Next Year is Coming Fast

croakerkane
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by croakerkane » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:07 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:13 pm
croakerkane wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:37 am
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:17 pm
Almost 400 'views' on this topic in 24 hours.
Proving that the silent minority is, indeed, the majority on these Boards :D
It's also nice to know that these Boards are not dead. :)
Thanks for tuning in.
No offense, but, Duh..... You want to change the whole fantasy baseball landscape for a once in a generation player? He'll be a multi-positional player next year. You can draft him at will, and then decide which of the two positions you want to start him at in a given week. Starting pitcher or DH/outfielder. Under your argument, I could start Bregman twice at both shortstop AND third base in a given week. God forbid if Marwin Gonzalez got hot for a week or two. Ridiculous.
You're confusing multi-positions with a two-way player.
Much as previous posters are confusing a good hitting pitcher with a two-way player.
True two-way players can help in 10 categories, not five.
They are not like Bregman or Gonzalez or Zack Greinke.
Incomparable, as of now.
By the way, another two-way player, Brendan McKay starts tonight.
There are others in the minor leagues.
Ohtani is the genesis, there are others coming.
Our hobby should be embracing such players.
They aren't. Have it your way. All good.
I understand resistance to any change. Happens constantly in our hobby. Don't break the status quo.
Way back when, twice a week lineups were called 'ridiculous'. Yet, here we are. Now, a norm.
When instituted, some said the fantasy landscape would change with too many decisions. We weathered that storm! :D
Change takes time. It's too early for most to fathom these players. Got it.
Compartmentalizing two-way players is the answer for now. Got it.
In the future, I believe we will look back and chuckle that we minimized these players.
You're confusing actual baseball with fantasy baseball. There are no two-way players in fantasy baseball, and for good reason.

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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:16 am

If the 'good reason' is that the NFBC does not want to program for a two-way player, you are correct.

Its been done on other sites and the world is still revolving.
Ignoring statistics of a player has never been done in fantasy baseball. We've used all stats.
Even when we couldn't use Barry Bonds name, we still used his statistics.
Greg even makes us include playoff games because they 'count'. Now, we don't count Ohtani?
It is, now, 'good reason' that we ignore a DH stats? Just because he also pitches?
By the way, it is ironic and amusing that we are minimizing or ignoring hitting stats from a player in baseball who is a DESIGNATED HITTER.

I understand the programming side may make it a little difficult. And that the decision is based more on that than anything else.
Ignoring statistics because of a players versatility is not the fantasy baseball way.
Heck, after 10 games playing at a position, we've added value to a player by giving him more versatility.
Our game has always been about enhancing players like this. Celebrating them. At least, till now.
But the decision is made and we'll just pretend like the Angels don't have a DH when Ohtani is there.
All good.

For years in Fantasy Football, a WR or RB would score on a punt or kick return. Instead of rewarding points to these individual players, most leagues preferred to allow the points to go to the team's DEF/ST.
The punt or kick return touchdowns, ignored individually.
Now these returns, including by the NFFC, are counted as also individual points in most leagues even though they don't come from the line of scrimmage.
In time, I'm hoping the same for Ohtani and other two-way players in baseball.


EDIT-
I've received several communications about Ohtani.
The best suggestion I've heard in the actual use of Ohtani in the NFBC would be this....
Ohtani would have a star or (2) after his name in drafting to designate him as a two way player.
Once drafted, his owner can then use him as a Pitcher (taking one of the nine starting roster spots)
And as a DH, (taking one of the 14 hitter spots as a U) if he wishes.
He can also bench him as either a Pitcher or Hitter.
The decision, his.
This would, of course, increase Ohtani's 'value', just as it does in real baseball.
Instead of a six-ten rounder as a P only, he would be a probable third-eighth rounder with both capabilities.

It would also add a new level of excitement to drafts.
Pigeon-holing Ohtani as either a pitcher or hitter is child's play for us.
Drafting a player that is versatile enough to do both would have a lot of different outcomes in terms of where he would be drafted.

