Dirty Dozens Is Officially CANCELLED For 2019

[Greg Ambrosius]

The old saying is that "if you build it, they will come."

Well, not always. And that's okay sometimes.

In the case of the unique NFBC Dirty Dozens, we built it but it wasn't an overwhelming hit. And therefore today we are officially cancelling the Dirty Dozens for 2019 and likely going forward. Our 12-team national contest idea has been tried in various forms and so far only the Online Championship has been widely accepted. We tried, we learned and now we move on.

I will personally be emailing the 30 or so owners who have one or two teams in this contest now and giving them other options. We apologize to those who supported this concept that it didn't fill and we hope that we can find other contests to their liking. For those signed up for a live Dirty Dozens in Las Vegas, we'll do all we can to find a landing spot for you. We do have some $750 Rotowire Online Championship Plus contests that are live in Las Vegas, so let' discuss. Look for that email today.

The one good thing about the Dirty Dozens is that we attempted the concept of a single entry national contest here and settled on a limit of two entries. We then took that idea to the next level in football and created the single-entry NFFC Silver Bullets for 2019 and that concept has been a huge hit over there. We expect that contest to sell out with 180 teams, 15 leagues, and expand in future years. A single-entry national contest in football is greatly needed and we're happy to be the first one to offer that.

My thought today is that the same concept is needed for baseball too. Maybe we missed with the unique ideas we had for the Dirty Dozens and maybe we were wrong that it should have been done in the 12-team format in a shortened season. Maybe, just maybe, a similar 15-team contest like the Main Event at a lower price point and at just one-entry-per-owner is needed. We certainly don't want to compete against our own Main Event, but maybe the market is telling us that this is a good format for our current owners and possibly a stepping stone to the Main Event for newbies. Maybe that's the way we go in the future for the NFBC. And maybe adding a $75,000 cash bonus for winning both of those 15-team national contests will actually enhance the Main Event. We'll see.

I don't know, lots to think about, but the single-entry national contest WILL BE OFFERED in 2020 one way or another. It's needed in the season-long space. Now we just have to iron out those details. But our first duty is to place those owners who have already committed money to the NFBC in the Dirty Dozens into another contest. We'll do that today and take care of these owners. Again, apologies for not filling this contest, but let's move on together.

Thanks all for the thoughts on this contest and good luck in all your leagues this year.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I wanted to make sure the old Dirty Dozens thread got the post that this contest was cancelled, but if you have thoughts on the single-entry format going forward please post them in this thread. Let's use this thread to talk about what would be needed in 2020 to have a single-entry national contest.

Do you want:

12 Teams or 15 Teams?
Full Season or shortened season?
Same format as one of our other contests or a unique one?

The single-entry idea is really what I'm shooting for in 2020. It's needed in the NFBC. It's needed in season-long. So let's create one together that we'll all like and support, while still providing nice league prizes and national prizes at a different price point than we currently have. $1,000 seems like the right price point for this in 2020.

Thanks for any feedback and we look forward to your ideas.

[Doctor Who]

These are just my thoughts on why this didn't get off the ground this year.

I think the 750-1500 OC's pull away from this market so if did this in the 12-team, I think you would have to pull those and make the OC only 350$ contests.

I also think you will need to do full season instead of the shortened season.

I also think the prize structure needs to be more balanced. I like the idea of rewarding the top 10 more in this contest. So a flatter pay-scale might give you more differences than your other contests you have. Reward the top 10 overall and take it from the leagues if need be. I think $1000 a team is the right price point to middle from the entry $350 vs the main at $1700.

With that said, you have pushed 15's so hard at the NFBC, that I think people are more comfortable at this level at the 15's. Like a said above, you could easily get new players that won last year in an OC or new players not willing to pony up $1700 into this contest. Limiting the entries also helps the first time player as well. By making it a $1000, it could be the stepping stone needed to go to the Main Event if one feels like they are ready by winning or trying it out. By making the top overall 10 a flatter pay-scale, you might not have the big $ first place, but it will reward the league winners and provide some much needed competition at the end of the year when each spot matters in the top 10.

Not to mention, as I've stated in a previous message board, have some satellites like you do now for main and OC, as well in your fanball DFS this year to help fill it. Using fanball to help support your season long contests is something that you need to market and once again will get new players to the site.

