Batting Average vs. OBP: Let's Discuss For The NFBC

[Greg Ambrosius]

We have had very few rules changes in the NFBC since our inception in 2004 and in many ways that's a good thing. But I'm never afraid to look at ways we can better the game and in that respect I have a subject I'd like to discuss.

Rotisserie Baseball started as a 4x4 contest until the industry felt that adding Runs and Strikeouts made the game better. Honestly, I can't imagine Rotisserie without Runs and Strikeouts, so thanks to the feedback of the players we have a better game today than we did in the 1980s.

While we have 10 great categories to measure teams today, one rule change that merits discussion for the NFBC is Batting Average and whether that is the best category to analyze hitters. The problem with Batting Average is that it doesn't give credit for a Walk, which as we know since Little League "is as good as a hit." On Base Percentage adds in credit for walks and may be a better indicator of analyzing hitters than Batting Average.

But not everyone is used to analyzing OBP. It would create a slightly different game than a lot of people are used to playing. I'm fine with sticking with Batting Average, but the NFBC is a leader in the industry and maybe it's time to consider this change. If a "walk is as good as a hit" and we're not including it (outside of Runs that is) then maybe we should consider using this metric.

So here's the question of the day:

Which category would you rather have in the NFBC to evaluate hitters:
Batting Average
On Base Percentage

Again, most players are familiar with Batting Average and analyzing hitters that way. Most local leagues still use BA and thus it's an easy transition to our game. That being said, OBP is a much more common statistic today than it ever was and we could be leading the way with this move. The key would be asking whether it makes the game better or worse. I need your help to understand that.

Anyway, I think it's a worthy discussion and something to think about starting in 2018, not 2017. Maybe there's little appetite for OBP in the NFBC, but I thought I'd ask. Let's hear from the masses to see whether it's time to consider this change or to keep our 5x5 categories as they are.

Thanks. The floor is open for debate.

[KJ Duke]

OBP caters to the sabermetrics crowd, it adds absolutely nothing to the fantasy game.

What changes for the fantasy player is that we have to project out a player's walk rate and change one column from X to Z. Exciting stuff.

There are hundreds of ways to change the game to make it more appealing/exciting. This isn't one of them. I suspect the change would make stathead ideologists happy (and emboldened to push for other categories to be changed in the future that better match their value analysis) while most others would just be slightly annoyed.

[COZ]

Not in favor of changing to OBP & in fact am strongly opposed to any change, leave Batting Average as the category. OBP to me is already incorporated in a correalative though indirect way to the Runs category and should not be incorporated nor replace BA as a category. I am opposed to this for many reasons but primarily because it greatly changes the calculus on evaluating players but more importantly high contact, high batting average is an elite skill that should be valued & not be put on the same level as high strikeout, high walk guys a la Adam Dunn. An interesting question & discussion nonetheless.

[Hollenole]

Put me down for OBP. Also would love to go to Saves + Holds.

[headhunters]

batting average. the reason people win has nothing to do with what we look for- it is how they look for it.

[Bronx Yankees]

Strong preference for batting average (and maintaining saves as a category). I'm a traditionalist and prefer the existing categories to any alternatives. (And, by the way, a walk is as good as a hit only in certain circumstances, e.g., the bases are empty, the hit is a single and no runners advance more than one base; in other circumstances, hits are much better than walks. )

Importantly, if the NFBC ever does contemplate changing roto categories, such decision should be made much earlier in the off-season in deference to folks who already are well into their 2017 preparations in reliance on the same ten categories being used.

Just my two cents. Thanks.

Mike

[headhunters]

yes- I agree with mike. can't change this year now. gecko- for example- has about 5,000 hours of prep in already.

[Money]

yes- I agree with mike. can't change this year now. gecko- for example- has about 5,000 hours of prep in already.

The initial post from Greg asking for opinions clearly stated that this was for consideration for 2018, not 2017.

[Happenstance]

I've played in both types of leagues (BA or OBP) and have no preference. As others have already said, I agree that it doesn't improve the fantasy game at all. While it changes the relative value of certain players, it doesn't affect the fun or frustration I have with the games.

I suspect going to SV+H would be much more likely to affect actual strategy and enjoyment of the fantasy game, but haven't thought enough about it yet - it's just a hunch at this point.

[Bjs2025]

OBP!!! I HATE watching a game and knowing that when my player walks it means virtually nothing. OBP OBP OBP OBP

[Bjs2025]

Not in favor of changing to OBP & in fact am strongly opposed to any change, leave Batting Average as the category. OBP to me is already incorporated in a correalative though indirect way to the Runs category and should not be incorporated nor replace BA as a category. I am opposed to this for many reasons but primarily because it greatly changes the calculus on evaluating players but more importantly high contact, high batting average is an elite skill that should be valued & not be put on the same level as high strikeout, high walk guys a la Adam Dunn. An interesting question & discussion nonetheless.

