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"An MRI performed Thursday on Myers' right hip indicate he may need potentially season-ending surgery, the Philadelphia Enquirer reports."

It's far beyond coincidence. It's amazing to me that I haven't read more about the hip phenomenon of 2009. It's extremely disappointing that baseball writers everywhere aren't drawing more attention to this.



I understand the dangers of implicating players, the same players you need to maintain a sound working relationship with, ESPECIALLY when you don't have specific evidence other than these crazy hip injuries, but don't these journalists have a responsibility?



I could be wrong, but there is no doubt in my mind that these hip injuries are a direct result of performance enhancing drugs. You'd be hard pressed to see it any other way. As a fantasy player I don't care and only hope all of my players are juiced, have outstanding seasons, and never get caught. As a baseball fan who recognizes the importance of the game's history, tradition, purity, and statistical relevance, this really deeply disturbs me.



If I had millions of dollars at stake, maybe I'd do the same thing but after all of the outrage, testing, and controversy of the past 5 years, these players really have some balls to continue cheating and lying about it. Would anyone be surprised if Selig and co. are helping players fly under the radar? (insert Lance and the conspiracy crowd ) Home runs sell tickets, and MLB did NOTHING for the better part of two decades opting to look the other way and collect record revenues.



Bud Selig needs to be replaced by someone closer resembling Roger Goodell. The wild card was a GREAT idea, interleague play is a unique idea, and he's done a great job growing the sport, especially internationally (Hello Japan!) but with regard to PEDs he has FAILED and continues to fail.



Gene Orza and Donald Fehr have made cleaning things up very difficult, but it's become obvious Selig is not the man to fix this mess.

As a baseball fan who recognizes the importance of the game's history, tradition, purity, and statistical relevance, this really deeply disturbs me.Wow, I need to hear medical evidence that PEDs are related to hip injuries before I jump on this band wagon. As for statistical relevance, has the game ever had it? Homeruns during the deadball era. The amount of population that was available and used by MLB in the thirties vs. now. Technology and modern training techniques. You don't just eliminate steroids and figure it's all a level playing field. It has never been.



[ May 28, 2009, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: bjoak ]

Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:As a baseball fan who recognizes the importance of the game's history, tradition, purity, and statistical relevance, this really deeply disturbs me.Wow, I need to hear medical evidence that PEDs are related to hip injuries before I jump on this band wagon. As for statistical relevance, has the game ever had it? Homeruns during the deadball era. The amount of population that was available and used by MLB in the thirties vs. now. Technology and modern training techniques. You don't just eliminate steroids and figure it's all a level playing field. It has never been. [/QUOTE]Brian, you may be nitpicking here. Exact level playing field? Probably not, but at what other point in history did anyone come close to hitting 70 home runs in a season, let alone multiple players doing it? You don't have to go back to the 30's to see the dramatic differences. You only need to go back less than a decade. Despite different eras, the statistical criteria to determine greatness has remained very consistent throughout modern history until the past 15 years or so in which home run totals have exploded like never before.



How many hip injuries do you need to read about in the same season before something becomes amiss to you? At what other point in history was there ever this many similar and serious hip injuries EVER?

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

quote:Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:As a baseball fan who recognizes the importance of the game's history, tradition, purity, and statistical relevance, this really deeply disturbs me.Wow, I need to hear medical evidence that PEDs are related to hip injuries before I jump on this band wagon. As for statistical relevance, has the game ever had it? Homeruns during the deadball era. The amount of population that was available and used by MLB in the thirties vs. now. Technology and modern training techniques. You don't just eliminate steroids and figure it's all a level playing field. It has never been. [/QUOTE]Brian, you may be nitpicking here. Exact level playing field? Probably not, but at what other point in history did anyone come close to hitting 70 home runs in a season, let alone multiple players doing it? You don't have to go back to the 30's to see the dramatic differences. You only need to go back less than a decade. Despite different eras, the statistical criteria to determine greatness has remained very consistent throughout modern history until the past 15 years or so in which home run totals have exploded like never before.