EDIT EDIT-
Just thinking about Draft Champions drafts in which Ohtani may be drafted higher.
That game is one of attrition.
A fella like Ohtani, if staying healthy all year, would be a real benefit and asset to the game.
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jvetter
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by jvetter » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:58 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:16 am

EDIT-
I've received several communications about Ohtani.
The best suggestion I've heard in the actual use of Ohtani in the NFBC would be this....
Ohtani would have a star or (2) after his name in drafting to designate him as a two way player.
Once drafted, his owner can then use him as a Pitcher (taking one of the nine starting roster spots)
And as a DH, (taking one of the 14 hitter spots as a U) if he wishes.
He can also bench him as either a Pitcher or Hitter.
The decision, his.
This would, of course, increase Ohtani's 'value', just as it does in real baseball.
Instead of a six-ten rounder as a P only, he would be a probable third-eighth rounder with both capabilities.

It would also add a new level of excitement to drafts.
Pigeon-holing Ohtani as either a pitcher or hitter is child's play for us.
Drafting a player that is versatile enough to do both would have a lot of different outcomes in terms of where he would be drafted.
I like this idea a lot.

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Yah Mule
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Yah Mule » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:47 am

The best thing about the 2020 season will be the end of 40 man rosters in September. Starting next year, rosters will expand to 28 players instead. Baseball was the only sport that drastically changed the rules of their game for the final month of the regular season.

Philippe27
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Philippe27 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:12 am

Yah Mule wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:47 am
The best thing about the 2020 season will be the end of 40 man rosters in September. Starting next year, rosters will expand to 28 players instead. Baseball was the only sport that drastically changed the rules of their game for the final month of the regular season.
Agreed, I can't stand those 10-0 blowout games where every hitter comes out in the 6th, feels like Spring Training.

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Deadheadz
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:43 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:16 am
Its been done on other sites and the world is still revolving.
Ignoring statistics of a player has never been done in fantasy baseball. We've used all stats.
Even when we couldn't use Barry Bonds name, we still used his statistics.
We’ve used all stats?!???

That is total BS.

Do we count the hitting stats for Max Scherzer or Madison Bumgarner?

No we don’t.

If you truly want Ohtani’s hitting stats to count in fantasy when he’s in the Angel’s rotation then you have to accept the same benefit or damage caused by the hitting stats of the reminder of your pitching roster.

I’m not saying that’s what I want. I’m saying your argument is bullshit.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:37 pm

Deadheadz wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:43 pm
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:16 am
Its been done on other sites and the world is still revolving.
Ignoring statistics of a player has never been done in fantasy baseball. We've used all stats.
Even when we couldn't use Barry Bonds name, we still used his statistics.
We’ve used all stats?!???

That is total BS.

Do we count the hitting stats for Max Scherzer or Madison Bumgarner?

No we don’t.

If you truly want Ohtani’s hitting stats to count in fantasy when he’s in the Angel’s rotation then you have to accept the same benefit or damage caused by the hitting stats of the reminder of your pitching roster.

I’m not saying that’s what I want. I’m saying your argument is bullshit.
I thought that all would see the context of the argument.
The post was on the NFBC Message Boards where the rules are known and MOST everybody would know the context.
Of course, you go the literal mile... :roll:

We're having a conversation in how to use the two-way effectiveness of Shohei Ohtani and other players who may be of two way quality later.
Of course, we don't use National League pitchers hitting statistics. I didn't think that needed to be said.
But I guess it does....for ONE person.

EDIT- Just to be clear, because obviously, I am not being clear to ONE person...
We have used the statistics of every pitcher that has been 'labeled' a pitcher. (We don't use the pitching statistics of position players who enter games)
We use ALL these Pitchers pitching statistics.
We have used the statistics of every position hitter and designated hitter who has had at bats.
We have used ALL of these hitters hitting statistics.

