Innings Minimum

DOUGHBOYS
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Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:18 am

I've discussed this with other NFBC mates, but want to know what others think.....

The innings minimum is 1,000 innings.
We are heading into a season where most teams are trying to conserve pitchers arms and not tax them with innings.
Most teams are using 130-150 innings as a peak for their pitchers.
Some teams like Tampa are going to spread their arms trying to get 100 innings from eight to ten pitchers.
Some teams are running a six man rotation.
Some will have more bullpen days and Openers.

It effects our game in that 1000 innings was, in most cases, an easy hurdle to clear in past seasons.
I don't think it will be easy this year and may even be looked at as a bridge too far for some.
An example was when I looked at a team on these Message Boards last night.
It happened to be Tom's Auction team in the GTD Auction.
His staff is this...

P-Clayton Kershaw 29
P-Blake Snell 25
P-Kevin Gausman 13
P-Chris Bassitt 4
P-Zach Davies 4
P-Justus Sheffield 1
P-James Karinchak 13
P-Richard Rodriguez 6
P-Amir Garrett 5

Kershaw will be babied by the Dodgers, as always. Lets give him 130 innings.
In five years, Blake Snell has only had more than 130 innings once, his Cy Young year. The Padres are probably going 6-man. Let's be kind. Lets give him 130 innings.
Kevin Gausman looks workman-like. Let's give him 150 innings.
Bassitt has only thrown over 100 innings once in his career. We'll give him 120 innings.
Davies is capable. We'll give him 140 innings.
Sheffield will be babied and be part of the Mariners 6-man rotation. 120 innings.
We'll give the three relievers 50 innings each.
That is just 940 innings.
Tom will be struggling to make the innings minimum with his top pitchers.

Let's pretend that the team has the best case of six Starters that will get 150 innings and the three relievers get 50 innings.
This is 1050 innings. Only exceeding the minimum by 50 innings.
That is with everything going right with a 6/3 fantasy rotation. 6/3's will be a tough row to hoe.


Of course, there is no certainty that these innings will be close to reality. We simply do not know.
But it does seem that lessening innings is a goal for most teams.
Do we need to do the same?
Is 1000 innings still a fair minimum going into this season?
Is 950 better? 900?
What say you?
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mkosmoski
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by mkosmoski » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:00 am

Dough

It is a Fair Question. I factored the Total IP into my Auction Strategy last night. I stayed Clear of the 6 SP and 3RP Strategy. I went with 7 SP and
2 RP. Here is the Breakdown of my Pitching Staff and I am using the Projected IP from Baseball HQ.

Trevor Bauer - 189 IP
Charlie Morton - 160 IP
Chris Paddack - 145 IP
Sixto Sanchez - 152 IP
Andrew Heaney - 160 IP
Michael Kopech - 102 IP
Devie Garcia - 131 IP
Joakim Soria - 65 IP
Trevor Rosenthal - 58 IP
Total IP 1162

So, you can see I do project to make the 1,000 Minimum IP requirement. But there is not much room if I suffer a Major Injury or guys like Kopech and Garcia fall flat. They are not guaranteed those 233 IP. Many owners will be faced chasing the Innings this year. Maybe 950 IP is a good Middle Ground?

Mike

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Bronx Yankees » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:41 am

I agree the 1,000 innings minimum is worth reconsidering for this season. My understanding is that the 1,000 innings minimum is intended to discourage crazy strategies that can throw off league and overall standings, and is intended to be a relatively easy to achieve "minimum." For 2021, however, 1,000 innings may be far more challenging to exceed than usually is the case, thereby making some adjustment - even if just for 2021 - reasonable. For instance, with pitchers throwing fewer innings following a very abbreviated 2020 season, could you even use a 6 starters/3 relievers lineup and still hit 1,000 innings? Maybe, but it will require a lot of work and regular management. For 2021, I think 900 innings, or maybe 950 innings, would be better.