[Bronx Yankees]

I wanted to make sure the old Dirty Dozens thread got the post that this contest was cancelled, but if you have thoughts on the single-entry format going forward please post them in this thread. Let's use this thread to talk about what would be needed in 2020 to have a single-entry national contest.

Do you want:

12 Teams or 15 Teams?
Full Season or shortened season?
Same format as one of our other contests or a unique one?

The single-entry idea is really what I'm shooting for in 2020. It's needed in the NFBC. It's needed in season-long. So let's create one together that we'll all like and support, while still providing nice league prizes and national prizes at a different price point than we currently have. $1,000 seems like the right price point for this in 2020.

Thanks for any feedback and we look forward to your ideas.

Greg - Here's some quick feedback.

First, if you roll-out a new contest in 2020, I recommend announcing it much sooner in the drafting season (e.g., October or November 2019). This new contest was not announced until early-January, after many owners had signed up for many 2019 leagues. Better to have it introduced when registration goes live so that owners can consider it from the start when they are trying to figure out what leagues are going to be on their dance cards.

Second, the shortened season was a definite twist, and probably cost you some sign-ups. Who knows? Maybe it also added some. Importantly, I think it would be better to solicit and get feedback on these Message Boards before finalizing the rules - like you are doing now. Much better to get that feedback before the rules are finalized and the contest is announced than afterwards.

Third, I think the concept of a single entry contest has appeal. Maybe if you can figure out the rules during the 2019 season, you can take a poll and gauge interest for the new contest. If interest is adequate, a single entry may be more appealing than a two-entry limit.

Fourth, for me, the shortened season was a big turn-off. Maybe it's just the way the NFBC has conditioned us, but I'm programmed to play to the end of the season. Without question the MLB rules for expanded rosters in September make things challenging, but they are equally challenging for all competitors.

Fifth, again solely for me, I have a preference for 15-team leagues, but I'd do one season-long 12-team league if the contest is attractive enough.

Sixth, the $1,000 price point probably is the maximum cost. Any higher, and I'd prefer to just do another Main Event or Auction Championship team. If you opt for the 12-team format, maybe price the new contest at $750 and offer it as an alternative to the $750 Online Championship leagues. Not sure how many of those you sell-out, but the lower price point may make it easier for newbies to join it. After the contest is established, then maybe transition to $1,000.

Seventh, I personally prefer stronger league prizes as opposed to maximizing the top overall prize. I understand the need for the big carrot, but maybe there's some middle ground. The initial league prices when the contest was first rolled-out were inadequate to attract interest. The $75,000 bonus for winning the new contest and the Main Event is a very nice touch and should be retained.

Thanks, and good luck with the new contest next year. See you soon in NYC!

Mike

[DOUGHBOYS]

Agreed with most of this feedback.
I can speak for a lot of NFBC players in that the September 1 ending to the Dirty Dozens was a deterrent in the rules for a lot of folks signing up.
It pleased the folks who don't like September baseball and the football playing bunch, but most of us are, truly, season-long players.
(Note- a 28 man limit on September rosters is on the table for the next bargaining session between owners and players)
I also agree that it should be a 15-teamer. It seems most new contests are now bent on getting the lesser-teams leagues into the NFBC for newer players.
Let them cut their teeth on a one entrant 15-team event at a cheaper cost.
I believe you're on the right track in making it a stepping stone for the Main Event.
Good luck in bringing this back next year in a different form.

[NorCalAtlFan]

agree with Mike. didn't like the shortened season at all.
also felt you were robbing peter to pay paul in a sense. they are different contests, but having $750 and $1500 OC contests and another 12 teamer at $1000 didn't seem to jibe well.

[Philippe27]

I'd be in favour of a 12-team single entry, $1,000 entry with more league prizes and a smaller overall prize.

I think the $350 OC allows players to make a smaller investment, have a chance at a big price and is already a huge success. I think the goal of this new contest would be to move the $750 and $1,500 OC to this new contest and also by having the prize to win both this new contest and the OC would ensure every owner in the Main Event also has one team in this contest.