Ohtani qualifies as both a hitter (DH) and a Pitcher. Hopefully that is clear. Thank you.
Last edited by DOUGHBOYS on Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:06 pm

This does bring to mind something else though...
Besides Managers trying to be schmart by batting pitchers eighth in some cases, most pitchers, through time, have batted ninth.
Even the Babe.
When Ruth was the best hitter on teams he pitched for, the Manager would still bat him ninth when pitching.
In 1917, the Babe was a full time pitcher who hit "the crap out of the ball" according to his Manager.
He would bat ninth.
In 1918, they allowed the Babe to play in the Outfield and pitch.
He batted cleanup 11 times, seventh once, and batted ninth seven times while pitching.
When playing the outfield, he was the third or fourth hitter.
The Babe is the only pitcher who has batted cleanup while pitching in the Major Leagues.
In Little League, High School, and College (until the DH), it was common practice for the pitcher to hit third or fourth in lineups.

The Yankees saw Ruth as a hitter. He started four games later pitching for them, hitting third or fourth in those games.

In 1915, George Sisler, a Hall of Fame first baseman, pitched 70 innings.
Sisler hit third in almost every game he played first base.
When pitching, Sisler always hit ninth.

Even then, two-way players were only really appreciated by the fans.
Managers would pigeon-hole them in the ninth spot in the lineup.
BUT, when it came to crunch time, the Manager knew what to do.
The Red Sox were in the 1918 World Series.
Ruth was the Starting Pitcher and batted fourth in the lineup.
He would drive in two runs and get the Win.
He pitched for eight innings and when removed from the mound in the tight game, his Manager put him in left field as the reliever came in.
Until Todd Worrell went to the outfield in 1987 for a totally different reason, the Babe was the only pitcher who stayed in a World Series game once he was relieved.

By the way, Ohtani has yet to hit on days that he pitches.
His Manager using the traditional DH when he pitches.
Much as things change, in some ways they stay the same :D
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Bronx Yankees » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm

Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but has the NFBC made a decision yet as to how Ohtani and potentially other two-way players will be treated in 2020? If so, do tell.

Also, along the lines of the thread of this title - "Next Year is Coming Fast" - just curious if there are plans in place to open up the draft room earlier this year as compared to prior years (and, if so, by when)? The first DC of draft season usually starts up around or right after the World Series; it'd be great to be able to do that draft in the NFBC draft room as opposed to via e-mail.

Thanks, guys.

Mike
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Deadheadz
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:48 pm

Jacob DeGrom should be a 2-way player in 2020. :twisted:
#dong
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by rickerbockerNFBC » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 pm

Bronx Yankees wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm
Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but has the NFBC made a decision yet as to how Ohtani and potentially other two-way players will be treated in 2020? If so, do tell.

Also, along the lines of the thread of this title - "Next Year is Coming Fast" - just curious if there are plans in place to open up the draft room earlier this year as compared to prior years (and, if so, by when)? The first DC of draft season usually starts up around or right after the World Series; it'd be great to be able to do that draft in the NFBC draft room as opposed to via e-mail.

Thanks, guys.

Mike
I hope they don't open the draft room early. I hope they concentrate on making the website for baseball more functional in 2020. That's where the concentration needs to be.

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Greg Ambrosius
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:46 am

Bronx Yankees wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm
Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but has the NFBC made a decision yet as to how Ohtani and potentially other two-way players will be treated in 2020? If so, do tell.

Also, along the lines of the thread of this title - "Next Year is Coming Fast" - just curious if there are plans in place to open up the draft room earlier this year as compared to prior years (and, if so, by when)? The first DC of draft season usually starts up around or right after the World Series; it'd be great to be able to do that draft in the NFBC draft room as opposed to via e-mail.

Thanks, guys.

Mike
Yes, we have said how we're going to handle Ohtani, which is the basis of this thread!!

We are programming Ohtani to be one player, a P/DH, and owners can use him as either position at the start of each week. Brendan McKay could qualify in the same role and if anyone else is worthy it would be the same way. If anything changes we'll update before this and every other season going forward.

Yes, the changes we made last year will allow us to roll over the site from year to year quicker. For football, we started drafts the day after the Super Bowl. We hope for the same type of timeline for baseball. We still have work to do after the season in giving all minor leaguers position eligibility, create the player default list, add in any rules changes and more, but hopefully when the World Series ends we'll be hosting NFBC drafts.

