DL spots

justiceberry
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DL spots

Post by justiceberry » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:18 pm

i did less OC and main event type leagues that require management this year than past few years and am glad i didn't do more, and wish i did less because of the anger i feel having both sal perez and mike zunino as my catchers in 3 leagues apiece of my 7, including 2 (main event included) where they are my 2 catchers.

so, while i would love to be picking up speculative relievers and young breakouts, i will be trolling for 2 shit catchers or taking a zero. cuz God forbid we have DL spots, the nfbc traditionalists wouldnt have that. why make this experience (fantasy baseball) any less miserable of a game by having some flexibility and lets continue to let injuries (bad luck) decide who wins these damn leagues!

i honestly dont buy any explanation why leagues this deep, with this much money on the line, do not attempt to make the DL minefield that is fantasy baseball should not have at LEAST 2 DL spots. but ive requested this in the past, and told "it is part of the challenge that makes this contest unique"

well, i have played enough to know when i am having horeshit luck, and it is usually when DL spots abound and when it is a position like catcher, you are particularly hamstrung. here i am it isnt april and my 2 stud C mike zunino and sal perez havent taken a single AB and now are going to clog my bench in my fucking main event for god knows how long

Philippe27
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Re: DL spots

Post by Philippe27 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:34 pm

I'm 100% against DL spots. The Free Agents are already somewhat limited in a 15-team league, if you remove the top 30 players from the free agent pool, the options would be even more limited.

Philippe27
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Re: DL spots

Post by Philippe27 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:41 pm

Flowers, Zunino, Realmuto and Perez are all hurt. Take away the 4 best catchers from the free agent pool and the next guy who loses a catcher would get stuck with the 5th best. No DL forces you to make a decision.

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Wolfpac
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Re: DL spots

Post by Wolfpac » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:20 pm

I got to say it is part of the contest that does make it unique. Its a giant chess game on how you decide to use those 7 precious bench spots.
Last edited by Wolfpac on Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gb2715
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Re: DL spots

Post by Gb2715 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:51 am

No DL spots please. So every team would be able to have 2 more roster spots and the FA pool would be even more of a crap shoot than it already is. These are the decisions we have to make in fantasy baseball. It's what separates the best of the best. I can go play a 10 team 18 man roster with 7 DL spots on yahoo if I need to.

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Deadheadz
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Re: DL spots

Post by Deadheadz » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:09 am

FWIW

The guys on the ESPN podcast “Fantasy Focus” discussed DL slots this past Thursday and basically came to the conclusion it’s smarter to have no DL and instead have an extra bench spot. Too much hassle and grief especially since you can’t put a player into the DL slot until they’re officially on the MLB disabled list, which sometimes doesn’t happen fast enough for fantasy players.

NFBC already gave us extra bench slots in lieu of DL slots. They’re ahead of their time.

High stakes fantasy is extremely hard. It includes hard decisions and a lot of planning.
DL slots are a crutch.

Man up.
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JohnP
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Re: DL spots

Post by JohnP » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:25 am

DL discussion happens every year. Pros and cons as pointed out.

Deadheadz telling someone / anything to "man up" - that's a new one.

CC's Desperados
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Re: DL spots

Post by CC's Desperados » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:38 am

The first poster is 100 percent correct. Any team that suffers an injury is punished in two ways. He loses a starting player plus his bench is compromised. With multiple injuries, a Fantasy owner is forced to make tough decisions to keep a competitive lineup each week. With each week that passes for a team with multiple injuries, an owner will fall further behind in each category affected by the injuries.

On the flip side, an owner with a healthy team gains a big edge. He can mine the free agent pool plus hold a full roster of player to help him compete.

I know injuries are part of the game and the best owners will find a way to overcome these situations if possible. Finding a balance to keep the injured team more competitive would be an improvement in the game.

The downside with two DL spots is that Fantasy owners would then just pick up injured to place on the DL, which would be a huge negative to the game.

Maybe a solution outside the box is that each Fantasy owner has on DL area of his teams, which has a value of 26 weeks. In essence, each team would gain one extra bench slot over the course of the season. By doing this way, a Fantasy owner could use up his injured area of his team when needed. If he had four players hurt in April for a month, all injured players could be placed on the DL. These players would then take away 16 weeks of his injured quota.