Adam Dunn is not s good example. A guy like Adam Dunn or Lucas Duda would get a minor bump, deservedly so as its part of their skill set. It's not like suddenly Carlos Santana is a 1st round pick and Jose Altuve drops to the back of the 2nd. I think it's great to use OBP which obviously includes batting average skill. Adam Dunn would still suck pretty bad.

[Ando]

Average.
I've never played in an OBP league and have no desire to.

[NorCalAtlFan]

BA.

nerds, nerds, nerds!

and please for the love of god, no Saves + Holds!

[Greg Ambrosius]

First of all, I said this was a discussion for 2018, not 2017. I hate fake news.

I didn't say anything about Saves + Holds. Hijacking a thread.

Okay, keep the feedback coming on BA vs. OBP. I'm just looking for feedback and I'm getting it. Thanks all.

[KJ Duke]

First of all, I said this was a discussion for 2018, not 2017. I hate fake news.

Best press conference in almost 30 years.

FAKE.jpg (33.32 KiB) Viewed 6631 times

[Millertime]

OBP

[Big League Wood]

Batting Average

[Greg Ambrosius]

First of all, I said this was a discussion for 2018, not 2017. I hate fake news.

Best press conference in almost 30 years.

Please get your dog back as your avatar. He's so much better looking than your current avatar!!

[Deadheadz]

While we have 10 great categories to measure teams today, one rule change that merits discussion for the NFBC is Batting Average and whether that is the best category to analyze hitters.

Is the point of Roto to analyze players?

My vote is to continue using AVG in the Roto contests with overall prizes and offer OBP in private leagues.
If there comes a time when there's so many people playing in the private leagues you can't ignore their uptrend, then attempt to offer both and see which gets more signups.

Can you imagine changing the core game and finding out after the fact that it was a mistake?
Baby steps.

.

[Deadheadz]

Strong preference for batting average (and maintaining saves as a category).

+1

nerds, nerds, nerds!

and please for the love of god, no Saves + Holds!

+2

.

[KJ Duke]

First of all, I said this was a discussion for 2018, not 2017. I hate fake news.

Best press conference in almost 30 years.

Please get your dog back as your avatar. He's so much better looking than your current avatar!!

Fixed. New dog pic, the current alpha.

[Walla Walla]

I'm for Batting AVG. OBP as a replacement is a Ron Shandler Ploy. He changed the Trout wars to this format. It gave his invite games a change from the Labr leagues.

[Baseball Furies]

OBP caters to the sabermetrics crowd, it adds absolutely nothing to the fantasy game.

What changes for the fantasy player is that we have to project out a player's walk rate and change one column from X to Z. Exciting stuff.

There are hundreds of ways to change the game to make it more appealing/exciting. This isn't one of them. I suspect the change would make stathead ideologists happy (and emboldened to push for other categories to be changed in the future that better match their value analysis) while most others would just be slightly annoyed.

Perfectly stated...especially the part about the "hundreds of ways to change and make the game more appealing/exciting". This what many of us have been pushing for for years, and the first toe dipped into these waters is OBP vs. BA?!! Please. I sincerely hope that the new Sports Hub brain trust has better plans in store for changes to the game than this.

[Doctor Who]

So far what I have read is exactly what I expected from this crowd. Before I get clobbered for that statement, read on. I'm on the side of keeping batting average as the counting stat as those with tons of experience like most of us here, know how to calculate it and can use our experience better in predicting it (which makes some of us money ).

These are my thoughts. I think BA will be the popular vote (and backed by entry fee money) now, but can see OBP used down the line in the future by more and more leagues and can see why you want to be the leader in the change Greg. Ballparks have started to post it on scoreboards instead of BA (a la Houston- who are sabernerds I know...). Once more and more people that aren't in these high stakes become more comfortable with the statistic, I think you will see the trend go that way. But I also think it will be 5 years at least down the line, so maybe you are just a tad early trying to get ahead.

If you really want to see what the silent majority think though, offer them in a few satellites this year and see if people back their opinion with real hard earned money. Would be a test run so to say. If they do and you start filling a lot of them, maybe you can use that as a sign to create an overall contest like that next year and have a smaller overall like the Auction Championship is, and can keep both. If you don't have any money backers this year on it or next, then you know you are either too early or there just isn't enough real money to make the change.

[ToddZ]

I'm for Batting AVG. OBP as a replacement is a Ron Shandler Ploy. He changed the Trout wars to this format. It gave his invite games a change from the Labr leagues.

To set the record straight, Tout Wars hasn't been Ron's for over 15 years. For a few years, he wasn't involved in the administration at all. Maybe ten years ago, an LLC was formed to administer the leagues, with Ron included as one of the four officers (with Peter Kreutzer, Lawr Michaels and Jeff Erickson).

All major rule changes, like when we went to OBP, are voted upon by the Tout Wars membership and aren't solely mandated by one person, let alone the LLC.

Carry on...