Public DC's and Fast/Slows

[DOUGHBOYS]

When entering a slow public draft, we roll the dice. We hope that others will go the speed that WE like. For a few, these drafts mean picking at leisure. There are several folks who are attached to their phones and computers. These drafters want picks within minutes.
Public drafts throw these folks together. The result is the same as me going to a hip hop bar or a guy in his early 20's tied to watching 'Gone With the Wind' for an evening. Usually resulting in discontent.

Recently, I've done two 'fast/slow's.
Fast/slows are drafts set up for those with like minds. All drafters know that they owe the other 14 participants the reliability of checking in on the draft often and making picks quickly.
All 30 people in both these drafts came away happy with nary a complaint.

The first draft was NFBC regulars. Not surprisingly, the draft was finished in an amazing 48 hours.
That's right. 50 rounds. 48 hours.
And nobody lost sleep. Well, maybe a couple who put off bed time in hopes of picking again
The chat room was constant. The talk comes as fast as picks in these drafts.
In slower drafts, the chat pace seems to match the picks.

The second draft was interesting. It was put together by Dorian Kinman. A fellow who is not a Message Boards regular, but loves the concept and has had success in the NFBC.
He saw that a fast pace was more to his liking and used the Message Boards to try and put a fast/slow together for anybody.
I tried to recruit for him and ended up joining myself. Ventures like this should succeed.
The draft was a raging success. It'll finish up today. A four day draft.

Some left both of these drafts saying, "THIS is the way drafting should be!"
And it is. Drafting should be fun. When somebody or somebodies do not draft in a public draft the way others would like him to draft, it sucks the fun out of the experience.
It would be great if we didn't have to create these drafts strictly from the Message Boards. Some of these public drafting fellas have never seen the Message Boards. They sign up knowing they'll be either fast or slow and HOPE that others are too.
Why can't we have a draft on the signup page for like minds?
The wording could be something along these lines....

'A fast/slow draft is reserved for those who maintain constant access with phone or computer.
Expectations are that they will draft within minutes of being up in a draft. And if not, communicating to others why they will not.
Most fast/slow picks are made in seconds, some in minutes, hours for the dead of night only'

In a good Draft Championship draft, the clock becomes a non factor.

[Roger Dorn]

I was in the the second Fast/Slow Dan mentioned and it was a great draft. Timely - to the point where some tried to beat the timer - and the live chat kept everyone involved. After this it will be hard to go back to the regular format and risk sitting through 2 round/days. If more fast/slows were offered I could see the number of drafts I enter materially increasing.

[Brian Jenner]

We've been working on the 27 round slow draft portion of a DC Auction from January 9th. We're in round 47. Hangs up on the same guy every round for 8 hours, which is usually in the middle of the day. He's been on the clock for the past 3.5 hours so I guess there won't be any picks until 7:30 tonight, and then at about 9:00 tomorrow morning when it gets back to him it'll pause for another 8 hours as he decides on whether he wants to take either Ryan Raburn or Ezequiel Carrera to be his 13th OF.

[DDK]

Having suffered through some painfully slow drafts, if fast/slows were offered I would commit to them 100%. The recently completed fast/slow was the most enjoyable NFBC draft I have taken part in (was not in the mentioned 48 hour draft, but it sounds awesome). Offering both Fast/slow and leisurely/slow drafts would allow everyone to take part in what they expect from a draft and lessen overall draft conflict.

A shout of thanks to the boys in this last fast/slow...it was a great time.

[Greg Ambrosius]

So is this a new request to have on Registration 8 Hours, 4 Hours and now 1 Hour per pick?? We have asked IT to create a new product and where it says Draft Time it will default to 8 hours and then have a 4 Hour pulldown. Are you asking for a 1 Hour pulldown as well? Let me know so that we can build it correctly so that it's done for this year and forever.

Dan, we aren't against having these fast DCs. There's an audience for 50 rounds in 48 hours just like there was an audience for DC Expresses. At every point we've adjusted these for you guys and now we are going to add a pulldown to separate the New York Minute drafters from the slow drafters. Not everyone wants to do this over 48 hours and not everyone wants to get labeled as a bad person for taking more than an hour per pick, but we'll gladly create a side market that we're apparently not serving right now. We first need to change this on Registration and once we do we'll have it this way forever.

But I have to ask, are we adding 1 new time (4 hours) or two (1 hour)? Tom and I can adjust the clock easily, so if we just have a 4 Hour option and folks agree to a lesser amount of time we can do it, but I want to make sure we're understanding this correctly before IT finishes this addition. Thanks.

