The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

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Greg Ambrosius
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The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:12 pm

The Fantasy Sports Trade Conference held its winter conference in Nashville last week and a lot was learned there that will affect the NFBC and NFFC. Let's kick some of these thoughts around so that our customers are on the same page as us game operators.

First of all, it's been awhile since I've been to Nashville and I forgot how there's a starving artist in every restaurant and bar you walk into. Heck, even in the airport restaurant at 8 am there was a band playing for tips. It's a very unique city with a lot of friendly folks. The food was good too and those folks know how to drink. :lol:

The conference attracted 250+ industry executives, which wasn't bad, but it was down from our peak of 450+ attendees in June of 2015 in New York City. A lot has changed since the football season of 2015 and all of it has to do with DFS and state-by-state legislation. The DFS space is changing rapidly and you are seeing massive consolidation within the space and many companies leaving the space outright. The #1 and #2 DFS companies, Fanduel and Draft Kings, are waiting for federal approval on their merger, but last week you also saw Draft Day acquire Fantasy Aces. All of these state-by-state regulations, licensing fees and taxes are making it tough for DFS companies to comply and survive.

A lot of players may not realize it but almost a dozen states are currently crafting legislation that would make licensing fees range anywhere from no cost to $2.5 million per company plus a percentage of net revenue for their state customers. Some states are asking for $10,000-$15,000 per company plus anywhere from a 6% tax to a 20% tax on state residents' net revenue. The states see this as a new revenue stream to offset budget deficits, but they don't understand our industry's revenue streams and they don't understand how their laws are shrinking the number of game operators in fantasy.

For the last decade, season-long fantasy games were legal under the federal Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement
Act (UIGEA). This law was passed in 2006 and gave guidelines on how season-long games can pay cash prizes and be legal. Everything requested in UIGEA is what we've done with our contests since 2004.

But season-long is now being included in all of these state-by-state laws and soon we'll need to pay a dozen or two additional state fees along with net revenue fees for residents in each of those states. This is all on us before we even pay prizes, and of course once you win prizes you must pay state taxes on those winnings. It's a major squeeze on a business that had very thin margins already.

Right now we do not know how many states will require us to be licensed or what those fees are ultimately going to be. We are negotiating with many of these states that are asking for a license and trying to explain our business model. Some states are open minded; some want that fee up front. It will likely take a year before we really know what this new expense will be and how we'll have to cover for it. At this point we haven't adjusted prize payouts, but a year from now who knows what that total will be. It could be enough to affect us both.

Before we can get licensed in some states we must be in compliance with some of the requests, such as GEO locators for each contest. Many of the requests make sense for DFS companies, but we are being asked to do the same things. We have a lot of work ahead of us to change the web sites to be in compliance with these states, but we're going to do it. We need to if we want to keep offering our games.

The great thing about joining SportsHub Technologies is that we have multiple fantasy games and we need just one license in each state for all of our games. This allows us to spread the expenses around and to be licensed in most of the states. Had we stayed at STATS it would have been very tough to make ends meet as a single-game operator.

What the states have done is enabled the biggest DFS companies to be alone in the states with very high registration fees. The higher the fees the fewer the companies who can afford to compete in those states. The large fees are making it nearly impossible for new companies to enter the space. Heck, even in high-stakes it will be tough for a new company to get licensed in dozens of states before unveiling a new game. These laws were intended for consumer protection, but I think season-long got dragged into these laws without any knowledge of our games. And they are going to hurt the long-term viability of our space.

Nobody is against consumer protection, but I don't think consumers who play season-long games have any more assurances today than they did before some of these bills passed. I hope I'm wrong. It's up to all of us game operators to ensure that our prizes are in safe holdings, our guarantees are fulfilled and our games are in compliance.

There are competitors in the space now that claim to pay out 90-91% on simple games, but it would be impossible to be in compliance at those rates. As consumers, please be careful when you see those type of payouts. The states are not messing around and will shut down pay-to-play games that defy their licensing policies. Those games could be shut down mid-season with no returns.