How many hip injuries do you need to read about in the same season before something becomes amiss to you? At what other point in history was there ever this many similar and serious hip injuries EVER? [/QUOTE]When The Babe was hitting 60, other whole franchises were hitting 60. It would be equivalent to someone hitting 200 Hrs in todays game.



As for statistical relevance- black ball players were not allowed in until Jackie Robinson and that in my opinion had much greater affect on all time statistics.

I predict Jay Bruce threatens Bonds career HR record.

Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by Scott Boras:

quote:Originally posted by bjoak:

quote:As a baseball fan who recognizes the importance of the game's history, tradition, purity, and statistical relevance, this really deeply disturbs me.Wow, I need to hear medical evidence that PEDs are related to hip injuries before I jump on this band wagon. As for statistical relevance, has the game ever had it? Homeruns during the deadball era. The amount of population that was available and used by MLB in the thirties vs. now. Technology and modern training techniques. You don't just eliminate steroids and figure it's all a level playing field. It has never been. [/QUOTE]Brian, you may be nitpicking here. Exact level playing field? Probably not, but at what other point in history did anyone come close to hitting 70 home runs in a season, let alone multiple players doing it? You don't have to go back to the 30's to see the dramatic differences. You only need to go back less than a decade. Despite different eras, the statistical criteria to determine greatness has remained very consistent throughout modern history until the past 15 years or so in which home run totals have exploded like never before.



How many hip injuries do you need to read about in the same season before something becomes amiss to you? At what other point in history was there ever this many similar and serious hip injuries EVER? [/QUOTE]When The Babe was hitting 60, other whole franchises were hitting 60. It would be equivalent to someone hitting 200 Hrs in todays game.



As for statistical relevance- black ball players were not allowed in until Jackie Robinson and that in my opinion had much greater affect on all time statistics. [/QUOTE]Right, then you add on to that the international pool of players and even the population of the US which is much greater now. There is a profound difference in the talent pool.



Even if you discount everything else, let's just say it's only steroids and that only the last 15 years are affected. So what? How do you plan to go back and fix statistical relevance now?



Nate Silver had one of the greatest baseball pieces I've ever seen in Baseball Between the Numbers comparing Bonds and Ruth. It addresses all the areas of statistical relevance in an amazing way. Check that out. But you can't compare flat numbers from two eras. It's not apples to apples.



As for the hip injuries, why weren't they around three years ago? Am I to believe that steroids then and now are that much different? You had the oblique strain that was all the rage 4-5 years ago--now it's becoming passe. Could have to do with different traing techniques or the fact that players are coming back from injuries faster than ever before and some have a cascade effect on the hip. In fact, it could be that new training techniques to prevent the oblique strain are having a negative effect on hips. I'm not a doctor or a trainer and I don't know, but I think when we don't know something and we just shout steroids, it becomes a rather annoying brand of McCarthyism.



[ May 29, 2009, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: bjoak ]

Brian, based on MLB having a far more talented player pool than past generations, wouldn't that include more talented pitchers and more talented defense? Based on a larger population and more talent entering from multiple countries, the numbers themselves should be a wash between years past and now UNLESS there was specifically more hitting talent than pitching talent. Stronger hitters should theoretically be facing stronger pitchers. The best will still be the best, average will be average and so on. In no way should more current talent equate to record home runs by a large margin. Only a dramatic increase in raw strength turning warning track fly balls into 450 foot bombs could account for that. Sure athletes are better conditioned now than they ever were, but not 70 home runs better. Not naturally they're not.



Another theory, many argue the opposite of your argument in that expansion has actually decreased the depth of pitching talent.





Hip injuries weren't around 3 years ago because new substances are being used and injected that are not yet detectable under MLB's drug testing policy. The drugs are way ahead of the testing, and are likely hybrids and creations that haven't existed long enough to know side effects. Do I have absolute convictable proof? Of course not, I'm a lowly fantasy baseball player! Is something rotten in denmark with all of these hip injuries? Absolutely. Is it PEDs? I think so. Just one man's opinion. No need to take offense, Fehr

Actually Manny Ramirez is pretty good proof. He wasn't caught with the steroids, but an after cycle drug on the banned substance list. This is proof enough that other substances are being used OR masking substances are being used. Are these responsible for the barrage of hip injuries? What will you say when Manny needs hip surgery? Still coincidence? Arod and Bonds are already on the guilty list and the hip list. Everyone on the hip list so far is suspect. You don't see Juan Pierre types on there.