[Bama]

Greg, I don't think you get it. we don't want a 1 hour or even a 4 hour clock. some people like to sleep. What we do want the is get though these drafts without having our time needlessly wasted by 2 or 3 guys in a draft that never show up till the clock is about to run out no matter the time of day. you get 2 or 3 people using the 8 hrs as gamesmanship then the whole draft goes to shit, 2 hrs if you turned the clock off at night would be great, a 40 hour total limit would be great. a 1 hour time limit that doesn't allow for sleep is just something that most would not want.

[DDK]

I am for one hour as an option (with the clock turned off for sleeping hours). The 48 hour draft was extreme but this last one took 4 days and was quite reasonable. Those involved still worked and we only exceeded an hour a few times (illness, firemen on calls...quite understandable). A one hour clock would only have been approached in those circumstances in the last fast/slow. And this will simply demand that those involved keep up a substantial qeue as a safety net for unforeseen circumstances that may cause them to go longer.

I do not wish to be presumptuous...but I guess I will

A great adaptation, if possible, would be split qeues...a system that would enable full auto for the turn while switching positions after the first pick. As is, the turn cannot be made in auto if you need more than one position. I don't know if this is possible...but it would greatly enhance the pace at times.

Thanks,
Dorian Kinman

[Gekko]

We've been working on the 27 round slow draft portion of a DC Auction from January 9th. We're in round 47. Hangs up on the same guy every round for 8 hours, which is usually in the middle of the day. He's been on the clock for the past 3.5 hours so I guess there won't be any picks until 7:30 tonight, and then at about 9:00 tomorrow morning when it gets back to him it'll pause for another 8 hours as he decides on whether he wants to take either Ryan Raburn or Ezequiel Carrera to be his 13th OF.

I can confirm this.

Greg - This guy has diminished my interest in DC leagues to the point where I'm holding out until Feb to sign up for more. It's people like this who are costing you DC revenue.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Greg - This guy has diminished my interest in DC leagues to the point where I'm holding out until Feb to sign up for more. It's people like this who are costing you DC revenue.

This is from the AUCTION DC?? And you're mad at me because now he's slow in the draft portion of the satellite auction that Andy and others have formed? And that's costing me future DC business??

Trust me, I get your frustration and Ken's and everyone's on drafters who are too slow. But we can't screen people ahead of time or in this case you're telling me that the auction went well with this guy but he's too slow in the draft part of it. I get it. But c'mon, he's not even in a DC, he's in your satellite auction that's not even part of the DC National Championship.

Even if we built every tool that everyone is requesting, it wouldn't solve everything. We'll start with the different time options and go from there. We'll stick with 8 hours and 4 hours and hope that all who enter a 4-hour option are as committed to FAST as you are. That will be a start.

[Gekko]

Greg,

IF this guy is involved in other Draft Champions (not just this one), he is killing them too.

I'm not sure there's an easy solution other than for people to say when enough is enough. The fun of this league evaporated the minute this guy held us hostage. That's just how I feel. Sorry

[DOUGHBOYS]

Greg,

I'm not asking for a revision of the clock. In a good Draft Championship Draft, the clock is of no importance.
We were humming along so fast in that 48 hour draft, that it seemed like we had to wait a long time for an auto to auto pick for a drafter (15, 20 seconds). Every drafter was having a great time.
Like you said, that is the way we all liked it and some do not like that pace.
What I'm asking for is another selection on the menu that would be for those that like a faster paced slow draft. The modern guy that can draft on his phone while at work or with the family. The older guy who always is near a computer. A faster paced draft is what folks like these want. The worst thing for them is checking a draft and seeing NO movement for two hours.
A horrible sounding analogy is that it should be like taking a dump. Quick, fruitful, and clean. Constipation, which is what a slow drafter is, screws up our system.

In the end, a choice of a faster paced draft with words similar to those of my first post in this thread to let folks know what is required of them.
And that a guy who is driving all day and not drafting, or the fella that has no internet or phone at work need not apply.

[Brian Jenner]

he's not even in a DC, he's in your satellite auction that's not even part of the DC National Championship

Why does this matter? You guys still take a 20% cut and we still have to wait for him, don't we? There have been a couple reasonable suggestions to improve the experience which have been ignored and replaced by the idea of having a 1 hour or 4 hour clock, which I don't think anybody has asked for.