I think it needs to be a 12 team though or have another significant difference to the Main Event otherwise it'll be the same contest but a single entry which I don't think is appealing enough. If it's a 15 then it has to have another twist whether it's different categories like OBP and Saves + Holds or something else major to make it different.

[Brock]

The main event is an overwhelming success and I wouldn't recommend it at a lower price point. I thought that's what the satellite leagues are for and I understand they don't have an overall prize fund. Kudos for innovating and offering more formats but be careful of over saturation. Best of luck to everyone and PLAY BALL.

[KJ Duke]

I threw this idea out to Darik after it was too late for 2019, but I like it for 2020 so I'll post here to see what the feedback is ...

Rather than create something that could detract from the Main Event, take the single entry idea and make it part of the Main Event as a bonus prize option.

How could that work?

• Each owner can designate one Main Event team only as an entrant into the Best Shot Championship (BSC) contest.
• Any main event owner can enter the BSC by paying an additional $500 entry fee and assigning one Main Event team of their choosing, prior to the start of the season, to be their one and only participating team.

The BSC would have its own prize pool but use the same scoring for standings and pay the top 10 Main Event teams that participated. It could have a higher payout structure, ideally 90% or better, since there's no extra cost of running additional leagues (only cc fees and a few upfront programming hours).

This structure would actually make the ME a more attractive contest - rather than competing against it - because the blended overall pay pct would be higher and you'd only have to compete against one team from each participating owner to win this part of the prize pool. Another benefit, with the secondary prize pool this could substantially raise the overall potential prize for the ME winner to well beyond the current $150K, especially since none of the entry fees would be funding individual league prizes. So maybe next year's MainEvent/BCS winner could offer a $200-250k prize to the champ, and if successful keep pushing higher in future years at a faster rate than we've seen in the past.

[Philippe27]

I do like KJ's idea but another random thought I just had, why not have a maximum number of FAAB moves in this single entry contest?

If the goal is to get as many people to sign up for this league on top of their other leagues, a league with a maximum of 10 moves or something like that with a slightly deeper bench could make this tough. Say 12 teams, 36 rounds, 10 FAAB moves during the year.

A lot of people don't like the 12 team because it's too easy and there's always someone on FAAB to pick up. This would make it much tougher, would put more emphasis on the draft and make it much less time consuming during the year. It would interest a lot of people who already manage 5+ teams to add another and also attract those who don't have time to manage a Main Event team and spend time on FAAB every week.

[Red Sox Nation-]

Hi Greg,

My opinion is there are too many FAAB games and players only have a finite amount of time. I can't speak for everyone but i sign up for leagues based on how much i can handle on Sunday's. I think some of the smaller entry leagues with FAAB will deter people from adding more teams. I know you're trying to grow the business but FAAB burns some owners out and it's the reason some folks have caps on how many leagues they join. I think you have the right games currently. If i were building new games (i think you have enough today) I'd focus on easier to manage systems like you did with DC and cutlines.

I'd only entertain 15 team leagues and the shortened season would be a deal breaker since i'm already going to have other leagues that go until the season ends. To me the "Dirty Dozen" may have worked if those owners only grabbed teams in that event. I can't imagine someone wants ME's going to season's end and this league ending early.

Jason

[DOUGHBOYS]

Watching a steady parade of relievers in real baseball is already hard to bear.
Enhancing their worth in fantasy leagues would probably be as hard for most to stomach.
Changing relievers, catchers, or statistics is probably not the right path.
I wouldn't mind a 'Main Event Classic' type for the 'Silver Bullet'.
Lower price, Overall prize, league prizes, one entry.
It'd be a great introduction to the Main Event for a lot of new NFBC players.
No gimmicks of changing stats or a September 1 finish date.

Why can't we have both the 'New Coke' and 'Coca Cola Classic'.

[Philippe27]

Watching a steady parade of relievers in real baseball is already hard to bear.
Enhancing their worth in fantasy leagues would probably be as hard for most to stomach.
Changing relievers, catchers, or statistics is probably not the right path.
I wouldn't mind a 'Main Event Classic' type for the 'Silver Bullet'.
Lower price, Overall prize, league prizes, one entry.
It'd be a great introduction to the Main Event for a lot of new NFBC players.
No gimmicks of changing stats or a September 1 finish date.

