the other managers who used this in the DM $250 Midseason draft played well within the rules as stated and no issues there (though I am looking at their backside from 4th place !)

WE do need a clarification on exactly what the Mid-season Innings Requirements of "1/3" innings means

Regards,

Spy

[ July 19, 2006, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Spyhunter ]

mdz129 · Post by **mdz129** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:21 am

1/3 innings = one out while your pitcher is on the mound -- how is that difficult to understand?

Spyhunter · Post by **Spyhunter** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:05 pm

Originally posted by mdz129:

1/3 innings = one out while your pitcher is on the mound -- how is that difficult to understand? lol, duh, I know that 1/3 of an inning is. I was trying to understand Greg "1/3 of innings" statement. Did that mean 133 innings(1/3 of 400) in the 2nd half? or 133 innings total (important in mathis draft) or something else

Spy

mdz129 · Post by **mdz129** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:49 pm

It still means 1/3 of an inning-- i.e. one out. Greg is not going make it 133 1/3 innings because of a gramatical snafu.