Off Season Blockbusters!

[Edwards Kings]

It's clear that the Braves think their prospect pitchers are suspect.

To a certain extent, maybe. Ellis was the "second" guy in the Simmons trade and something like the 10th best pitching prospect in the system.

Over the last three years, it has been impossible to think along with this franchise. They have had more turnover than probably any Major League team during that time.

Not defending, but trying to take some of the noise out of all the activity, it looks like most of the better arms will be in AA or AAA this year, so the one year agreements seem to make sense even if I do not necessarily get the personnel. As to the turnover, in all of that they have gained:

Swanson - you know me, I like to see a few years before I pass judgement, but he will turn 23 next year and looks like he could be in the position for a while. Cost the Braves Shelby Miller who cost the Braves Heyward. And we all know how much you love Heyward.

Mallex Smith - also remains to be seen, but got him in late 2014 for Justin Upton. Also got (and still with the organization) Max Fried, Dustin Peterson (pretty good season last year in AA), and spot-holder Jace Peterson. Smith had 16 SB in something like 205 PA and is only 23.

Ender Inciarte - another part of the Braves taking advantage of their drunk date Arizona. Batted .291 with a .351 OBP to go with his 16 SB. 26 years old and in first year of arbitration.

So with home-grown Freeman (27) and Albies (turns 20 this January and may be up this year), that is a pretty good young core of starters for your offense. Need a catcher and a third-baseman primarily.

On pitching, Teheran is not a lock down #1, but I think he is a solid #2. Been around forever, under control for a few more years and will turn 26 in January.

Foltynewicz - Is 25, showed an average 95+ FB to go with a slider and curve plus a little CU action. Improving one of his third offerings would help. Got him (and Rio Ruiz) from Houston for a DH, which the Braves cannot use, but sure liked in Gattis.

Wisler - Is 24. Got him for Kimbrel and Melvin and also got Jordan Paroubeck. Don't know if Wisler will pan out, but has a 93 mph fastball and an 82 mph slider. Needs a major league third pitch.

Blair - Is 24. Struggled. FB (91 mph), CB and CU. I still think there is good here.

Vizcaino - 26. Got him for LaStella. Nice.

Fried - 23 in January. Low 90's FB, plus curve and working a CU. TJS in 2015, so last year was first year back. Part of the Justin Upton trade. Probably moving to AA this year.

Toussant - From the Diamondbacks for eating salary. 20. FB a plus, CB a plus, and major league changeup. Probably moving to AA.

Braves have also drafted Allard, Anderson, Soroka, Wentz. All highly ranked in the organization, over Ellis, and all a few years away.

OK. Defending.

Are they better off than they were three years ago? Flat out, I really don't know.

Next year? Probably if they can avoid sleeping-in all of April and May. Long-term? Yes, I think so. The churn is not over. More younger prospects (pitcher and MI) may go to address catcher and 3B.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Yeah, defending

I'm right smack dab square on the fence when it comes to the Braves. Besides the Arizona deal, they've really only improved their prospect base. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it is also fool's gold.
The Rays have been spinning their tires for years with good minor league players who are brought up to the top level, only to be mediocre. It hasn't worked for them.
Three years ago, the Braves were Freddie Freeman and others.
Three years later, they are Freddie Freeman and others.
Some of these kids need to step up and show they belong. It probably won't come from the pitching side this year. One year contracts to veterans stifle chances for prospect hurlers to take that step.
The Braves minor league system was ranked second at the beginning of the 2016 season by MLB and Baseball America. By the end of the year, they were ranked ninth. Which means that the performance level of those prospects did not meet expectations.
Personally, I have faith in Swanson, Folty, and Albies, but not much else. But, that is just personal opinion which means as much as your defense of the Braves

In short, I want the Braves to succeed. The world is a better place when former superstation teams like the Cubs and Braves are enjoying good years. Plus the fact that I have never (cover your eyes Glenn, Alan, Mikey, and Marc) been a fan of the Mets or Nats organizations. I'll hope for the best.