Also, what happens if multiple owners do not hit the 1,000 innings minimum? It looks like, for league scoring, everyone with less than 1,000 innings would get one point in ERA and WHIP, and no one else would move up. So, if the three teams with the best ratios all finish under 1,000 innings, then they get 1 point each, and the rest of the owners would get between 1-12 points in each ratio category? Does it also work that way in terms of the overall contest? So, if there are 600 teams in the Main Event, every team with under 1,000 innings would get 1 point out of 600 in ERA and WHIP? The end of the season standings could get quite messy if there are many teams failing to hit the innings minimum.

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Baseball Furies » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:07 am

Agreed. I think this bears some serious consideration and perhaps a survey question or two could be created and sent out about this. Realistically, the game has continued to evolve and change for better or worse, and as it has, so have our rules. Greg/Tom, please take this under consideration as we could be facing a year where many of your clientele are potentially going to end up on the short end of the stick when it comes to a lot of their teams this year despite their best intentions and efforts. Thanks.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Ultrarunner » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:18 am

If it’s a FAAB league, there are tools for owners to cross the threshold.

What’s not being taken into account above is squeezing more innings using two start streamers. If you play the 3 RP chicken game all season, you’re playing with fire.

Nobody intentionally wants Julio Teheran as an everyday roster guy, but if he’s got two juicy starts in a given week, factor in those 12 innings.

I see no reason to drop the limit when everyone can manage their team to achieve it

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:38 am

Ultrarunner wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:18 am
If it’s a FAAB league, there are tools for owners to cross the threshold.

What’s not being taken into account above is squeezing more innings using two start streamers. If you play the 3 RP chicken game all season, you’re playing with fire.

Nobody intentionally wants Julio Teheran as an everyday roster guy, but if he’s got two juicy starts in a given week, factor in those 12 innings.

I see no reason to drop the limit when everyone can manage their team to achieve it
Dan, I can't picture Teheran with two juicy starts against ANY team, lol. Let alone going six innings in back to back games. Lol

Also Dan, you are not taking into account the six man rotations.
6-Man rotations almost eliminate the twice-a-week starts for pitchers in FAAB.

Sure, if we put our minds to it, we can exceed 1,000 innings.
But, it was never meant to be a hurdle.
It was just a minimum to prevent the gaming of our game.
It surely wasn't meant to prevent us from using a 6-3 alignment all season.

I agree with Mike that this should be a decrease only for this season.
The perfect storm of 6-man rotations, 7-inning Doubleheaders, covid-related loss of games which we can't foresee, and teams purposely limiting innings for all pitchers have made this a full year unlike all others.
Last edited by DOUGHBOYS on Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Philippe27
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Philippe27 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:44 am

Looking at projected innings pitched from a draft makes no sense. If Kershaw throws 130 IP, he'll do it in about 21 starts spread out over about 19 weeks so the other 7 weeks you'll get an extra 35 innings.

Even if you go 6SP /3RP and get 60 IP from your 3 relievers, it leaves 820 IP for 6 spots over 26 weeks . Say you get one 2 start pitcher per week from those 6 spots that means you need 4.5 IP/GS. If you can't get starters who throw 4.5 IP per GS, you won't win anyways.

All this rule does is prevent people from going like 3 starters and 6 relievers.

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Gekko » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:52 am

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:18 am

Do we need to do the same?
are u asking for 2021 contests that have not had any leagues drafted (ex: main event) or are you asking for all 2021 contests (even if teams have already been drafted)?

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:55 am

I believe the horses are already out of the barn for contests already started.
I was looking at the higher priced leagues near the end of March.

With more money on the line, it's a worthy discussion.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Roy's Outlaws » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:10 pm

I agreed that the innings limit should be lower to 950 innings. Now you need about 40 innings per week to reach the 1000 minimum , so you need to almost always have 7 starter per week to reach the goal. 7 starter x 5 innings =35 plus hopefully 5 from you 2 closer. Very little margin for error . plus the shorter doubleheaders and the man on 2nd base to start extra innings means less inning per team for the whole season.

