Rules for 2020

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Baseball Furies » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:24 pm

COZ wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:33 pm
I vote to get rid of Game 163. How we include a game in a season long contest where it is not even known whether the game will be played until late afternoon/evening on the last Sunday of the season AT THE END OF THE CONTEST & then proclaim “sorry folks all games count,” is silly. It adds nothing to the contest & reeks of a gimmicky DFS-manufactured type drama of which most players don’t want after 6 months. Picking up players a week before a game that may not even occur is pure happenstance, and is done only in an attempt to try to garner an extra pitching start, etc. This puts some players at a disadvantage to others who, by pure happenstance, not skill, don’t have players playing in the play-in games. The NFBC, in my opinion, should adopt a rule that the contest includes only games that are REGULARY scheduled at the start of the season & any make-up games of regularly scheduled games but not play-in or tie-breaker games.

Yet another voice of reason and from someone you wouldn't normally think possible of this. :P :lol: +1 COZ and well stated. ;)
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by NorCalAtlFan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:55 am

Baseball Furies wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:24 pm
COZ wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:33 pm
I vote to get rid of Game 163. How we include a game in a season long contest where it is not even known whether the game will be played until late afternoon/evening on the last Sunday of the season AT THE END OF THE CONTEST & then proclaim “sorry folks all games count,” is silly. It adds nothing to the contest & reeks of a gimmicky DFS-manufactured type drama of which most players don’t want after 6 months. Picking up players a week before a game that may not even occur is pure happenstance, and is done only in an attempt to try to garner an extra pitching start, etc. This puts some players at a disadvantage to others who, by pure happenstance, not skill, don’t have players playing in the play-in games. The NFBC, in my opinion, should adopt a rule that the contest includes only games that are REGULARY scheduled at the start of the season & any make-up games of regularly scheduled games but not play-in or tie-breaker games.

Yet another voice of reason and from someone you wouldn't normally think possible of this. :P :lol: +1 COZ and well stated. ;)
Seconded.

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:27 am

We have had this discussion before and like this thread there have been viewpoints from both sides:

https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.p ... me#p203578

Some viewpoints have changed during the years. In fact, Dan posted this just two years ago:

by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:42 am

I have been killed by this rule.
Most notably, I dropped from third to fourth in the Main Event overall in 2007, costing $5000 if memory serves right.
I have also lost a Draft Champions league on a 163rd game.
Still, I believe the NFBC has it right.
Although we could never, ever plan for this, it is a regular season game.

Here's another thread: https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.p ... e&start=50
And another: https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.p ... me#p166680

There has been a 163rd game 5 times in 16 NFBC seasons:

2007
2008
2009
2013
2018 (four teams)

As King of Queens stated, in 9 of our 16 seasons teams have played 161 games instead of 162, consisting of 28 different teams being short-changed by one game. Twelve teams during that time have had one extra game.

Our position from the start has been that we want our stats to mirror those exactly of Major League Baseball. Since MLB considers the play-in game as part of the regular season -- where individual records and results can be added to -- we have included it. Is there some luck in getting one extra game for owners? Yes, the same unluck that you get with teams playing only 161 games. I understand WE can rectify that by not including it, but as others have said then let's discuss getting rid of the last week. Maybe get rid of the last two weeks. Instead of going down any of those paths, we've chosen for 16 years to mirror what MLB does and include every regular season game played.

I'm not trying to interject into the conversation because I always like rules discussions, but some have asked why we include this game. And I've stated the same thing on each thread for this subject: We are mirroring the MLB regular season. I understand fantasy football doesn't include all 17 weeks of the regular season and WE COULD CHANGE this if needed. We have been very consistent with our rules from Day 1 and that includes this rule. There is no consensus that one way is far better than the other way -- differing viewpoints are strong from both sides just from the threads I've posted here so far -- but keep the discussion going. I'll step aside and keep tabs of both sides.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:47 am