Why can't we have both the 'New Coke' and 'Coca Cola Classic'.

I think if you want people to sign up to this one in addition to the leagues they already have, it needs to have something different, ideally something that makes it a little less time consuming and enhances different skills.

If someone has 2 main event teams, I think you want them to keep their 2 main event teams and make this their 3rd league as opposed to doing 1 of each.

I think a 12 team league with limited FAAB moves during the year would achieve that goal whether it's a total number of moves or doing FAAB once a month instead of every week or something along those lines. We'd of course need more than 7 bench spots but I think this would be less time consuming without making it gimmicky.

[DOUGHBOYS]

One entrant in the Silver Bullet IS what would set it apart from other leagues.
Messing with Sept 1, positions, FAAB, or other items are just gimmicks that appeal to few.
The new contest could be a stepping stone for the Main Event. Attractive to new and old NFBC participants.
The Silver Bullet with the correct price point, prizes, league prizes, and one entrant per drafter can stand on its own.

[Philippe27]

One entrant in the Silver Bullet IS what would set it apart from other leagues.
Messing with Sept 1, positions, FAAB, or other items are just gimmicks that appeal to few.
The new contest could be a stepping stone for the Main Event. Attractive to new and old NFBC participants.
The Silver Bullet with the correct price point, prizes, league prizes, and one entrant per drafter can stand on its own.

I guarantee you that the number 1 reason that people don't sign up for more leagues is time. Find a way to improve on that while keeping the contest interesting and it'll fill up.

If the Silver Bullet is the same as the Main Event but at a lower price point, you'll move entries around but won't get any additional sign ups.

[DOUGHBOYS]

One entrant in the Silver Bullet IS what would set it apart from other leagues.
Messing with Sept 1, positions, FAAB, or other items are just gimmicks that appeal to few.
The new contest could be a stepping stone for the Main Event. Attractive to new and old NFBC participants.
The Silver Bullet with the correct price point, prizes, league prizes, and one entrant per drafter can stand on its own.

I guarantee you that the number 1 reason that people don't sign up for more leagues is time. Find a way to improve on that while keeping the contest interesting and it'll fill up.

If the Silver Bullet is the same as the Main Event but at a lower price point, you'll move entries around but won't get any additional sign ups.

Have it your way.

[Hollenole]

I agree that time is the biggest issue. I play DC's because my schedule in July,August doesn't allow for me to have the time to properly pay attention to FAAB in the bigger contests and I enjoy drafting more than the grind of the waiver wire, honestly. I would play OC's maybe the Cutline(although I hate the idea of the split season) and still plan to play in the Main when I can give it the time needed to do it correctly. A single entry contest has tons of appeal to me. I personally would love to see it be something like a DC version of the Main. $1000 single entry, 50 man draft and hold. You could even use the points system from the Cutline and make it a best ball if you want(although I think that would work better in a multiple entry contest). I would personally love an Auction DC Championship of some sort.
The way I see it you have a high end contest for the 12 team/FAAB guys in the OC. You have the entry level DC's. You have the Main which is the BIG ONE. To me the best way to sell a single entry contest is to get the guys in the entry level leagues like myself to step up to a higher end contest. The only reason I haven't played in the Main is time. A league with a FAAB is really 2 seperate games. You can draft the best team and not manage it properly and never sniff the $$. In the DC you only need to make sure you set your lineups.
I think this would also be the best way to avoid, what was brought up before in guys just shifting leagues(instead of 2 mains they play one and the new contest etc...) If you include the bonus with the Main team you will get the guys in the Main and you will also get a lot of the entry level DC drafters to jump at this being their MAIN league and all those other DC's they draft will be building to the same type of "BIG" DC type draft. Anyways that's my $.02

[Money]

I am obviously in a 100% minority, but I loved the game / concept exactly as it was designed.

[Packman]

I am obviously in a 100% minority, but I loved the game / concept exactly as it was designed.

Joe, I am right there in the minority with you. I loved the idea of a 12-team main event, and really liked the Dirty Dozen as it was set up. I liked the idea of ending it Sept 1, though that wasn't the draw. I'd rather have had the contest run, and would have given up that feature no problem. I really cannot believe that even with the $75,000 bonus tied to the contest that people would not sign up for it.