[Edwards Kings]

Really? I did not have them falling that far especially given they had a pretty good draft. Ian Anderson, Joey Wentz and and even Kyle Muller all pitched well after being picked up in this year's draft. Kevin Maitan I think was the No. 1 international prospect and the Braves got him. Yes, low level ML talent, but all-in-all a pretty strong year, prospect wise. 2018, 2019, and 2020 could be fun to watch.

Well...we can settle it the way real men do...Dorito eating contest!

[DOUGHBOYS]

Really? I did not have them falling that far especially given they had a pretty good draft. Ian Anderson, Joey Wentz and and even Kyle Muller all pitched well after being picked up in this year's draft. Kevin Maitan I think was the No. 1 international prospect and the Braves got him. Yes, low level ML talent, but all-in-all a pretty strong year, prospect wise. 2018, 2019, and 2020 could be fun to watch.

Well...we can settle it the way real men do...Dorito eating contest!

I'd be the Freddie Freeman to your prospects when it comes to a Doritos eating contest!

To be honest, I disregard success at the lower levels. Unless they stand head and shoulders above their compettion.
In five years of working at our particular lower level of the minors, I have only seen two such players.
Corey Seager and David Dahl.
Seager was so good, I thought he could of gone straight from College to the Bigs.
Riley Pint is a high school kid who was taken fourth overall by the Rockies last year. He throws 100 mph and when I saw him, I felt sorry for those knee-knocking 16 year olds that had to face him.
But, in the rookie league that Pint came to, it was flush with college graduates and Latin players who have seen that velocity. He did ok, but if one were to only look at statistics, he could be termed as questionable moving forward.
The same thing happened to Jon Gray.
Lower leagues are the introduction to professional baseball. Getting used to playing every day and staying on the road for long periods.
If the stats are good, it's a bonus. I don't believe in it being a sign that a player will be at the top level in so many years.
Fans of teams love to look at the prospects, forgetting that most will never even see that top level.

[DOUGHBOYS]

This conversation is what I love about baseball. If a team does not perform well at the top level, fans will look at their minor league system and have hope.
They can't do that in Football.They can't do that in basketball.
THANKS Branch Rickey!

[DOUGHBOYS]

'ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reports that the Braves are still interested in Chris Sale and Chris Archer.
The Braves have replenished their rotation depth this offseason with the additions of R.A. Dickey, Bartolo Colon and Jaime Garcia. They might not necessarily be looking to add another starter, but if it's someone on another level like Sale or Archer they'd apparently be open to it. Not surprisingly, Crasnick notes that the Braves prefer Sale. He also says they're "very reluctant" to part with infield prospect Ozzie Albies in any deal but are "getting a lot of hits" on him.'

Round and round she goes!
Where it stops?
Nobody knows!

[Yah Mule]

It's fun to look at the production of major league stars when they were in the low minors. Most of the hitters put up great slash lines and pitchers post K rates they'll never approach again. But you also see stuff like Derek Jeter making 98 errors in his first two seasons (240 games) of professional baseball. It took Randy Johnson three years to get his BB rate under 7. He started the next season in AAA anyway and finished the year in Montreal.

[Yah Mule]

'ESPN's Jerry Crasnick reports that the Braves are still interested in Chris Sale and Chris Archer.
The Braves have replenished their rotation depth this offseason with the additions of R.A. Dickey, Bartolo Colon and Jaime Garcia. They might not necessarily be looking to add another starter, but if it's someone on another level like Sale or Archer they'd apparently be open to it. Not surprisingly, Crasnick notes that the Braves prefer Sale. He also says they're "very reluctant" to part with infield prospect Ozzie Albies in any deal but are "getting a lot of hits" on him.'

Round and round she goes!
Where it stops?
Nobody knows!

I hope the White Sox hold strong on Sale. He's team controlled at way below his market value for the next three years. I would demand nothing less than an organization's top prospect and more for this fairly unique opportunity to land a low cost ace for multiple seasons.

[headhunters]

again- EVERY team is interested in sale. i can't believe a guy can get away with writing that the "the braves are reluctant to part with ozzie albies" for chris sale. ozzie albies is 5'9 and 150lbs. and a second basemen. unless they plan on him being joe morgan- that is a joke.

[headhunters]

and btw- the braves should not trade for sale- where they are on the win curve screams NO. the dodgers and nats and red sox should trade for sale.