There is VERY good money, and an entire branch of science/chemistry dedicated to the duping of drug tests.



Creating an undetectable (or not yet looked for) drug (via masking or outright different strand)has its branch of science.



Creating tests to expose these same new drugs (once they are even detected...are there chemist spies??? ) has its own branch.



The creating will always be a step ahead of the detecting. How can you detect an unknown?



[ May 29, 2009, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

There is VERY good money, and an entire branch of science/chemistry dedicated to the duping of drug tests.



Creating an undetectable (or not yet looked for) drug (via masking or outright different strand)has its branch of science.



Creating tests to expose these same new drugs (once they are even detected...are there chemist spies??? ) has its own branch.



The creating will always be a step ahead of the detecting. How can you detect an unknown? Once they introduced $20M contracts- cheating became inevitable.

Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

There is VERY good money, and an entire branch of science/chemistry dedicated to the duping of drug tests.



Creating an undetectable (or not yet looked for) drug (via masking or outright different strand)has its branch of science.



Creating tests to expose these same new drugs (once they are even detected...are there chemist spies??? ) has its own branch.



The creating will always be a step ahead of the detecting. How can you detect an unknown? Once they introduced $20M contracts- cheating became inevitable. [/QUOTE]Some of the Black Sox were only offered $5,000, some $10,000.

The size of the contracts is of no matter.

Minor league players with virtually no chance of making the majors have been caught.

The leading home run hitter of all time has confessed to using them (without his knowledge, of course ).

It's human nature.

Take our contest.

Lets say our computer can magically adjust some STATS, giving us a better chance of winning, without 389 other players knowing.

Some would jump at the chance.

Some would look at the standings and do it to at least keep up with the best.

Some would rationalize and do it to help them through injuries.

Some would decide against doing it at all.

Of course, anyone who chooses to cheat would know that if caught manipulating STATS, Greg would toss them from the NFBC.

Not just sit out 50 days :rolleyes: My grandsons do their timeouts in a corner , Manny travels the country.

The size of the contracts has somehow become a justification for players doing steroids. I can't buy it. It happens in too many other sports and on too many different levels. Some of which, with no contracts involved at all.

The Marines had an ad a few years ago encouraging young people, "To be the best that you can be".

Some athletes think that enhancements are the way to achieve that goal.



[ May 30, 2009, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

There is VERY good money, and an entire branch of science/chemistry dedicated to the duping of drug tests.



Creating an undetectable (or not yet looked for) drug (via masking or outright different strand)has its branch of science.



Creating tests to expose these same new drugs (once they are even detected...are there chemist spies??? ) has its own branch.



The creating will always be a step ahead of the detecting. How can you detect an unknown? Once they introduced $20M contracts- cheating became inevitable. [/QUOTE]Some of the Black Sox were only offered $5,000, some $10,000.

The size of the contracts is of no matter.

Minor league players with virtually no chance of making the majors have been caught.

The leading home run hitter of all time has confessed to using them (without his knowledge, of course ).

It's human nature.

Take our contest.

Lets say our computer can magically adjust some STATS, giving us a better chance of winning, without 389 other players knowing.

Some would jump at the chance.

Some would look at the standings and do it to at least keep up with the best.

Some would rationalize and do it to help them through injuries.

Some would decide against doing it at all.

Of course, anyone who chooses to cheat would know that if caught manipulating STATS, Greg would toss them from the NFBC.

Not just sit out 50 days :rolleyes: My grandsons do their timeouts in a corner , Manny travels the country.

The size of the contracts has somehow become a justification for players doing steroids. I can't buy it. It happens in too many other sports and on too many different levels. Some of which, with no contracts involved at all.

The Marines had an ad a few years ago encouraging young people, "To be the best that you can be".