In this case, the injured team doesn't gain an edge on a healthy team as the team with no injuries will have the same opportunity throughout the year.

The downside of this idea is a team that places a few players in their DL bank, but they don't manage their team once it falls out of contention. it would then force the game operator to make drops for that owner when the DL bank is used up or the injured players come off the DL.

Maybe a full 26 weeks of injured slots is too much. The last month of the season Major league baseball teams don't place many players on the DL due to roster expansion.

Just thinking of a way to improve the injury situation, as it would make the overall game better for all teams. There is nothing worse than getting beat up in April and May with injuries after investing huge dollars into Fantasy teams.

The Union jacks
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Re: DL spots

Post by The Union jacks » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:48 am

Add a DL slot but make it so it can only be used if the player went on the DL while he was on your roster.

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Wolfpac
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Re: DL spots

Post by Wolfpac » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:01 am

7 bench spots allows the owners to carry injured players. Its all about weighing cost and benefit in doing so. Injuries suck, its part of the game.

DOUGHBOYS
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Re: DL spots

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:09 am

I believe the original poster makes a good point as well. We all know that injuries can cripple a team. Especially in his case when we have injuries to two catchers, catchers already being the shortest position in which to draw from in FAAB.
We want the season-long game to be sweet misery, not plain misery.
Our NFBC game is only 15 years old, but already, its members rely on 'tradition' and its 'uniqueness' in immediately dismissing rule changes. Change is not a bad thing in some cases.

I believe that our game is made up of 30% drafting skills, 30% in-season management skills, and 40% luck.
We can take some luck of injury out of the equation and place it in in-season management skills by adding a dl spot.
Shawn is headed in the right direction in making this a 'banked situation'.
If starting a dl program, I believe that it should be a slowly evolving process however.
The first year, limiting dl'ed players to only one spot per team, using that spot for 13 weeks.
No dl spots can be used in September.
If injuries get even greater, the dl rule can be expanded as needed.
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Wolfpac
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Re: DL spots

Post by Wolfpac » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:14 am

Dan you just mentioned that catchers is the thinnest position in FAAB, but now DL spots would make it even thinner. There is only a finite amount of free agent talent out there, now it would be further diluted. Also as mentioned there is ways to game the DL spot system, unless you do make it like a few posters suggested, but then it becomes a convoluted DL system that would be not easily explained and or interpreted. That does not bode well for expansion of our product when DL rules become more than a sentence to explain to a possible newcomer.

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Re: DL spots

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:23 am

Wolfpac wrote:Dan you just mentioned that catchers is the thinnest position in FAAB, but now DL spots would make it even thinner. There is only a finite amount of free agent talent out there, now it would be further diluted. Also as mentioned there is ways to game the DL spot system, unless you do make it like a few posters suggested, but then it becomes a convoluted DL system that would be not easily explained and or interpreted. That does not bode well for expansion of our product when DL rules become more than a sentence to explain to a possible newcomer.
Don't get me started on Catchers, Dan :D
I still think that the two-catcher system is only embraced because it is tradition.
In reality, it is kinda dumb for all of us to carry two Catchers (sorry traditionalists)
Can you imagine starting out with a one catcher system and then suggesting we go to two catchers?
That suggestion would be scoffed at.
With the many injuries to Catchers, I really do wish that we had started with one Catcher.

I don't think the dl would make it convoluted.
One dl spot, 13 weeks is not complicated.
I do believe there has to be some sort of relief for injury riddled teams.
Otherwise, a new player with lots of injuries may simply give up our game, rather than enjoy it.
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Wolfpac
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Re: DL spots

Post by Wolfpac » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:27 am

The catcher point is totally fair, I agree wholeheartedly that if we had only one catcher, we would no go to 2, just like now if someone brought up the idea of eliminating middle and corner infield and replacing it with the strict requirement that we carry exactly two of each infield position.

Oh and I am not sure whats worse having two hurt catchers or my two catchers that i have in our auction. (Castro can't you just get hurt for me please)

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Ando
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Re: DL spots

Post by Ando » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:21 am

I would suggest to the original poster that he develops a game strategy of roster construction that does not involve taking a C in the first 15 rounds. It puts the responsibility on the owner and makes those 2 positions of C less damaging if and when one or both get hurt.