[Bronx Yankees]

again- EVERY team is interested in sale. i can't believe a guy can get away with writing that the "the braves are reluctant to part with ozzie albies" for chris sale. ozzie albies is 5'9 and 150lbs. and a second basemen. unless they plan on him being joe morgan- that is a joke.

Totally agree. Sale is a stud. I'm not sure there are many - if any - prospects that have a ceiling as high as Sale's existing level. I confess I don't understand why the White Sox seem willing to trade him, but, if they do, they should be demanding a king's ransom. If the Braves are reluctant to trade Albies, it just means they are not serious about getting Sale because it's going to cost a lot more.

Mike

[NorCalAtlFan]

stick to your own forum dan!

with his pedigree, price, etc, Sale should command an incredible package. just have to look at what the yankees got for chapman and miller. anyone know if dave stewart is working in their fo?

[DOUGHBOYS]

again- EVERY team is interested in sale. i can't believe a guy can get away with writing that the "the braves are reluctant to part with ozzie albies" for chris sale. ozzie albies is 5'9 and 150lbs. and a second basemen. unless they plan on him being joe morgan- that is a joke.

Totally agree. Sale is a stud. I'm not sure there are many - if any - prospects that have a ceiling as high as Sale's existing level. I confess I don't understand why the White Sox seem willing to trade him, but, if they do, they should be demanding a king's ransom. If the Braves are reluctant to trade Albies, it just means they are not serious about getting Sale because it's going to cost a lot more.

Mike

I believe the reason they are entertaining offers for Sale is not because of production.
He was vocal about the Adam LaRoche affair and was suspended for not wearing a throwback uni.
It could be that he has become hard for for ChiSox ownership to deal with.
It'll be intriguing to see the return on the trade. It BETTER be a lot.
There is on;y one Chris Sale and at that price, the Sox have to get difference makers

[DOUGHBOYS]

stick to your own forum dan!

[DOUGHBOYS]

By the way, is there anything worse than these sort of rotoworld updates?....

'Jon Heyman of FanRag Sports reports that the Nationals are considering Adam Eaton, Dexter Fowler, Carlos Gomez and Ian Desmond as backup options for center field'

EVERY team is considering free agents!
Picking four center fielders and 'reporting' that a center fielder-needy team is considering them is 'REDUNDANCY 101'
No matter the McCutchen rumors

[headhunters]

btw- more chris sale. sale did not cut up that uniform because it was a throwback. the sox players- and other teams as well- try on various throw back uniforms before the season for comfort and fit. sale had REPEATEDLY told sox management that particular throwback was uncomfortable and would they please not use it on a day he pitched. he told them this either before the season or well in advance of his start. . in my extreme minority opinion- sox management was completely wrong here. sale thought it would hurt his chances of pitching well- and the sox did not care.

[Deadheadz]

btw- more chris sale. sale did not cut up that uniform because it was a throwback. the sox players- and other teams as well- try on various throw back uniforms before the season for comfort and fit. sale had REPEATEDLY told sox management that particular throwback was uncomfortable and would they please not use it on a day he pitched. he told them this either before the season or well in advance of his start. . in my extreme minority opinion- sox management was completely wrong here. sale thought it would hurt his chances of pitching well- and the sox did not care.

the perfect endorsement deal...

[Bronx Yankees]

again- EVERY team is interested in sale. i can't believe a guy can get away with writing that the "the braves are reluctant to part with ozzie albies" for chris sale. ozzie albies is 5'9 and 150lbs. and a second basemen. unless they plan on him being joe morgan- that is a joke.

Totally agree. Sale is a stud. I'm not sure there are many - if any - prospects that have a ceiling as high as Sale's existing level. I confess I don't understand why the White Sox seem willing to trade him, but, if they do, they should be demanding a king's ransom. If the Braves are reluctant to trade Albies, it just means they are not serious about getting Sale because it's going to cost a lot more.