Nothing is the same as it was before, as we're learning in our own country. The fantasy games space is the same way. We will find out if it's better or worse, but be prepared for these changes in the next year. The DFS laws are here to stay and they've engulfed our games as well.
Greg Ambrosius
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KJ Duke
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by KJ Duke » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:21 pm

Thanks for the update Greg. A prototypical lesson in how government, almost without fail, kills prosperity, jobs and economic growth in the world of small business. :(

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Baseball Furies » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:25 pm

So if I'm reading between the lines correctly, everything imaginable and possible is going to be done with a full out effort to make sure that this time next year we actually still have a season long game offering through Sports Hub to turn to even if it ultimately ends up costing us, the consumer, more money. Is this correct? And Greg, like myself and others have said countless times before, you need to innovate, compensate, and invigorate when it comes to your baseball product, and then your consumer will stay and pay as long as the service and value are there. Hopefully this will also coincide with a massive marketing push once all this is worked out since there seems to be a budget for it now when there wasn't before. The attrition rate is obviously starting to catch up with the NFBC and a serious influx of new blood is desperately needed for the higher cash games particularly the Main Event.
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Cocktails and Dreams » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:16 pm

The full season companies were not near aggressive enough as I suggested many times they should be in differentiating themselves from the daily companies. The FUC$KING FSTA that Greg and other have said is so damn great the whole time ruined this. The fanduel and draft kings lobbyists basically wrote these bills in these states. The fees are okay if it means they create a monopoly.

I decided to try to fight this battle in Nebraska. Today there was a hearing about the bill. I didn't have long to testify but I was crafty in figuring out how to go last. I am trying to save the full season industry with an approach that nobody has taken thus far. The bill presented today is going to be amended. I am going to fight as hard as I can to be a part of that process. Full season games need different laws. I am proposing a fine based system for full season games, rather than upfront. I am trying to make them aware of the substantial income tax revenue losses they will endure if they force full season companies out of business. I have to get the Senators to meet with me individually and that is not easy. I will be relentless in this quest. I only had 3 minutes, which doesn't scratch the surface, but they asked me questions for another 9 minutes. I pounded home the fact that they have one of the most knowledgeable people anywhere that is willing and able to help. I have no agenda, am not a lobbyist etc etc. I did notice quite a few head nods from the panel of Senators while I was speaking so that is possibly a good sign.

The bad part is that there were so many anti gambling types there that I had to use most of my time defending the legality. And I cannot speak too negatively of Daily Games, as if they aren't separated, it could help spell the end for both types in Nebraska and eventually elsewhere.

I challenged them to use my a a resource and to take a leadership role for the remaining 40 states to look at when crafting their bills. Take pride it in and lets get the right fees in place for the right companies(daily) and the right regulations in place for everyone. Shutting companies down should not be the goal here, and that is what is going to happen. Made it clear how we get 1099's to pay our taxes on etc. and that revenue stream will go away.

Probably an uphill battle, but I did have several people get my contact information after it so I must have pounded home some impact. Omaha World Herald was one of them so hopefully I get a word in there as well. Many of you know I am a relentless competitor in our games, and this will be no different. If I fail, it will not be for lack of effort. And if I succeed, we are going to people like me in other states to take the blueprint laid out in Nebraska and make it happen in other states. Will update as time goes on.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Bjs2025 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:45 pm

Who are the dozen states?

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Money » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:46 pm

Cocktails and Dreams wrote:The full season companies were not near aggressive enough as I suggested many times they should be in differentiating themselves from the daily companies. The FUC$KING FSTA that Greg and other have said is so damn great the whole time ruined this. The fanduel and draft kings lobbyists basically wrote these bills in these states. The fees are okay if it means they create a monopoly.

I decided to try to fight this battle in Nebraska. Today there was a hearing about the bill. I didn't have long to testify but I was crafty in figuring out how to go last. I am trying to save the full season industry with an approach that nobody has taken thus far. The bill presented today is going to be amended. I am going to fight as hard as I can to be a part of that process. Full season games need different laws. I am proposing a fine based system for full season games, rather than upfront. I am trying to make them aware of the substantial income tax revenue losses they will endure if they force full season companies out of business. I have to get the Senators to meet with me individually and that is not easy. I will be relentless in this quest. I only had 3 minutes, which doesn't scratch the surface, but they asked me questions for another 9 minutes. I pounded home the fact that they have one of the most knowledgeable people anywhere that is willing and able to help. I have no agenda, am not a lobbyist etc etc. I did notice quite a few head nods from the panel of Senators while I was speaking so that is possibly a good sign.