[Greg Ambrosius]

he's not even in a DC, he's in your satellite auction that's not even part of the DC National Championship

Why does this matter? You guys still take a 20% cut and we still have to wait for him, don't we? There have been a couple reasonable suggestions to improve the experience which have been ignored and replaced by the idea of having a 1 hour or 4 hour clock, which I don't think anybody has asked for.

You win, I'm the idiot.

You want different options. That's what I'm proposing we do first. Anyone entering a faster option than 8 hours is committed to not holding you Fasters up. I get it. Do I look like I'm ignoring anyone's wishes?

[Brian Jenner]

I've seen it brought up a few times that the clock could be significantly shortened and then paused during sleeping hours (have the league choose... west coast, east coast, Australian time if there's the demand for it). Or a total of 48 hours (or something) per team to make all of their picks. Those would be solutions to the problem. I know it's impossible to avoid people like this, or to screen for them, and I don't think anybody expects that.

[KJ Duke]

I'm not in favor of having multiple choices for DC signups, all that does is lump the same people into the same drafts. My recommendation would be:

#1 • Post a simple, concise paragraph at the bottom of each DC signup post on the Boards regarding draft etiquette. Also post it at the top of the DC list of rules. I'd be happy to write it subject to your approval and editing as you see fit. Keep this in effect until #2 can be accomplished, and after #2 have a modified version of it still there.

#2 • Pause the clock from midnight to 8am eastern time, but allow picks to be made without the clock moving. Have a 3-hour clock for all drafts from 8am to midnight, eastern. If an East Coast guy goes to bed at 10pm and he's on the clock at midnight, he'll still have 1 hour left when the clock resumes, so he's got 'til 9am before a timeout. On the West Coast the clock would start at 5am, but that still gives us until 8am worst case to make a pick.

I think this would solve at least 90% of the slow draft complaints and result in more leagues. Very few picks take more than 3 hours during the daytime ... and when they go over 3 hours people get annoyed.

[DDK]

After considering this I believe Doughboy is right. That should be no surprise...I've never known him to be wrong Eight hour and four hour distinctions are fine but won't change people's nature. This may even provide more attraction to those who like to use 'others frustration' as a strategy. If they know someone specifically signed up for a faster draft...they will be even more frustrated by someone consistently timing out (even if it's only four hours).

As Dough said...the wording is the best hope. If people sign up with certain expectations being known...then they know they may face the wrath of Greg for not playing nice

And Greg...you've got a great product and lot of people have a lot of fun in these leagues. This is simply a suggestion to this one aspect. It's your baby...do what you feel is best.

[DOUGHBOYS]

I'm not in favor of having multiple choices for DC signups, all that does is lump the same people into the same drafts.

I would have agreed with this till this last draft I was in with a lot of 'not the same people'. These folks have not been given the opportunity for a fast/slow. If not checking the Message Boards, they would not know it was even available.
KJ, there are many out there like us. Fellows who want to knock out drafts.
Your suggestion is along the same thing we are doing now, only with an admonition to be more timely.
The fella at work with no internet will say, 'Screw that, I wanna draft like anybody else' and we're back to square one.
There should be a draft for this fellow. But I don't want him in mine and I know you don't want him in yours.
A separation is needed. If not for the drafters who want to go at a lightning pace, then for those who only check in occasionally.

[KJ Duke]

I'm not in favor of having multiple choices for DC signups, all that does is lump the same people into the same drafts.

I would have agreed with this till this last draft I was in with a lot of 'not the same people'. These folks have not been given the opportunity for a fast/slow. If not checking the Message Boards, they would not know it was even available.
KJ, there are many out there like us. Fellows who want to knock out drafts.
Your suggestion is along the same thing we are doing now, only with an admonition to be more timely.
The fella at work with no internet will say, 'Screw that, I wanna draft like anybody else' and we're back to square one.
There should be a draft for this fellow. But I don't want him in mine and I know you don't want him in yours.
A separation is needed. If not for the drafters who want to go at a lightning pace, then for those who only check in occasionally.

The fella at work that can't check-in within 3 hours, or use auto, has negative value to the NFBC. I come across very few that are in that boat - drafts can be done from the phone - and the few that are in that category are costing you multiples of additional drafts from the rest of the player pool. You're effectively giving shelf space to products that don't turnover enough to justify the opportunity cost of having them there.

And a 3-hour clock is more than an admonition! In just the last two day I have waited for picks of 6-8 primetime hours four times in two drafts. And I lost count in the Lonnie Sparks draft.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I'm not in favor of having multiple choices for DC signups, all that does is lump the same people into the same drafts.