I know there is one e-mail league that starts before the 2019 season ends and our draft room won't be ready then. But if you're talking about the second one that usually runs, yeah, we should be ready for that one.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:48 am

rickerbockerNFBC wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:54 pm
Bronx Yankees wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm
Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but has the NFBC made a decision yet as to how Ohtani and potentially other two-way players will be treated in 2020? If so, do tell.

Also, along the lines of the thread of this title - "Next Year is Coming Fast" - just curious if there are plans in place to open up the draft room earlier this year as compared to prior years (and, if so, by when)? The first DC of draft season usually starts up around or right after the World Series; it'd be great to be able to do that draft in the NFBC draft room as opposed to via e-mail.

Thanks, guys.

Mike
I hope they don't open the draft room early. I hope they concentrate on making the website for baseball more functional in 2020. That's where the concentration needs to be.
All suggestions for better functionality are always welcome. My email ([email protected]) and phone number (715-254-5553) are always available for any discussion as well. If you think we aren't functional now, you should have seen us in 2010 or 2015 or ........
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Bronx Yankees » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:21 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:46 am
Bronx Yankees wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm
Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but has the NFBC made a decision yet as to how Ohtani and potentially other two-way players will be treated in 2020? If so, do tell.

Also, along the lines of the thread of this title - "Next Year is Coming Fast" - just curious if there are plans in place to open up the draft room earlier this year as compared to prior years (and, if so, by when)? The first DC of draft season usually starts up around or right after the World Series; it'd be great to be able to do that draft in the NFBC draft room as opposed to via e-mail.

Thanks, guys.

Mike
Yes, we have said how we're going to handle Ohtani, which is the basis of this thread!!

We are programming Ohtani to be one player, a P/DH, and owners can use him as either position at the start of each week. Brendan McKay could qualify in the same role and if anyone else is worthy it would be the same way. If anything changes we'll update before this and every other season going forward.

Yes, the changes we made last year will allow us to roll over the site from year to year quicker. For football, we started drafts the day after the Super Bowl. We hope for the same type of timeline for baseball. We still have work to do after the season in giving all minor leaguers position eligibility, create the player default list, add in any rules changes and more, but hopefully when the World Series ends we'll be hosting NFBC drafts.

I know there is one e-mail league that starts before the 2019 season ends and our draft room won't be ready then. But if you're talking about the second one that usually runs, yeah, we should be ready for that one.
Awesome! Thanks, Greg. Great having that clarity and the planned earlier access to the draft room. Yes, that was the draft I was referencing. Already looking forward to 2020 drafts. 😀

Mike
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:10 am

Terrific!
Good job NFBC!
(We should be able to use him as both a P/DH as the Angels do, but this is a great start in recognizing the two-way players.....Thanks again)
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:20 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:46 am
Yes, we have said how we're going to handle Ohtani, which is the basis of this thread!!


We are programming Ohtani to be one player, a P/DH, and owners can use him as either position at the start of each week. Brendan McKay could qualify in the same role and if anyone else is worthy it would be the same way. If anything changes we'll update before this and every other season going forward.
Greg/Tom/Darik
Please explain how this will work for Ohtani in the Cutline game.
Will it simply be he plays wherever he has the most points?
Or will he be used where his points benefit the owner the most?

If another hitter has 1 point fewer than Ohtani, his benefit might be more as a pitcher that week even if his pitcher stats earn him far fewer points.

Will I potentially take a zero at P if his pitcher points are 10 but his hitter points are 20? Forcing him to be my DH might gain me one point in hitting but cost me 10 in pitching.

We need to know this before Cutline drafts commence for 2020.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:46 am

jvetter wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:58 pm
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:16 am

The best suggestion I've heard in the actual use of Ohtani in the NFBC would be this....
Ohtani would have a star or (2) after his name in drafting to designate him as a two way player.
Once drafted, his owner can then use him as a Pitcher (taking one of the nine starting roster spots)
And as a DH, (taking one of the 14 hitter spots as a U) if he wishes.
He can also bench him as either a Pitcher or Hitter.
The decision, his.
This would, of course, increase Ohtani's 'value', just as it does in real baseball.
Instead of a six-ten rounder as a P only, he would be a probable third-eighth rounder with both capabilities.