Mike

I believe the reason they are entertaining offers for Sale is not because of production.
He was vocal about the Adam LaRoche affair and was suspended for not wearing a throwback uni.
It could be that he has become hard for for ChiSox ownership to deal with.
It'll be intriguing to see the return on the trade. It BETTER be a lot.
There is on;y one Chris Sale and at that price, the Sox have to get difference makers

If the White Sox are thinking of trading Sale because of the LaRoche and throwback uniform affairs, then I think they have even more problems than they realize. The LaRoche situation seemingly was handled poorly by both sides (the Sox and LaRoche) and Sale wasn't the only player upset over the situation. In any event, it is long over. I agree with Mike's post on the throwback uniform. The White Sox knew Sale found that uniform to be uncomfortable and they chose to go with it for marketing purposes over the comfort of their starting pitcher and the possible outcome of his start. While his reaction was over-the-top, I kind of understand where he was coming from. I'm guessing most teams do not force their ace pitchers to wear uniforms that they hate and find uncomfortable on their start days. While Sale probably could control his emotions better, in both situations I think he was reacting to decisions that, in his mind, hurt his team's chances to win. I kind of like players that have a burning desire to win. If I'm the manager or the general manager of the White Sox, I'm trying (within reason) to keep my stars happy and build around them. Most rebuilding teams try to accumulate prospects in the hopes that one of them even approaches the level that Sale is at now.

While I'm on the topic of the White Sox, I confess I do not understand why they appear intent of trading their best player - who is a top five starting pitcher with an extremely team-friendly contract (i.e., an owner's dream). When I look at the Sox, I see the core of a great rotation with Sale, Quintana and Rodon. I see a solid but not elite bullpen headed by Robertson and Jones. I see power (Abreu, Frazier) and speed (Anderson, Eaton). They are far from a perfect team, but it is not like they don't have some nice pieces. With the Twins lacking any pitching, the Royals potentially taking another step back, and the Tigers on the verge of selling, I'd be inclined to try to add to what I have rather than dismantle this team. Of course, when I say add, I mean smart adds (i.e., the opposite of acquiring James Shields).

Mike

[Yah Mule]

If the White Sox are thinking of trading Sale because of the LaRoche and throwback uniform affairs, then I think they have even more problems than they realize. The LaRoche situation seemingly was handled poorly by both sides (the Sox and LaRoche) and Sale wasn't the only player upset over the situation. In any event, it is long over. I agree with Mike's post on the throwback uniform. The White Sox knew Sale found that uniform to be uncomfortable and they chose to go with it for marketing purposes over the comfort of their starting pitcher and the possible outcome of his start. While his reaction was over-the-top, I kind of understand where he was coming from. I'm guessing most teams do not force their ace pitchers to wear uniforms that they hate and find uncomfortable on their start days. While Sale probably could control his emotions better, in both situations I think he was reacting to decisions that, in his mind, hurt his team's chances to win. I kind of like players that have a burning desire to win. If I'm the manager or the general manager of the White Sox, I'm trying (within reason) to keep my stars happy and build around them. Most rebuilding teams try to accumulate prospects in the hopes that one of them even approaches the level that Sale is at now.

While I'm on the topic of the White Sox, I confess I do not understand why they appear intent of trading their best player - who is a top five starting pitcher with an extremely team-friendly contract (i.e., an owner's dream). When I look at the Sox, I see the core of a great rotation with Sale, Quintana and Rodon. I see a solid but not elite bullpen headed by Robertson and Jones. I see power (Abreu, Frazier) and speed (Anderson, Eaton). They are far from a perfect team, but it is not like they don't have some nice pieces. With the Twins lacking any pitching, the Royals potentially taking another step back, and the Tigers on the verge of selling, I'd be inclined to try to add to what I have rather than dismantle this team. Of course, when I say add, I mean smart adds (i.e., the opposite of acquiring James Shields).

Mike

Most managers would accept a bit of prima donna behavior to hand the ball to an ace like Sale every five days.

Randy Johnson spent half a season in Houston - where he was lights out, even by his standards. One game, the Houston manager notices Randy is nowhere in sight as the seventh or eighth inning is about to start. Soon word filters back that he's in the shower. That's how Larry Dierker learned that Unit would sometimes remove himself from games at his own discretion.