What's the point of further discussion, Greg?
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:53 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:47 am
What's the point of further discussion, Greg?
Did you really expect me to change the rule because of this thread? Further discussion shows viewpoints from both sides, but you are right, if we've already seen both sides then we can move on.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:58 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:53 am
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:47 am
What's the point of further discussion, Greg?
Did you really expect me to change the rule because of this thread? Further discussion shows viewpoints from both sides, but you are right, if we've already seen both sides then we can move on.
No.
What I was hoping for was an open mind.
A lot of folks want a rule change. I thought it may lead to you talking to others and maybe taking a poll.
Instead, it is the old saw about mirroring MLB and its always been the rule.
Continue discussion and enjoy!
It is clear the rule will not be changed.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by NorCalAtlFan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:02 am

well, that's that. must be football season

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Gekko » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:04 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:58 am
Continue discussion and enjoy!
It is clear the rule will not be changed.
Seconded

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by BartoloColonsFitbit » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:54 am

How about cutting off at 162 in DC’s?

I won $$$ because of this in 2018. Had German Marquez and a few other players in game 163. It’s a cool story and I appreciated the prize, but it felt a little dirty.

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by BartoloColonsFitbit » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:00 am

Actually I had three pitchers. Marquez, Chacin, and Quintana, lol

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by ToddZ » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:00 pm

Given I'm ambivalent to the extended season rule, something I don't like is having the chance to reset the lineup on Monday. Personally, I feel if the games count, everyone's Week 26 lineup should be locked in for the extra games.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:39 pm

ToddZ wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:00 pm
Given I'm ambivalent to the extended season rule, something I don't like is having the chance to reset the lineup on Monday. Personally, I feel if the games count, everyone's Week 26 lineup should be locked in for the extra games.
And this is a worthy discussion. We've allowed people to make lineup changes on that Monday in the past because we wanted to allow those owners the chance to decide if they wanted to start or even sit certain players (maybe you don't want another start from your pitcher). And as Gekko said, there was some FAAB strategy involved by some owners in Week 27 as they tried to anticipate who would possibly get one more start.

But since this play-in game is unexpected, maybe lineups should remain locked for that final week. It's worth discussing.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Philippe27 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:47 pm

I don't see the point of just removing Game 163. Yes it's mostly luck but a starter getting scratched for game 162 because his team clinched the playoffs on game 161 is just as much luck. If we're keeping the last week because we want to mirror the regular season stats then let's keep game 163 because it's part of the regular season.

With that said, I don't get the point of mirroring the regular season stats either because out of hundreds of hitters there's probably only 30 that stay in lineups every week. Many will get hurt, and anyone outside the top 50 hitters is likely on our bench if they have 2 games Mon-Thur or Fri-Sun.

I'd be in favor of removing the last week but I'd also be okay with keeping it as is for one more year and see how it goes next year with the 28-man September roster.

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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Baseball Furies » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:35 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:27 am
We have had this discussion before and like this thread there have been viewpoints from both sides:

https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.p ... me#p203578

Some viewpoints have changed during the years. In fact, Dan posted this just two years ago:

by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:42 am

I have been killed by this rule.
Most notably, I dropped from third to fourth in the Main Event overall in 2007, costing $5000 if memory serves right.
I have also lost a Draft Champions league on a 163rd game.
Still, I believe the NFBC has it right.
Although we could never, ever plan for this, it is a regular season game.

Here's another thread: https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.p ... e&start=50
And another: https://nfbcforums.shgn.com/viewtopic.p ... me#p166680

There has been a 163rd game 5 times in 16 NFBC seasons:

2007
2008
2009
2013
2018 (four teams)

As King of Queens stated, in 9 of our 16 seasons teams have played 161 games instead of 162, consisting of 28 different teams being short-changed by one game. Twelve teams during that time have had one extra game.

Our position from the start has been that we want our stats to mirror those exactly of Major League Baseball. Since MLB considers the play-in game as part of the regular season -- where individual records and results can be added to -- we have included it. Is there some luck in getting one extra game for owners? Yes, the same unluck that you get with teams playing only 161 games. I understand WE can rectify that by not including it, but as others have said then let's discuss getting rid of the last week. Maybe get rid of the last two weeks. Instead of going down any of those paths, we've chosen for 16 years to mirror what MLB does and include every regular season game played.