The bad part is that there were so many anti gambling types there that I had to use most of my time defending the legality. And I cannot speak too negatively of Daily Games, as if they aren't separated, it could help spell the end for both types in Nebraska and eventually elsewhere.

I challenged them to use my a a resource and to take a leadership role for the remaining 40 states to look at when crafting their bills. Take pride it in and lets get the right fees in place for the right companies(daily) and the right regulations in place for everyone. Shutting companies down should not be the goal here, and that is what is going to happen. Made it clear how we get 1099's to pay our taxes on etc. and that revenue stream will go away.

Probably an uphill battle, but I did have several people get my contact information after it so I must have pounded home some impact. Omaha World Herald was one of them so hopefully I get a word in there as well. Many of you know I am a relentless competitor in our games, and this will be no different. If I fail, it will not be for lack of effort. And if I succeed, we are going to people like me in other states to take the blueprint laid out in Nebraska and make it happen in other states. Will update as time goes on.
I think it is pretty incredible that you took the time to go in front of legislators today to speak on behalf of the season long game and community. A lot can probably be learned from your experience and knowledge as this legislation rolls down the road. I would hope that the NFBC/NFFC takes your experience today and puts it to further use as they try to separate themselves from the daily games.

It is a long uphill battle and those out there fighting it need to unite and share knowledge pertaining to the obstacles that await. This is the most substantial thing I have read anywhere from those defending the season long game as being different than DFS.

Legislation in one state that shows the intelligent and proper way to go about addressing these games, is in the best interests of the game, not to mention the best interests of all of us that hold it so dearly.

Thanks Chad!!
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Donnie Baseball » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:56 pm

Greg...Can you get information out about which states are pursuing legislation and a few comments about the contents of each state's proposed legislation? I am sure many NFBC owners would be willing o contact state legislators and some may know some personally. But,it helps to be "armed" when making those calls. Thanks and lets do what we can to preserve this great industry.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Dat Bum » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:21 pm

Donnie Baseball wrote:Greg...Can you get information out about which states are pursuing legislation and a few comments about the contents of each state's proposed legislation? I am sure many NFBC owners would be willing o contact state legislators and some may know some personally. But,it helps to be "armed" when making those calls. Thanks and lets do what we can to preserve this great industry.
I'm with Donnie and the rest of the NFBC loyalists. Anything we can do to help, please let us know. I am in California and would be happy to write letters to those that need to hear our voice if CA is one of the states putting up speed bumps. Thank you to Greg and Tom for keeping us informed and for being completely forthright about the situation you/we are facing in the near future.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:09 am

Donnie Baseball wrote:Greg...Can you get information out about which states are pursuing legislation and a few comments about the contents of each state's proposed legislation? I am sure many NFBC owners would be willing o contact state legislators and some may know some personally. But,it helps to be "armed" when making those calls. Thanks and lets do what we can to preserve this great industry.
If you follow Legal Sports Report on Twitter you can get all of the latest legislative info. They update the state laws pretty regularly and are on top of this more than anyone else. Here's a map of every state and where they stand:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/dfs-bill-tracker/

Here's the latest state story:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/12777/ ... ign=buffer
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:22 am

Chad, thanks so much for doing that in Nebraska. It definitely helps to have a live body in these legislative sessions to inform these folks about the differences between DFS and season-long. But most states aren't differentiating the two because they feel that any pay-to-play falls under the same guidelines. And I agree with you that the lobbyists they first hear this message from doesn't help our cause at all, but they have more money to set the narrative.

In Missouri, two state fantasy companies (RT Sports and CDM) went in front of the legislators deciding their DFS law to let them know that this would be harming their companies. They explained the differences between DFS and season-long. They explained the state revenue they already get. At the end of the day, they threw season-long in with DFS and taxed companies 20.5% per net revenue per state resident in all of these games, the highest percentage in the nation. They didn't listen to state business owners at all.