I would have agreed with this till this last draft I was in with a lot of 'not the same people'. These folks have not been given the opportunity for a fast/slow. If not checking the Message Boards, they would not know it was even available.
KJ, there are many out there like us. Fellows who want to knock out drafts.

I'm already working on a second option for the DCs, but that was my concern as well KJ, that the same drafters would appear there. But as Dan said, maybe there's a bigger audience of drafters out there who want the faster pace. Forget the fact that it's going to be listed as 4 hours, we'll create this second pulldown or separate product on Registration, explain it well and see if that helps. At the very least, this will create like-minded drafters who went out of their way to select a faster option. That can't be a bad thing.

I'll see how we can get this done a little more quickly since it's a hot topic and report back. If someone purposely signs up for a faster DC and still slows things down then we'll come up with an even better plan!!

[DOUGHBOYS]

I'm no business guy, but do know that a bad customer's money is as good as the good customer.
And truth be told, this fella is not a bad customer. He just wants to draft like the rest of us, but his job or something else gets in his way.
If he were in a draft with names called out on the Boards, he would feel right at home.
A separation of fast/slow and a public DC would give him a choice, as it would for the rest of us.

[Bama]

I'm no business guy, but do know that a bad customer's money is as good as the good customer.
And truth be told, this fella is not a bad customer. He just wants to draft like the rest of us, but his job or something else gets in his way.
If he were in a draft with names called out on the Boards, he would feel right at home.
A separation of fast/slow and a public DC would give him a choice, as it would for the rest of us.

I think I stated this somewhere else but when you have these options that your propsing Dan is that you either get a 2 to five day draft with a bunch of sharks or a 18 to 30 day draft with some not so experienced guys. I think the majority would like something in between.

[carl_laslo]

Got another one in DC 45....He can use his phone to taunt us on the message board for 3 hours, but he can't use it to make his pick.

On the turn timed out 8 hours, and his next pick is still going. All because he wants to do his research on a "computer". Been on the clock since before 9 am central time this morning.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Ken, I get what you're saying.
Let me give you this assessment.
There was a fella who played fantasy football this year. He entered 80-90 Draft Championships.
Hardly cashed.
Is he a shark?
The results say no.
Still, HE has to feel that he is a shark. He wouldn't have entered that many times unless he has money to burn or felt very confident in his abilities.
And believe me, there are many folks who feel they are sharks. (Who wants to be called a guppie? )

Only the results will tell us if fast/slows will be filled with sharks.
I'm betting that pace or quickness of drafts are as or even more important than opponents in the draft. And that many more will enter than expected.

[KJ Duke]

I'm no business guy, but do know that a bad customer's money is as good as the good customer.
And truth be told, this fella is not a bad customer. He just wants to draft like the rest of us, but his job or something else gets in his way.
If he were in a draft with names called out on the Boards, he would feel right at home.
A separation of fast/slow and a public DC would give him a choice, as it would for the rest of us.

Here is my problem Dan, if you create separate 4-hour and 8-hour drafts, and I'm not being hypothetical here ...

1) I am going to assume the 4-hour has better drafters and thus my ROI is worse. So I don't want to play many of them.
2) I am going to assume the 8-hour has worse drafters and thus my ROI is better. But this also gives license to the worst drafters to be even slower, so I don't want to play many of them either. I want the same mix of players in all leagues.

Net result, I play less DCs. Not joking, that will be the end result for me. To me it creates two separate contests lumped into one, and the more enjoyable one will be harder to win. I hate that solution.

I've done 9 or 10 DCs already this year and I can tell you unequivocally that it is easier to get the players I want in the slowest ones. So if Greg follows through on this, my draft spigot is either shut down for the season or wayyy slowed down.

[DOUGHBOYS]

We're thinking too much of ourselves, Kevin.
We're the old guard more than sharks.
Like the new crop of poker players, we just stand in the way of their fame!
There are many new drafters who want to kick our asses. I love that.
We wouldn't play the Main Event against the best players in the country if it was all about return of investment.

In my world, I am thinking that a separation of fast and slow drafters would just be the start to getting most drafters on the same page. In the future, that 90% of drafters will choose the fast/slow option because technology more fits them.
The public drafts or slow/slows would be the slow bus.
You're thinking the slow bus may be a bonanza for a shark. I don't feel that way. If a fella is limited at work, it does not make him a bad fantasy player. Only that he is limited in time.
If a shark wants to take that route and pull his hair out, that would be up to him in whether it is worth it.

Edit- And I do not care about the clock. I just want drafters to know that there is a clear difference between a public draft and a fast/slow draft.