Another way might be to change the rosters to start 10 pitcher per week and keep the 1000 inning limit?

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:12 pm

Besides the lower innings for pitchers, 6 man rotations, etc, I guess I am more leery of what we cannot foresee.
Covid is still rearing its ugly head.
I can see games and intended Starters lost due to the virus some lineup weeks. There may be more of these Starters lost than 2-Start pitchers to offset those losses.
Also, teams like the Cardinals and Marlins last year, may lose games off their schedule again this year.

My thought is to be pro-active and lower the minimum before it becomes a problem for larger money events.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Navel Lint » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:20 pm

In 2019 the average IP of all 570 Main Event teams was 1326, 30+% above the minimum needed innings. That was the average. Just 9 teams didn't make 1000, and I would guess they didn't make much effort at the end. Only 4% of All Main Event teams were even under 1100 innings pitched. I understand some things are different in 2021 compared to the way they were in 2019, but they aren't that different.
I don't see any statistical evidence to lower the minimum, just a bunch of what-ifs and could-happens. But I guess the minimum could be lowered to make the game easier.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by King of Queens » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:26 pm

Sounds like a worthy conversation — for 2022 contests.

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:34 pm

King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:26 pm
Sounds like a worthy conversation — for 2022 contests.
Why 2022?
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by King of Queens » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:57 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:34 pm
King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:26 pm
Sounds like a worthy conversation — for 2022 contests.
Why 2022?
1. Legality of changing rules. Roughly 300 signups for the Main Event thus far, and most of the $2500+ contests are full or almost full.

2. Preparations and planning have been made based on the innings pitched that are in the rules. Believe it or not, this would be a significant change.

3. Let’s see how 2021 plays out. We will know by mid season if this is necessary. There will be plenty of time to figure out rules changes before the 2022 contests are posted.

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:05 pm

King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:57 pm
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:34 pm
King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:26 pm
Sounds like a worthy conversation — for 2022 contests.
Why 2022?
1. Legality of changing rules. Roughly 300 signups for the Main Event thus far, and most of the $2500+ contests are full or almost full.

2. Preparations and planning have been made based on the innings pitched that are in the rules. Believe it or not, this would be a significant change.

3. Let’s see how 2021 plays out. We will know by mid season if this is necessary. There will be plenty of time to figure out rules changes before the 2022 contests are posted.
Many rules were done on the fly in real baseball and our fantasy game last year.
You are vastly selling short on the ingenuity of our players.
50 innings less of an innings minimum would be easy for these great players to adjust.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:08 pm

Let me ask this..
Would a 950 innings minimum for more expensive contests hurt anybody?
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:15 pm

By the way, Everybody.
Thanks for the participation.
A little like the old days on the Message Boards!
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by King of Queens » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:24 pm

DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:05 pm
King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:57 pm
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:34 pm


Why 2022?
1. Legality of changing rules. Roughly 300 signups for the Main Event thus far, and most of the $2500+ contests are full or almost full.

2. Preparations and planning have been made based on the innings pitched that are in the rules. Believe it or not, this would be a significant change.

3. Let’s see how 2021 plays out. We will know by mid season if this is necessary. There will be plenty of time to figure out rules changes before the 2022 contests are posted.
Many rules were done on the fly in real baseball and our fantasy game last year.
You are vastly selling short on the ingenuity of our players.
50 innings less of an innings minimum would be easy for these great players to adjust.
There were two Main Events last year. The first one was scrapped. Then, a new Sprint Main Event was offered, with new rules, innings limits, etc. I don’t believe anything was done on the fly in that contest.

You’re correct — we could all adjust and play under the lower innings requirement. However, IMO, this is too close to the season to consider a change like that.

Agreed on the discussion. It’s definitely worthwhile to think about positive changes to the game. For now, let me get back to figuring out if Felix Hernandez or Scott Kazmir can recapture some of their former glory :D

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:26 pm

King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:24 pm
DOUGHBOYS wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:05 pm
King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:57 pm


1. Legality of changing rules. Roughly 300 signups for the Main Event thus far, and most of the $2500+ contests are full or almost full.