Also, the people who think Atlanta is too far away for Sale should be reminded that Randy Johnson signed with the 97 loss DBacks and they won 100 games the next season with their new ace leading the way.

[Edwards Kings]

While I'm on the topic of the White Sox, I confess I do not understand why they appear intent of trading their best player - who is a top five starting pitcher with an extremely team-friendly contract (i.e., an owner's dream). When I look at the Sox, I see the core of a great rotation with Sale, Quintana and Rodon. I see a solid but not elite bullpen headed by Robertson and Jones. I see power (Abreu, Frazier) and speed (Anderson, Eaton). They are far from a perfect team, but it is not like they don't have some nice pieces. With the Twins lacking any pitching, the Royals potentially taking another step back, and the Tigers on the verge of selling, I'd be inclined to try to add to what I have rather than dismantle this team. Of course, when I say add, I mean smart adds (i.e., the opposite of acquiring James Shields).

Mike

Totally agree Mike. They have a lot of very affordable pieces so their cumulative team salary is below the middle. Need a catcher. An outfielder. A starting pitcher if Carson Fulmer is not ready. Not that many missing pieces.

[DOUGHBOYS]

If the White Sox are thinking of trading Sale because of the LaRoche and throwback uniform affairs, then I think they have even more problems than they realize. The LaRoche situation seemingly was handled poorly by both sides (the Sox and LaRoche) and Sale wasn't the only player upset over the situation. In any event, it is long over. I agree with Mike's post on the throwback uniform. The White Sox knew Sale found that uniform to be uncomfortable and they chose to go with it for marketing purposes over the comfort of their starting pitcher and the possible outcome of his start. While his reaction was over-the-top, I kind of understand where he was coming from. I'm guessing most teams do not force their ace pitchers to wear uniforms that they hate and find uncomfortable on their start days. While Sale probably could control his emotions better, in both situations I think he was reacting to decisions that, in his mind, hurt his team's chances to win. I kind of like players that have a burning desire to win. If I'm the manager or the general manager of the White Sox, I'm trying (within reason) to keep my stars happy and build around them. Most rebuilding teams try to accumulate prospects in the hopes that one of them even approaches the level that Sale is at now.

While I'm on the topic of the White Sox, I confess I do not understand why they appear intent of trading their best player - who is a top five starting pitcher with an extremely team-friendly contract (i.e., an owner's dream). When I look at the Sox, I see the core of a great rotation with Sale, Quintana and Rodon. I see a solid but not elite bullpen headed by Robertson and Jones. I see power (Abreu, Frazier) and speed (Anderson, Eaton). They are far from a perfect team, but it is not like they don't have some nice pieces. With the Twins lacking any pitching, the Royals potentially taking another step back, and the Tigers on the verge of selling, I'd be inclined to try to add to what I have rather than dismantle this team. Of course, when I say add, I mean smart adds (i.e., the opposite of acquiring James Shields).

Mike

Most managers would accept a bit of prima donna behavior to hand the ball to an ace like Sale every five days.

Randy Johnson spent half a season in Houston - where he was lights out, even by his standards. One game, the Houston manager notices Randy is nowhere in sight as the seventh or eighth inning is about to start. Soon word filters back that he's in the shower. That's how Larry Dierker learned that Unit would sometimes remove himself from games at his own discretion.

Also, the people who think Atlanta is too far away for Sale should be reminded that Randy Johnson signed with the 97 loss DBacks and they won 100 games the next season with their new ace leading the way.

We don't know of the extent of the chasm between the White Sox and Sale.
We know about LaRoche and we know about the throwbacks.
For every story we know, there are probably many we don't.
Sale may have asked the Sox for a trade. We just plain don't know.
What seems to be known is that even with a sweetheart deal over the next three years, the club is shopping him heavy.
That alone tells us there is more than just annoyance one or from both parties involved.

We have it easy.
We process the information we do know and say that the White Sox are making a mistake in trading Sale.
We only know production.
Putting Sale up for Sale is clearly not about production.
I would almost wager that whoever they get for Sale will not match what he would give them over the next three years.