Some athletes think that enhancements are the way to achieve that goal. [/QUOTE]I like where you are going with this, Dan. Greg Ambrosius for commissioner!

I was amongst friends last night. We were talking about how soft America has become.

Pitch counts in little league, not being able to say, "Hey batter, batter", not keeping score. Even on that level, it makes me want to hurl.



On the other level, when you see players cheat in a game... and there penalty is to sit out some games, it makes me more sick.

I would much rather see the old west poker rules brought back...

You cheat, you get shot.

Thats a part of Americana we'll never see again!

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

I was amongst friends last night. We were talking about how soft America has become.

Pitch counts in little league, not being able to say, "Hey batter, batter", not keeping score. Even on that level, it makes me want to hurl.



On the other level, when you see players cheat in a game... and there penalty is to sit out some games, it makes me more sick.

I would much rather see the old west poker rules brought back...

You cheat, you get shot.

Thats a part of Americana we'll never see again! Ditto!



I can see it so clearly. The powers that be think they can take the animal out of man...maybe for a while...but not forever.



Lifetime ban from MLB for first offense of specific banned substances would be a good start...but the damn players union wouldn't go for it...even though it's good forthe sport and the record books.

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

I was amongst friends last night. We were talking about how soft America has become.

Pitch counts in little league, not being able to say, "Hey batter, batter", not keeping score. Even on that level, it makes me want to hurl.



On the other level, when you see players cheat in a game... and there penalty is to sit out some games, it makes me more sick.

I would much rather see the old west poker rules brought back...

You cheat, you get shot.

Thats a part of Americana we'll never see again! Ditto!



I can see it so clearly. The powers that be think they can take the animal out of man...maybe for a while...but not forever.



Lifetime ban from MLB for first offense of specific banned substances would be a good start...but the damn players union wouldn't go for it...even though it's good forthe sport and the record books. [/QUOTE]Right.

And this is where the lawyers and politicians come in.

And we're back to where America gets soft again.

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Brian, based on MLB having a far more talented player pool than past generations, wouldn't that include more talented pitchers and more talented defense? Based on a larger population and more talent entering from multiple countries, the numbers themselves should be a wash between years past and now UNLESS there was specifically more hitting talent than pitching talent. Stronger hitters should theoretically be facing stronger pitchers. The best will still be the best, average will be average and so on. In no way should more current talent equate to record home runs by a large margin. Only a dramatic increase in raw strength turning warning track fly balls into 450 foot bombs could account for that. Sure athletes are better conditioned now than they ever were, but not 70 home runs better. Not naturally they're not.



Another theory, many argue the opposite of your argument in that expansion has actually decreased the depth of pitching talent.





Hip injuries weren't around 3 years ago because new substances are being used and injected that are not yet detectable under MLB's drug testing policy. The drugs are way ahead of the testing, and are likely hybrids and creations that haven't existed long enough to know side effects. Do I have absolute convictable proof? Of course not, I'm a lowly fantasy baseball player! Is something rotten in denmark with all of these hip injuries? Absolutely. Is it PEDs? I think so. Just one man's opinion. No need to take offense, Fehr BTW: I have to so add that besides everything else that has gotten better, so has the technology to assess and identify injuries. If anything, that has probably been at the fastest rate of increase. Now at the tweak of a shoulder, poof, everyone gets an MRI. I have to wonder if a fair amount of this is simply the ability to analyze injuries better

The NY Times is listening to us! From the 6/1 edition...



NY Times

Originally posted by Raskol:

The NY Times is listening to us! From the 6/1 edition...



NY Times Nice Find! I didn't walk away swayed one way or another but at least the article touched on several possibilities already discussed on these boards. My personal favorite:



“It’s interesting to see what injuries increase as we come out of the steroid era,” said Stan Conte, the head trainer for the Los Angeles Dodgers."



We all knew previously how much pull the NFBC has. We are reminded every time a team places a player on the DL after the Friday deadline

NY Daily News had them by two days as Bill Madden brought up the subject in his column then they followed up with this in the Sunday Edition.



NY Daily News

Adam Vinatieri - hip surgery. No, we aren't giving the Superbowl rings back...