We have a lot of people doing this on an individual basis and Alex and Dave have hired a lobbyist trying to be present at most of these state meetings as well. Everyone is trying to do everything they can to inform the legislators, but the precedent has been set on fees and costs to do business in New York and other states are just following suit. Nobody is taking the time to understand our industry or to realize that 1) the big money they think they are getting is gone due to the merger of Fanduel and Draft Kings, and the demise of so many small DFS companies; and 2) they are killing legitimate businesses who were running legal businesses according to UIEGA for more than a decade. It's disappointing.

But keep up the good work in Nebraska Chad and let us know how it goes. If we all do this in our states maybe we can separate season-long from these bills or at least lower the upfront fees. They are barriers to entry for any new business and a drain on current businesses.

There's plenty of blame to go around for how we got here, but there's no turning back the clock anymore. The DFS lobbyists were bigger than anyone else and needed legality to survive. They are getting it at our expense. States are budgeting for this revenue (wrongly) and saying it's all for consumer protection. Everyone looks good, but in the meantime they are really making it tough on us to run things the way we always have.

Let's all keep fighting in our states and see where it leads us. Thanks all for helping.
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Chest Rockwell » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:40 pm

Tell me the names of some state senators you want to meet with in Nebraska and I will see if I can help get you the meetings. Have a friend in the legislature there and he is a democrat so the D's might be a little easier. I believe they claim their legislature in non partisan but help me find the hidden D's.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Cocktails and Dreams » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:51 pm

Tyson Larson is the writer of the bill and who I need to meet with before amendments are made. He was sick yesterday and not able to be there, which was very unfortunate.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:57 pm

Cocktails and Dreams wrote:Tyson Larson is the writer of the bill and who I need to meet with before amendments are made. He was sick yesterday and not able to be there, which was very unfortunate.
Here is what you have going on in Nebraska:

http://www.omaha.com/news/legislature/o ... e0c5f.html

We don't have addictive season-long fantasy players like they describe here.
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Cocktails and Dreams » Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:15 pm

I spoke with David Geier this afternoon. He is the head of the Nebraska gamblers assistance program. Explained to him that full season actually prevents gambling. He, like most are concerned about the daily games the most. Yet the bills included full season equally. It is a disgrace.

As for the Omaha World Herald, I spoke with them today as well. Will have a lengthy interview with them soon, and I would suspect it will end up being a decent sized article that will be my thoughts alone. He asked me to give him first chance at an article if I didn't mind, so I told him that is fine if it happens quickly. There isn't much time to get the word out there on this issue.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by COZ » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:08 pm

Godspeed, Chad.
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:41 am

Fantasy Aces filed for bankruptcy yesterday in California with over a million dollars owed to players. This isn't going to help our cause at all. See below:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/12879/ ... ign=buffer
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Bjs2025 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:20 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:Fantasy Aces filed for bankruptcy yesterday in California with over a million dollars owed to players. This isn't going to help our cause at all. See below:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/12879/ ... ign=buffer
WHY DOES NO ONE SEE THE DIFFERENTIATION HERE??? Some garbage DFS site that in no way reflects the season long game. Roto baseball has been around for 30+ years and is vastly different. Namely this site is infinitely more professional and well run than any outfit I've seen. I personally do hate DFS although I do believe it is a game of skill as well.

I cannot stand the fact that diehard veteran season long players are lumped in with these chumps that are in these Draftkings/Fanduel commercials. It isn't even remotely the same thing. What specifically if needed can I do in Pennsylvania to help our cause? I see it looks like Pennsylvania filed for some kind of legislation last year that did not get passed thankfully. Of course the government has to try and benefit from an independent successful business that people enjoy playing that does require skill. Yet any stupid shit head could walk down to the convenient store and buy a freaking lottery ticket and they are OK with it.

Screw whoever isn't educated enough to see that DFS vs. what we have here, or any other credible season long game is vastly different.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Deadheadz » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:21 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:Fantasy Aces filed for bankruptcy yesterday in California with over a million dollars owed to players. This isn't going to help our cause at all. See below:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/12879/ ... ign=buffer
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Edwards Kings » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:34 am

Doesn't appear to be on the current docket for the Georgia legislature this session. My State House representative lives very close to me and I run into him frequently. I will be sure to get him to understand that season long needs to be categorically differentiated from DFS.