[Yah Mule]

If the White Sox are thinking of trading Sale because of the LaRoche and throwback uniform affairs, then I think they have even more problems than they realize. The LaRoche situation seemingly was handled poorly by both sides (the Sox and LaRoche) and Sale wasn't the only player upset over the situation. In any event, it is long over. I agree with Mike's post on the throwback uniform. The White Sox knew Sale found that uniform to be uncomfortable and they chose to go with it for marketing purposes over the comfort of their starting pitcher and the possible outcome of his start. While his reaction was over-the-top, I kind of understand where he was coming from. I'm guessing most teams do not force their ace pitchers to wear uniforms that they hate and find uncomfortable on their start days. While Sale probably could control his emotions better, in both situations I think he was reacting to decisions that, in his mind, hurt his team's chances to win. I kind of like players that have a burning desire to win. If I'm the manager or the general manager of the White Sox, I'm trying (within reason) to keep my stars happy and build around them. Most rebuilding teams try to accumulate prospects in the hopes that one of them even approaches the level that Sale is at now.

While I'm on the topic of the White Sox, I confess I do not understand why they appear intent of trading their best player - who is a top five starting pitcher with an extremely team-friendly contract (i.e., an owner's dream). When I look at the Sox, I see the core of a great rotation with Sale, Quintana and Rodon. I see a solid but not elite bullpen headed by Robertson and Jones. I see power (Abreu, Frazier) and speed (Anderson, Eaton). They are far from a perfect team, but it is not like they don't have some nice pieces. With the Twins lacking any pitching, the Royals potentially taking another step back, and the Tigers on the verge of selling, I'd be inclined to try to add to what I have rather than dismantle this team. Of course, when I say add, I mean smart adds (i.e., the opposite of acquiring James Shields).

Mike

Most managers would accept a bit of prima donna behavior to hand the ball to an ace like Sale every five days.

Randy Johnson spent half a season in Houston - where he was lights out, even by his standards. One game, the Houston manager notices Randy is nowhere in sight as the seventh or eighth inning is about to start. Soon word filters back that he's in the shower. That's how Larry Dierker learned that Unit would sometimes remove himself from games at his own discretion.

Also, the people who think Atlanta is too far away for Sale should be reminded that Randy Johnson signed with the 97 loss DBacks and they won 100 games the next season with their new ace leading the way.

We don't know of the extent of the chasm between the White Sox and Sale.
We know about LaRoche and we know about the throwbacks.
For every story we know, there are probably many we don't.
Sale may have asked the Sox for a trade. We just plain don't know.
What seems to be known is that even with a sweetheart deal over the next three years, the club is shopping him heavy.
That alone tells us there is more than just annoyance one or from both parties involved.

We have it easy.
We process the information we do know and say that the White Sox are making a mistake in trading Sale.
We only know production.
Putting Sale up for Sale is clearly not about production.
I would almost wager that whoever they get for Sale will not match what he would give them over the next three years.

There are plenty of stories on every team we don't know about. Sale has no leverage, so his trade request is completely at the White Sox discretion. Another thing we don't know is exactly how hard he's being shopped. One thing we do know is baseball writers have precious little to talk about during this unusually dead time of year. Some of these guys figure it's more fun to speculate about Sale coming to the team they cover than it would be to look up information on Zac Curtis. For their part, the White Sox can always say that anyone is available for the right price. I don't think Kenny Williams parts with him unless someone brings a Bregman or Urias type player to the table.

[DOUGHBOYS]

And for us, it's a lot more intriguing than looking up stats on Zac Curtis as well!

[whale4evr]

Possibly something in his medicals? That delivery was always something the industry believed would cause arm problems at some point. Better to trade guys like that one year too early I guess.

[Bronx Yankees]

Possibly something in his medicals? That delivery was always something the industry believed would cause arm problems at some point. Better to trade guys like that one year too early I guess.

That may be a factor, although from a fantasy perspective, I've come around from the other direction. I used to be leery about drafting Sale because he looked like an arm or shoulder injury waiting to happen but, over the last two years, I've drafted him readily figuring that if his delivery hasn't led to an injury by now, perhaps it never will. Some motions seem to contribute to injuries (e.g., Strasburg), while other guys seem able to pitch with unusual deliveries without consequences. Of course, you just never know when it comes to injuries ....

Mike