I'm not trying to interject into the conversation because I always like rules discussions, but some have asked why we include this game. And I've stated the same thing on each thread for this subject: We are mirroring the MLB regular season. I understand fantasy football doesn't include all 17 weeks of the regular season and WE COULD CHANGE this if needed. We have been very consistent with our rules from Day 1 and that includes this rule. There is no consensus that one way is far better than the other way -- differing viewpoints are strong from both sides just from the threads I've posted here so far -- but keep the discussion going. I'll step aside and keep tabs of both sides.
And here folks is the EXACT reason why there needs to be comprehensive, non-bias, surveying and analysis of the entire situation. Greg, what's so infuriating to the vast majority of us who will neither speak up on these boards nor to you directly is that you are mostly intractable to changing anything with the rules even if it's for the betterment of your game and perhaps the majority of your clientele may actually desire it. And the easy solution is staring you right in the face. This will absolutely NOT be resolved via message board debate. It's a volatile enough issue with the kind of money that is on the line...and it's OUR MONEY that is on line. It's really easy to run a game in which you have zero skin on a personal investment level, and watch it from the sidelines for six months, and then take a "dems the breaks" attitude if some of us are screwed out of our money due to an uneven and unfair playing field which YOUR rules, not MLB's allow for. So please stop attempting to conflate the two. You can't have a double standard with the NFL season which is apparently not "sacred" as is the hallowed season of MLB which must be followed EXACTLY down to the last game. This is just asinine logic. And yes, we are well aware that you have your minority backers who are your non-boat rockers who will tow the party line on your behalf no matter what, but that's not going to get innovation and change to happen.

Dough's frustration and others among us is that you are often defensive, dismissive, and close-minded when it comes to your PAYING clientele, and in particular your big money paying clientele who have contributed handsomely to your competition over the years since its inception not only financially, but via their creative and innovative contributions as well which have paid huge dividends on behalf of you and the NFBC. Every year it's something, and every year we can predict the exact initial response from you. What you do from here, is ultimately up to you. But I can tell you it really would serve you well not to take the same tact with this matter and ultimately stonewall it until it is swept under the carpet for another season. Even the simplest most common sense change suggestions from last season having to do with the early morning timing of some your live draft starts and the spacing of time between drafts particularly in NY were punted on after they were virtually dismissed out of hand. So now we have plenty of lead time for some serious 2020 decisions that should be addressed and made, and we're off to the same start as last year.

And full disclosure to all reading this, for the last two years now I have suggested to Greg and the powers that be to consider setting up live focus groups of NFBC veteran clientele, many of whom are some of the best thinking minds in the game, who were willing to take the time to do so on behalf of the NFBC to do live round-tables in NY and/or Vegas. This was to be for the benefit of bringing contributions, suggestions, ideas, and insights for consideration on how to improve on the quality, service, rules, contests etc. on behalf of this game and competition that we are all so passionate about and love so much. But though acknowledged for its merits, this was ignored and has yet to come to fruition which is unfortunate.

So yes, once again, I'm sure I'll be viewed as the trouble-making bad guy. Fine. I'll deal with it. I always do. You may not like hearing it from me and others, but if you didn't, rest assured any of the innovation and change that has happened for the betterment of this competition and your product and services would not have happened if some of us weren't so vehement and insistent about them whether you care to admit it or not. They are far too extensive to start listing here in this post for the edification of all who may not be aware of them, but I can start a separate thread about them all if need be. Hopefully, there won't be any need for this, and the wheels can be set in motion to start addressing the change of not only the NFBC current rule of "Game 163+", but much needed improvement and change in other areas as well.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:02 am

Ahhhhh, we listen. We just take a long time to make changes around here. For instance, here's a couple of examples:

2020 Main Event Las Vegas on Saturday, March 21st will now start at 11 am PT
2020 Main Event New York on Sunday, March 15th will now start at 10 am ET. The $1400 Auction Championship will follow at 2 pm ET.

They were good recommendations and the software allows us to start later because the Mains get done so quickly. We may switch the two Diamonds as well on Sunday, March 22nd.

It's obvious from the posts on this thread and on past threads that making the change on the play-in game isn't a slam dunk consensus. We certainly have time to survey our customers on this subject and other subjects and likely will, but we can still launch the site as is.