My opinion (not statistically backed) is that position carries the highest risk of injury. I also feel that the best of that position plays 130-140 games tops. I do not feel 2 top 12 round picks is a wise decision based on those last two statements. Now, losing Z and Sal before April is a hilariously bad string of luck.

I have 2 ME teams. Both my C's are Lucroy and Swihart. Yes, my C2 is not even really a C anymore and if he gets 10 AB a week I'll be pleased. But he cost a 25th & 27th round pick. If he gets some half-ass quality of the 10 AB's a week, he'll stick around for me. If not, he'll be shit canned. .....well, maybe not....because owners like you need to swim in the C pool this weekend to replace Z, Sal, Suzuki, Flowers, etc. :lol:

Injuries are part of the game. They suck. And we aren't even talking about Pitchers here or teams manipulating the 10 day DL rule. But losing two catchers to the DL who are top 8-12 round picks is a problem I will never experience based on how I choose to play this game.
"Luck is the residue of design."

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justiceberry
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Re: DL spots

Post by justiceberry » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:32 am

i just hate that it is march 31st and i am ready so pissed off i dont even want to look at my teams. i have mad bum (dropped souza) in 1 league where i also have zunino and sal..........the fact i dont have DL spots makes me care less about that team already. if i had 2 dl spots to put the guys i drafted who haven't even played yet there, i could go grab drew butera and mike marjama and still be hurting but at least id have the flexibility to start a full healthy lineup. as is i will have to drop a couple good players because i have 2 stud catchers both out 4-6 weeks who haven't played a game yet.

i agree with dougboys as well as the guy who said they need to be used for players we already owned.

this is my 4th year playing nfbc, 15th year overall playing competitively fantasy baseball and 2 of my 3 nfbc years were easily the worst years i have ever had with bad luck and injuries (you know these things when you play) and 7 bench spots is not a deep bench at all when there are 23 starters. i have honestly had 7 guys on the DL at once or more. i would be interested in studying the overall champions and the amount of injuries they had.

whats frustrating is how this is such a minority stance, i wish many DL trips of your studs at shallow positions to all those opposed.

justiceberry
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Re: DL spots

Post by justiceberry » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:35 am

ps thanks for the advice Ando, i was hoping somebody would advise me on how to play fantasy baseball good

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Wolfpac
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Re: DL spots

Post by Wolfpac » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:38 am

justiceberry wrote:i just hate that it is march 31st and i am ready so pissed off i dont even want to look at my teams. i have mad bum (dropped souza) in 1 league where i also have zunino and sal..........the fact i dont have DL spots makes me care less about that team already. if i had 2 dl spots to put the guys i drafted who haven't even played yet there, i could go grab drew butera and mike marjama and still be hurting but at least id have the flexibility to start a full healthy lineup. as is i will have to drop a couple good players because i have 2 stud catchers both out 4-6 weeks who haven't played a game yet.

i agree with dougboys as well as the guy who said they need to be used for players we already owned.

this is my 4th year playing nfbc, 15th year overall playing competitively fantasy baseball and 2 of my 3 nfbc years were easily the worst years i have ever had with bad luck and injuries (you know these things when you play) and 7 bench spots is not a deep bench at all when there are 23 starters. i have honestly had 7 guys on the DL at once or more. i would be interested in studying the overall champions and the amount of injuries they had.

whats frustrating is how this is such a minority stance, i wish many DL trips of your studs at shallow positions to all those opposed.
Let me understand, you wish negativity and misfortune for those who oppose your views? Maybe this mindset and not bad luck is why you're not winning.

If people want to make a sound logical argument then this is the place to do it, but comments like these do not solve anything.

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Ando
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Re: DL spots

Post by Ando » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:39 am

No problem, Justice. I'll make sure Greg and Tom get your ribbon in the mail early this year for playing. We'll try to make it blue this year - a color the Royals & Mariners share. :D
"Luck is the residue of design."