Thanks Greg, Chad, Kent and all.
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:53 am

Bjs2025 wrote:
Greg Ambrosius wrote:Fantasy Aces filed for bankruptcy yesterday in California with over a million dollars owed to players. This isn't going to help our cause at all. See below:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/12879/ ... ign=buffer
WHY DOES NO ONE SEE THE DIFFERENTIATION HERE??? Some garbage DFS site that in no way reflects the season long game. Roto baseball has been around for 30+ years and is vastly different. Namely this site is infinitely more professional and well run than any outfit I've seen. I personally do hate DFS although I do believe it is a game of skill as well.

I cannot stand the fact that diehard veteran season long players are lumped in with these chumps that are in these Draftkings/Fanduel commercials. It isn't even remotely the same thing. What specifically if needed can I do in Pennsylvania to help our cause? I see it looks like Pennsylvania filed for some kind of legislation last year that did not get passed thankfully. Of course the government has to try and benefit from an independent successful business that people enjoy playing that does require skill. Yet any stupid shit head could walk down to the convenient store and buy a freaking lottery ticket and they are OK with it.

Screw whoever isn't educated enough to see that DFS vs. what we have here, or any other credible season long game is vastly different.
Pennsylvania's current DFS is seeking a $2.5 million licensing fee from fantasy companies to get licensed in the state. If you could get that lowered a little bit that would help. :shock:
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Bjs2025 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:23 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Bjs2025 wrote:
Greg Ambrosius wrote:Fantasy Aces filed for bankruptcy yesterday in California with over a million dollars owed to players. This isn't going to help our cause at all. See below:

http://www.legalsportsreport.com/12879/ ... ign=buffer
WHY DOES NO ONE SEE THE DIFFERENTIATION HERE??? Some garbage DFS site that in no way reflects the season long game. Roto baseball has been around for 30+ years and is vastly different. Namely this site is infinitely more professional and well run than any outfit I've seen. I personally do hate DFS although I do believe it is a game of skill as well.

I cannot stand the fact that diehard veteran season long players are lumped in with these chumps that are in these Draftkings/Fanduel commercials. It isn't even remotely the same thing. What specifically if needed can I do in Pennsylvania to help our cause? I see it looks like Pennsylvania filed for some kind of legislation last year that did not get passed thankfully. Of course the government has to try and benefit from an independent successful business that people enjoy playing that does require skill. Yet any stupid shit head could walk down to the convenient store and buy a freaking lottery ticket and they are OK with it.

Screw whoever isn't educated enough to see that DFS vs. what we have here, or any other credible season long game is vastly different.
Pennsylvania's current DFS is seeking a $2.5 million licensing fee from fantasy companies to get licensed in the state. If you could get that lowered a little bit that would help. :shock:
Looks like Rep George Dunbar is who crafted the legislation in PA so I'll be contacting him shortly. What does everyone feel our main message should be? I'm going to do my best to differentiate DFS from what we do.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:45 am

We're all for consumer protection measures, but the states have to realize that season-long games don't generate the revenue that DFS does and thus can't pay all of this onerous upfront fees in every state. It will stymie growth in our industry and make it impossible for new companies to enter the space. Season-long games were already running legally under a federal law and if the states allowed us to continue running under UIEGA we'd safeguard their residents who play. Make us secure the funds in a separate account and show the states that, but right now the rules such as GEO locators and other items are geared toward DFS companies and don't fit with season-long.

We are not the same as DFS. Regulate season-long under the UIEGA guidelines and you'll continue to see growth here.
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Edwards Kings » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:22 am

In case you need it to reference or direct your representatives to, below is a link to the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (UIGEA) that Greg mentions.

https://www.fdic.gov/news/news/financia ... 10035a.pdf
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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by Cocktails and Dreams » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:18 pm

It is far too late now. The full season companies did nothing, despite many of us urging them to do something. They sat back and listened to the FSTA, while the FSTA completely screwed them behind the scenes. It is mind boggling how many of these full season companies are still members of that shitty organization, the NFBC included. Now it is way too late. I am determined to try to do something, but one man cannot win this war. I won't even be able to win this battle in Nebraska. But I damn well will get the word out here, and I damn well will hold the Senators here accountable if they don't do this correctly.

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Re: The Times Are Changing For Season Long Games

Post by fwicker » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:46 pm

Will this affect NFBC in 2017?
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