Some guys mentioned it already, but I think maybe having the $750 and $1500 OCs may have pulled some signups from the Dirty Dozens, as well. There definitely seemed to be more signed up for those high priced OCs than there were in the Dirty Dozens. So, if whatever you go ahead with next year is a 12-team event, I would strongly consider not offering the $750 and $1500 OCs. If you go with a 15-team event, then definitely keep them, though.

I also agree with the suggestions about saving time. Especially FAAB time. I like both suggestions about limiting the number of FAAB moves (though I highly doubt the majority would like that idea), as well as the suggestion to maybe do FAAB just once a month. Combining their posts, 36 rounds with once a month FAAB sounds like an idea.

If you do make this a 15-team event next year, I will not be taking an entry. I understand the NFBC 15-team purists that like the idea of using this single-entry event as a feeder into the Main Event. But, to me, that is what all the DCs and satellite leagues are for. But, if you offer it as a 12-team event, no matter what other features you offer it with, I will be taking a team. There needs to be a 12-team main event, in my opinion. The $350 entry OC is not a "main event". Football has the Classic and the Primetime in addition to the OC. I just cannot understand why a 12-team main event cannot gain traction with NFBC folks. But I know I am in the minority here, right next to Joe.

[Philippe27]

I am obviously in a 100% minority, but I loved the game / concept exactly as it was designed.

Joe, I am right there in the minority with you. I loved the idea of a 12-team main event, and really liked the Dirty Dozen as it was set up. I liked the idea of ending it Sept 1, though that wasn't the draw. I'd rather have had the contest run, and would have given up that feature no problem. I really cannot believe that even with the $75,000 bonus tied to the contest that people would not sign up for it.

Some guys mentioned it already, but I think maybe having the $750 and $1500 OCs may have pulled some signups from the Dirty Dozens, as well. There definitely seemed to be more signed up for those high priced OCs than there were in the Dirty Dozens. So, if whatever you go ahead with next year is a 12-team event, I would strongly consider not offering the $750 and $1500 OCs. If you go with a 15-team event, then definitely keep them, though.

I also agree with the suggestions about saving time. Especially FAAB time. I like both suggestions about limiting the number of FAAB moves (though I highly doubt the majority would like that idea), as well as the suggestion to maybe do FAAB just once a month. Combining their posts, 36 rounds with once a month FAAB sounds like an idea.

If you do make this a 15-team event next year, I will not be taking an entry. I understand the NFBC 15-team purists that like the idea of using this single-entry event as a feeder into the Main Event. But, to me, that is what all the DCs and satellite leagues are for. But, if you offer it as a 12-team event, no matter what other features you offer it with, I will be taking a team. There needs to be a 12-team main event, in my opinion. The $350 entry OC is not a "main event". Football has the Classic and the Primetime in addition to the OC. I just cannot understand why a 12-team main event cannot gain traction with NFBC folks. But I know I am in the minority here, right next to Joe.

I'm with you as well and I think the argument against the 12 team is that it's too easy and there's always someone good available on FAAB. I think limiting the number of FAAB moves or/and FAAB periods will make this a tougher 12 team than the OC AND will also limit the time we have to spend on FAAB.

I think making this a 12 team single entry "main event" will fill a gap in the contests currently offered. Greg and Tom just need to find the right twist in the rules based on the suggestions made to appeal to as many people as possible.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Most veterans in touch with me did not sign up for the Dirty Dozens for two reasons.
Sept 1 end of season ( Primary reason most likely) and 12 team leagues...this, after the League prizes were fixed.
No player I talked with said it was about FAAB. Not one.
And if looking at the first posts in this thread, FAAB is not mentioned by those veterans as well.
OC's and the Main Event are going great guns this year. FAAB formats.

Why blame FAAB?

[DOUGHBOYS]

Allow me to wax poetic for a minute (more than a minute, I'm lying)....

The reason why I am getting a little passionate about the one entrant contest is that it took me back to the times of the original Main Event. It reminded me of when I saw the ad in Fantasy Sports magazine and turning to my wife and saying, "How would you feel about me spending over $1,000 for a fantasy baseball team in Las Vegas?"
Then being floored when the answer was not an automatic "NO!"