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Gb2715
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Re: DL spots

Post by Gb2715 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:27 am

justiceberry wrote:ps thanks for the advice Ando, i was hoping somebody would advise me on how to play fantasy baseball good

Really? He has a point. Injury prone players get a knock on their draft positions along with injury prone positions. If you want two stud catchers? Instead of say a 3b or an OF that is your choice but you put all your eggs in one basket with these two. I own Z in 1 league and Perez in none. The league with Z is an Al only auction. Yay. But I'll deal with it. If you DL these guys then someone else getting hurt next week for another team will put them in the same bad spot but their won't be those two replacements to bid on. So how is that fair?

Also should Trea Turner owners get a redo because he is batting 6th? I'm only half kidding here! Thank god I had Arenado ranked higher and got him everywhere I could.

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Yah Mule
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Re: DL spots

Post by Yah Mule » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:39 am

Gb2715 wrote:
justiceberry wrote:ps thanks for the advice Ando, i was hoping somebody would advise me on how to play fantasy baseball good

Really? He has a point. Injury prone players get a knock on their draft positions along with injury prone positions. If you want two stud catchers? Instead of say a 3b or an OF that is your choice but you put all your eggs in one basket with these two. I own Z in 1 league and Perez in none. The league with Z is an Al only auction. Yay. But I'll deal with it. If you DL these guys then someone else getting hurt next week for another team will put them in the same bad spot but their won't be those two replacements to bid on. So how is that fair?

Also should Trea Turner owners get a redo because he is batting 6th? I'm only half kidding here! Thank god I had Arenado ranked higher and got him everywhere I could.
This is pretty much my opinion. Players who are injury prone have that already baked into their price. Risk aversion is part of the game. An owner who drafts risky players or doubles up on the tools of ignorance is exposing himself to additional risk. Why should he be allowed an extra resource to pursue this high variance strategy?

Like everyone here who has played a large number of leagues, I've looked at my roster and seen seven red crosses on my bench. It sucks, but this is the business we have chosen.

Right now, a couple early injuries and my own fetish for rookies is going to compromise my movements in free agency this Sunday on a couple teams. I drafted Ronald Acuña and Willie Calhoun with my eyes wide open about service time rules. I knew I was going to be without those guys for two weeks and a month, respectively, in a best case scenario. I also knew that an early OF injury would be problematic. So, when I had the hubris to draft Aaron Hicks as well and he got injured like he does every year, do I deserve a DL spot to cover for my high risk behavior? How about a guy who has a pitching staff with Paxton, Hill, Salazar, Wacha and Garrett Richards? Why don't we fit that owner with a set of training wheels, too?

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Deadheadz
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Re: DL spots

Post by Deadheadz » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:48 am

Wolfpac wrote:7 bench spots allows the owners to carry injured players. Its all about weighing cost and benefit in doing so. Injuries suck, its part of the game.
Exactly.
Good fantasy players don’t overload on prospects and players who are injured or have shown a history of getting hurt. The podcast pundits (these guys who play in LABR & Tout) keep telling us it’s okay to take one or two of these high-risk players depending on the size of the league and your bench.

If you plan properly you can deal with a few injuries. If you get more than a few injuries by players who aren’t considered high-risk, it’s bad luck.

There’s no reason to change the rules just to balance out bad luck.
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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: DL spots

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:38 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wolfpac wrote:Dan you just mentioned that catchers is the thinnest position in FAAB, but now DL spots would make it even thinner. There is only a finite amount of free agent talent out there, now it would be further diluted. Also as mentioned there is ways to game the DL spot system, unless you do make it like a few posters suggested, but then it becomes a convoluted DL system that would be not easily explained and or interpreted. That does not bode well for expansion of our product when DL rules become more than a sentence to explain to a possible newcomer.
Don't get me started on Catchers, Dan :D
I still think that the two-catcher system is only embraced because it is tradition.
In reality, it is kinda dumb for all of us to carry two Catchers (sorry traditionalists)
Can you imagine starting out with a one catcher system and then suggesting we go to two catchers?
That suggestion would be scoffed at.
With the many injuries to Catchers, I really do wish that we had started with one Catcher.
I know I've responded to the 2-Catcher post before and gotten scoffed at, but I'll try it again.