2. Preparations and planning have been made based on the innings pitched that are in the rules. Believe it or not, this would be a significant change.

3. Let’s see how 2021 plays out. We will know by mid season if this is necessary. There will be plenty of time to figure out rules changes before the 2022 contests are posted.
Many rules were done on the fly in real baseball and our fantasy game last year.
You are vastly selling short on the ingenuity of our players.
50 innings less of an innings minimum would be easy for these great players to adjust.
There were two Main Events last year. The first one was scrapped. Then, a new Sprint Main Event was offered, with new rules, innings limits, etc. I don’t believe anything was done on the fly in that contest.

You’re correct — we could all adjust and play under the lower innings requirement. However, IMO, this is too close to the season to consider a change like that.

Agreed on the discussion. It’s definitely worthwhile to think about positive changes to the game. For now, let me get back to figuring out if Felix Hernandez or Scott Kazmir can recapture some of their former glory :D
Don't forget Bartolo Colon! :lol:
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by COZ » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm

I am vehemently opposed to any change to the Mimimum IP requirement for reasons well articulated by others below. This puts a premium on the traditional “workhorse” SP consistent with the game itself & forces owners to adopt draft strategies & in-season FAAB managment consistent with ensuring one reaches the IP requirement. The way to really attack this issue, which I think is somewhat married to the IP concern raised, but more relevant than changing the IP requirement, is to allow Ps who have not pitched, for whatever reason, M-Th to be substituted for & not be locked until they enter a game. But I recognize this opens a whole new can of worms that I’m sure nobody is ready to deal with this close to draft season but may warrant discussion for next season.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by Wolfpac » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:21 pm

COZ wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm
I am vehemently opposed to any change to the Mimimum IP requirement for reasons well articulated by others below. This puts a premium on the traditional “workhorse” SP consistent with the game itself & forces owners to adopt draft strategies & in-season FAAB managment consistent with ensuring one reaches the IP requirement. The way to really attack this issue, which I think is somewhat married to the IP concern raised, but more relevant than changing the IP requirement, is to allow Ps who have not pitched, for whatever reason, M-Th to be substituted for & not be locked until they enter a game. But I recognize this opens a whole new can of worms that I’m sure nobody is ready to deal with this close to draft season but may warrant discussion for next season.
I agree that no change should be made for this season, some owners in the Main do not even frequently check these boards. While many others have already planned their 2021 strategies.

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by King of Queens » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:23 pm

COZ wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm
allow Ps who have not pitched, for whatever reason, M-Th to be substituted for & not be locked until they enter a game.
I've been asking for this for more than 10 years. It's the all-encompassing solution to our problems.

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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:37 pm

King of Queens wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:23 pm
COZ wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:56 pm
allow Ps who have not pitched, for whatever reason, M-Th to be substituted for & not be locked until they enter a game.
I've been asking for this for more than 10 years. It's the all-encompassing solution to our problems.
I would like this too.
It would really help with a Pitcher missing time with a freak injury or two rainouts or in today's world, a Covid problem.
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Re: Innings Minimum

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:06 pm

One last response about the innings minimum.
I don't want to make the game 'easier'.
It's also not about horses to get to 1,000 innings.
1,000 innings is usually very easy to obtain.
With a 7-2, it'll probably be very easy to obtain this year.
However, it will take away those who liked to have a 6-3 alignment every week.
Devin Williams makes for a great 6-3 target.
Having him instead of a seventh starter is perfectly acceptable.
Now, less practical because a seventh starter will get more than twice the innings of Williams.
Something that had never come into play before this year.

The minimum was made so that our game could not be 'gamed' with more relievers than Starters, while beginning a draft with a plethora of hitting.
Not to be a silent sixth category or tough to exceed.
I believe by shaving 50 innings that it allows more 6-3 lineups for pitchers and gives us safety from Covid problems during the year.
Just my take.

All that said, you guys are the best.
The passion is awesome.
Good job by all.
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