Back then, it WAS one entry per drafter because all cities would draft at the same time on the same Saturday.
For a few years, it was that way.
One entrant per person. Well, except for Shawn Childs who got a buddy to draft another team for him
It was understandable why the contest had to change.
Money is at the root of all change.

Anyway, I was a little disappointed that this one entrant contest had a gimmick like the September one finish.
I maybe/kinda could have lived with a 12 team format, although those formats feel a little watered down to me after playing 15 team leagues.
But I probably would have tried.
I feel like it is a great idea for a contest.
One that could stand on its own as it once did at our genesis.
But maybe I'm just outdated and fooling myself.

For me, I don't believe that FAAB is a reason for failure.
The NFBC comes up with the flavors. It is up to us to choose and limit those flavors with our own discretion.
FAAB does take time. All good things take time.
I limit my FAAB teams as well.
But for the lure of a great ONE entrant contest, I would take the hit

[Philippe27]

Allow me to wax poetic for a minute (more than a minute, I'm lying)....

The reason why I am getting a little passionate about the one entrant contest is that it took me back to the times of the original Main Event. It reminded me of when I saw the ad in Fantasy Sports magazine and turning to my wife and saying, "How would you feel about me spending over $1,000 for a fantasy baseball team in Las Vegas?"
Then being floored when the answer was not an automatic "NO!"

Back then, it WAS one entry per drafter because all cities would draft at the same time on the same Saturday.
For a few years, it was that way.
One entrant per person. Well, except for Shawn Childs who got a buddy to draft another team for him
It was understandable why the contest had to change.
Money is at the root of all change.

Anyway, I was a little disappointed that this one entrant contest had a gimmick like the September one finish.
I maybe/kinda could have lived with a 12 team format, although those formats feel a little watered down to me after playing 15 team leagues.
But I probably would have tried.
I feel like it is a great idea for a contest.
One that could stand on its own as it once did at our genesis.
But maybe I'm just outdated and fooling myself.

For me, I don't believe that FAAB is a reason for failure.
The NFBC comes up with the flavors. It is up to us to choose and limit those flavors with our own discretion.
FAAB does take time. All good things take time.
I limit my FAAB teams as well.
But for the lure of a great ONE entrant contest, I would take the hit

Thanks for explaining that side of it. From someone who'll be playing for only the third season this year, single entry is a slight difference but I mean in the Main Event last year there were 341 unique owners out of 510 teams and the most was 7. The average finishing position of the owners with multiple teams was 232 and for single entries it was 281. It's not like DFS where a newbie has to go against a pro with 150 entries and I don't think there's really an advantage to having multiple teams.

I'd love to see a single entry contest that can become as big as the Main Event and not just be the Main Event's little brother. I mean if I'm going to spend hours every week setting lineups and doing FAAB bids, I'd rather do it at a higher price point with a chance to win more money. If I find time for a 5th FAAB team, I'd rather just give myself an extra shot in the Main Event.

Sounds like where at opposite ends of the spectrum but I do understand the nostalgia behind the single entry now. I'm not sure where the majority lies though.

[DOUGHBOYS]

Thanks for the understanding!
Here's hoping that Greg and Company can come up with something that will appeal to everybody for next year.

[Greg Ambrosius]

I enjoy the discussion, so keep it going. And like Dan, I love nostalgic stories too!!

But one thing I do want to point out is that the $750 and $1500 OCs didn't prevent the Dirty Dozens from succeeding. We currently have 13 $1500 signups and 36 $750 OCs, some of those from people who moved from the Dirty Dozens to the $750s. In total that's less than 80 teams that wanted to play in a 12-team format at $750, $1,000 or $1,500.

It's the 12-team format here, more than anything else. No idea why, but that's a big part (okay FAAB in that format has a lot to do with it). As Dan said, the Sept. 1st cutoff was a turnoff for some who may have considered this, but I'm convinced it wasn't a big enough factor that would have had us going from 30 teams to 192. We've tried this twice now and we don't need to be banged over the head a third time to find out what our customers want. Let's give it to them next year.

The single-entry concept for season-long is needed. We've figured it out for football. Baseball will be tougher, but we will figure it out.