It would also add a new level of excitement to drafts.
Pigeon-holing Ohtani as either a pitcher or hitter is child's play for us.
Drafting a player that is versatile enough to do both would have a lot of different outcomes in terms of where he would be drafted.
I like this idea a lot.
This would be a better fit for Cutline too.
Just sayin'....... :D
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Deadheadz
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:01 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:46 am
This would be a better fit for Cutline too.
Just sayin'....... :D
In roto you decide each week if you want him to be a P or DH? Remember how the Angels seemed to pitch him usually on Sundays? Makes you decide Monday about his Sunday start.

In Cutline what happens? We don’t set lineups in Cutline.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:31 am

Deadheadz wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:01 pm
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:46 am
This would be a better fit for Cutline too.
Just sayin'....... :D
In roto you decide each week if you want him to be a P or DH? Remember how the Angels seemed to pitch him usually on Sundays? Makes you decide Monday about his Sunday start.

In Cutline what happens? We don’t set lineups in Cutline.
In the example given, his owner can decide to bench and/or pitch/hit Ohtani every week for lineups.

I have to admit I am not a Cutline person.
But, in the example above, If Best-Ball, Ohtani would be in play if one of your best nine pitchers and/or the best hitter from the U position on a given team. His owner would receive the benefits of both.

I was mostly joshin' anyways.
Greg has said that Ohtani will be P/DH, not both at the same time.
I don't know how that works for Cutline.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:05 pm

I’ll ask again:

Greg/Tom/Darik
Please explain how this will work for Ohtani in the Cutline game.
Will it simply be he plays wherever he has the most points?
Or will he be used where his points benefit the owner the most?

If another hitter has 1 point fewer than Ohtani, his benefit might be more as a pitcher that week even if his pitcher stats earn him far fewer points.

Will we potentially take a zero at P if his pitcher points are 10 but his hitter points are 20? Forcing him to be your DH might gain you one point in hitting but cost you 10 in pitching.

We need to know this before Cutline drafts commence for 2020.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Philippe27 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:08 am

You may want to e-mail Greg for confirmation but from the rules: Every team's optimal scoring lineup will be automatically scored each week (Monday through Sunday) from the required 23 starting positions.

Never played cutline but i assume they optimize the lineup for hitters with multi position eligibility so it'll be the same with Ohtani. They'll start him where he benefits you the most, not where he scores the most points.

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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:54 am

Deadheadz: It's optimal scoring lineup for the Cutline. He will go where your team scores the most points with him. If he's worth 20 pitching points and that's among your highest scoring pitchers for the week he will go there. If he scores 10 hitting points and he's your highest scoring DH, where do you think he will go?? Pitcher.
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:10 pm

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:54 am
Deadheadz: It's optimal scoring lineup for the Cutline. He will go where your team scores the most points with him. If he's worth 20 pitching points and that's among your highest scoring pitchers for the week he will go there. If he scores 10 hitting points and he's your highest scoring DH, where do you think he will go?? Pitcher.
Greg, I think you missed my point so I will clarify it for you.

Example:
Your team has 400 points for the week not counting the DH slot and 9th pitcher slot.

Ohtani has 20 hitter points, 10 pitcher points.

You have a random bench hitter with 19 points and all your bench pitchers have 0 points.

With Ohtani counting as hitter your team total is 420.

With Ohtani counting as pitcher your team total is 429.

Optimally you would count his 10 pitcher points not his 20 hitter points.

Will Cutline take these situations into account or will it simply force Ohtani as a hitter because his 20 points are better than the 19 points of the next hitter?
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Re: Next Year is Coming Fast

Post by Deadheadz » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:04 pm

Bumping due to unanswered question.

Greg, if you refuse to answer because you feel the answer is obvious then I’ll accept that.

I just hope that when you refer to “optimal scoring” it’s for the overall team not just Ohtani being shoehorned into Hitter or Pitcher based solely on which position gained him more points.
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