The Founding Fathers of Rotisserie Baseball wrote the rules to coincide with real Major League Baseball. They wanted us to act as real General Managers and to compile an MLB roster like regular MLB teams did. Thus the 23-man roster of 1979 (rather than a 25-man roster of today) and two Catchers. MLB rosters were filled with stars and scrubs, and of course, at least two catchers. In Rotisserie Baseball, we are doing the same thing, but now with deeper player pools because we are playing in Mixed Leagues rather than AL-only or NL-only leagues.

The rules were written to make the game hard. We took it a step further in the NFBC by making it even harder with limited reserve spots and no DL list. We're already 450 players deep, so adding an additional 15 or 30 players from the free agent pool to DL spots has never been embraced by yours truly. Heck, during the first NFBC season, we had only 6 Reserve Spots. People convinced me that I was overly crazy with that limitation and we expanded to 7 Reserve spots in 2005.

As many people have noted here already, that second Catcher spot is part of the strategy of this crazy game. Do you nab two good ones early, knowing that this is an injury-prone spot? Or do you get one sure catcher and one late-round fill-in? Or do you just nab two $1 catchers and punt both spots in favor of stronger offense or pitching earlier in the draft? There are so many ways to attack the position and no one way is the only way. Injuries and struggles define which strategy worked from year to year.

As for DL spots, it's a simple give and take on the rules either way. If you add DL spots, you limit the free agent pool. Even reducing the pool by 15 players is a big concession. 30 players and you better hope you never need replacements during the year. Adding DL spots is not something that will improve the game and we've said that for years. Injuries and how you deal with them -- or how you dealt with their potential on Draft Day -- are a tough, tough part of this game. You have to weather the storm and make your other 22 or 21 spots as good as possible until they return. And sometimes that means drafting a third catcher or making sure your first FAAB pickup is a catcher that fills in. In one 15-team league that I'm in, I drafted Francisco Cervelli as a third catcher and he was inserted into my starting lineup when Salvador Perez went down. He had a good first game, so I was a bit lucky, but also a bit smart on Draft Day.

Dealing with injuries isn't easy, we realize that. But it's a major part of this game. As is the 2-Catcher lineup.
Greg Ambrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
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Re: DL spots

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:58 pm

I get the traditionalism.
I get that a shorter bench and two catchers makes our game a little more difficult.
Really, I get that.
However, it doesn't make the game better or worse.
There would be similar type strategies if we have the flip side of having one catcher.
How much emphasis would would we put in drafting a singular catcher?
What thoughts would we have later when not being tied down to drafting that second catcher?
Would we draft a backup catcher?
For those wanting more spots in FAAB, it would provide 15 extra spots.

Two catchers and one catcher systems are just different.
One or the other, is no more harder, strategically, than the other.
Both just offer different options, leading to different thoughts. That's all.
I already know better than to advocate for a one-catcher rule change.
There are far too many traditionalists and those who are used to the two-catcher system to sway minds.
We are getting to the point, really, in which it would be hard to implement any rule change.
We've had many to get to this point.
It seems most are comfortable with what is on our table now.
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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: DL spots

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:12 pm

Totally agree Dan.

The funny thing about the NFBC is that so many people when given the choice choose the 15-team format over the 12-team format. Heck, our 12-team Primetime lived a short life, only to see the 15-team Main Event grow and grow. If people wanted easier options, the 12-team format would be the choice of many. Even with 2 catchers per team, there are still plenty of available options in the 12-team format. Not so much in the 15-teamer.

Again, traditionalists are probably old-school Rotisserie players. It's 2 catchers, 23-starters and short reserve rosters. Call me a traditionalist...and many others here. If we want a game of 1 Catcher, 19 starters, 3 DL spots, any of that can be devised into another game. Nobody has really done it yet and we won't be the first. But I totally understand if folks want that in a 10 or 12 team format. You can plan around injuries.

But this beast of a 15-team format? It goes by traditional rules!! ;)

Thanks for all the great responses here and good luck trying to keep your rosters healthy and productive.
Greg Ambrosius
Founder, National Fantasy Baseball Championship
General Manager, Consumer Fantasy Games at SportsHub Technologies
Twitter - @GregAmbrosius

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