It's a weird feeling around here. For the first time in about 350 days we don't have any drafts going on. Football is done (except for Guillotine leagues tonight and tomorrow) and basketball is now done. There's been online drafts going continuously since the second week of November last year, whether that be baseball, football, basketball or hockey. Nothing right now. Time to fire up the NFBC draft room and get this rolling in another 10 days. Can't wait.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:16 am

Greg,

At one time I agreed with you that all statistics should count. I'm old school as much as the next guy. It just seems like the right thing to do.
I get it.

You said in another post that you don't like the ticky-tack penalties being called in the NFL.
The referees have their hands tied. They must throw a flag because they are a slave to the current rules.
We want to fault them, knowing that it is not their fault.
The only way to change the ticky-tack calls is to change the rules for everybody's benefit.

2020, Game 163, Cubs vs Mets
Jupinka has a two point lead in the Overall
Lindy on his heels.
Jupinka has no Cubs. No Mets.
Lindy has Jon Lester.
The Cubs beat the Mets. Lester is used vs. two left handed batters, striking out one and getting the other out.
Lindy ekes out a half point victory.

My guess is that the outpouring of condolences for Jupinka would far outweigh the congratulations to Lindy.
The effect towards the NFBC would be negative, not positive.
Lindy would sure take the win, but not feel great about it.
The Win only came because of a bad rule.
Why? Because it's a ticky-tack way to win.
It doesn't represent our six month grind and all that we put into our teams during that time.
You are standing on the principle that all the stats being counted means more than those playing our game.
In a way, it's old school noble. In more ways, not good for our game.

I hear from a lot of NFBC folks, as you do. Most of the folks I talk with, dislike the rule.
THAT is why I started the thread.
We can convolute the arguments and mention last FAAB or no FAAB help for DC's or lineups for game 163, but none of those arguments would be necessary if game 163 did not exist in the first place.

I know this is falling on deaf ears. But, I am not going to apologize for my passion in making this the best game.
Thanks for the forum to express that passion.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by ToddZ » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:28 am

Honest question, not trying to troll. I'm on the fence and am looking for a reason to be swayed either way.

What's the difference between extra innings and the extra game(s)? What isn't there a push to exclude stats in extra innings?

I'm not a gambler, but I suspect if you bet the under on an 8.5 line and the game is tied 4-4 after nine innings, you lose the best since at least one more run must be scored. Stats are counted until the end of the game, why shouldn't we count stats until the end of the season?

Again, not trolling, asking honestly. What's the difference between extra innings and Game 163?
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:33 am

ToddZ wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:28 am
Honest question, not trying to troll. I'm on the fence and am looking for a reason to be swayed either way.

What's the difference between extra innings and the extra game(s)? What isn't there a push to exclude stats in extra innings?

I'm not a gambler, but I suspect if you bet the under on an 8.5 line and the game is tied 4-4 after nine innings, you lose the best since at least one more run must be scored. Stats are counted until the end of the game, why shouldn't we count stats until the end of the season?

Again, not trolling, asking honestly. What's the difference between extra innings and Game 163?
Extra innings is a consequence of each MLB game it effects. We count the statistics as we go along.
Whether it be a rain shortened five inning game or 15 inning game. Counted.

Game 163 is in our hands.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by ToddZ » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:36 am

Extra innings are in our hands - don't count them. Rain shortened games are akin to a postponement not made up. The extra game(s) are a consequence of the regular season.

Not convinced... yet.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:43 am

Part of the convolution, Todd.
Extra innings and rain shortened games are part of the regular season process. We count the stats of all games that are scheduled whether five, nine, or 15 innings long.

The playoff game is not part of the regular season. It is not scheduled. It is a by-product of Major League baseball capitalizing on more games to make more money.
Other sports have eliminated that process. Not MLB.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by ToddZ » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:01 am

Dan, it's not a playoff game. The regular season determines who makes the playoffs. If after 162 games, teams are tied, another regular season game is needed to determine who makes the playoffs. Continuing to call is a playoff game because you want to does not make it as such. Game 163 is a regular season game, used to determine who makes the playoffs.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by Greg Ambrosius » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:04 am

Dan, we both talk to a lot of NFBC veterans and that's why I know it's not a slam dunk one way or the other. You yourself posted just two short years ago that you thought the rule was right because it was part of the MLB regular season. So you've gone full circle since 2017.

I'm not against doing a survey and making a change to a rule that the vast majority of our customers think is a bad one if we have one. We want a game as perfect as can be, but we don't make rash changes to the game either. Again, what's the next push: To get rid of the last week of the season? Two weeks? To change Wins?

That being said, Todd's point is valid as baseball is a strange game. A lot of folks are battling for money positions in that last week when strange things happen (a game gets cancelled, a SP like Aaron Nola gets pulled on Sunday, a play-in game, extra inning games, shortened games) and yet we try to follow the entire regular season. As KOQ said, if Pete Alonso hits 4 HRs in that play-in game and wins the HR and RBI titles, should we have counted that regular season game or not? Some say no, some say yes.

Our rules have said yes since 2004 and that play-in game has happened in 5 of 16 seasons. I guess the best way to get a true feel of how EVERYONE feels is to send out a survey and hope as many folks answer as possible. Let's see what else we can ask in that survey.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:08 am

ToddZ wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:01 am
Dan, it's not a playoff game. The regular season determines who makes the playoffs. If after 162 games, teams are tied, another regular season game is needed to determine who makes the playoffs. Continuing to call is a playoff game because you want to does not make it as such. Game 163 is a regular season game, used to determine who makes the playoffs.
Todd, it is even called a playoff game by everyone. We all know what it really is. The effects are the same. Lose and your out.
Because MLB chooses to place the statistics in the regular season column, some look at it as a regular season game.
In almost every way, it certainly is not.

For our fantasy game, I believe most folks find far more benefits in not adding that game to our game.
It extends the season, it unevens the playing field.
It is like our Mother-in-law knocking on our door after thinking she left.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:09 am

Greg Ambrosius wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:04 am
Dan, we both talk to a lot of NFBC veterans and that's why I know it's not a slam dunk one way or the other. You yourself posted just two short years ago that you thought the rule was right because it was part of the MLB regular season. So you've gone full circle since 2017.

I'm not against doing a survey and making a change to a rule that the vast majority of our customers think is a bad one if we have one. We want a game as perfect as can be, but we don't make rash changes to the game either. Again, what's the next push: To get rid of the last week of the season? Two weeks? To change Wins?

That being said, Todd's point is valid as baseball is a strange game. A lot of folks are battling for money positions in that last week when strange things happen (a game gets cancelled, a SP like Aaron Nola gets pulled on Sunday, a play-in game, extra inning games, shortened games) and yet we try to follow the entire regular season. As KOQ said, if Pete Alonso hits 4 HRs in that play-in game and wins the HR and RBI titles, should we have counted that regular season game or not? Some say no, some say yes.

Our rules have said yes since 2004 and that play-in game has happened in 5 of 16 seasons. I guess the best way to get a true feel of how EVERYONE feels is to send out a survey and hope as many folks answer as possible. Let's see what else we can ask in that survey.
Thanks Greg. I appreciate that.
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Re: Rules for 2020

Post by ToddZ » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:31 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:08 am
ToddZ wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:01 am
Dan, it's not a playoff game. The regular season determines who makes the playoffs. If after 162 games, teams are tied, another regular season game is needed to determine who makes the playoffs. Continuing to call is a playoff game because you want to does not make it as such. Game 163 is a regular season game, used to determine who makes the playoffs.
Todd, it is even called a playoff game by everyone. We all know what it really is. The effects are the same. Lose and your out.
Because MLB chooses to place the statistics in the regular season column, some look at it as a regular season game.
In almost every way, it certainly is not.

For our fantasy game, I believe most folks find far more benefits in not adding that game to our game.
It extends the season, it unevens the playing field.
It is like our Mother-in-law knocking on our door after thinking she left.
No, it's not called a playoff game. That's a straw man's argument. Some may refer to it as a playoff game. If two teams are tied after 161 and play each other on the last day of the season, is that a playoff game? No, it's not. Because it has the traits of a playoff game does not make it a playoff game.

You haven't addressed the original question. How goes the extra game(s) uneven the playing field any more than an extra inning game in May? Some guy not even starting pinch hits a 3-run homer in the 10th and he's in Lindy's lineup and he beats Jupinka by getting an extra point in RBI because of it -- where's the outrage?

I'm honestly trying to separate the two - but thus far can't.
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