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The Pirates are 25-28, pretty good, since, you know, they are the Pirates.

Pirates management, even with their respectable 25-28 record, essentially told their fans by trading their best player, Nate McLouth, that they are packing in their season (again).

As a Pirate fan, I would be miffed and asking myself, why am I fan of this organization?



If living in Pittsburgh or the surrounding area, maybe it is a duty to support local businesses?



True, they operate out of Pittsburgh, but I venture to say that most employees are not from around town. There are far better ways to support Pittsburgh and surrounding area than paying for a ticket to watch a team that is only interested in your dollar.



Maybe you're a life long Pirate fan and yearn for the days of Clemente and Stargell again?



Forget it buddy, Clemente and Stargell will be traded now. They'll be traded for prospects, who, if they turn out to be Clemente or Stargell will also be traded.



But I've always rooted for the Pirates through thick and thin!



This is beyond thin. They have become the telemarketing service that bugs you during dinnertime. Remember the GM stock, you bought? You held it out of respect for the past, holding it through thick and thin? It should have been a lesson learned.



Maybe it's the uniforms?



Alright, go ahead, be a Pirates fan.



[ June 05, 2009, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

Couldn't agree more, Dan. Was actually thinking about writing my own post about them and how pathetic their front office is. I'm fine with trading McLouth, but trading him at the beginning of June for three so-so prospects? Why do these guys have jobs? They have no plan (other than to trade anyone who ever becomes valuable) and have been the most uninspiring and boring team in pro sports for more than a decade. Should I ever win the lottery, I might buy the Pirates as ANYONE, myself included, could build a more competetive team than these buffoons. Will they get anything of value for LaRoche? Doubt it.



Also found it incredibly dirty what the Braves did to Glavine. EVERYONE knows Glavine is 43 and a major risk, both injury and performance but that didn't stop the Braves from signing him and handing him the 5th spot in the rotation to start the year. He suffers a setback, rehabs for 2 months and after pitching very well in the minors and on the verge of promotion they dump him and instead of being honest and coming clean that it's strictly financial, they blame it on performance? Pretty sure Glavine is at no more risk for poor performnace now that he's healthy and on a roll than he was when they signed him. I don't think Tom was in line for his 3rd cy young, but crafty leftys have longer shelf lives

than most, and I fully believe that health permitting he would have been an adequate 5th starter and innings eater that would have brought leadership and experience to the club, not to mention fill some seats. He's defied the odds for years, why sign the man, make him rehab, and then dump him once he's ready?



Tommy Hanson is a pretty good answer, but then why sign Glavine in the first place? Poor timing on Atlanta's part and poor decision making all around. They have to make money, save money, and run a business just like everyone else but if a million dollars was so important to them they should have never signed Glavine in the first place. They treated him the same way several years back when he signed with the Mets. He wanted to stay in Atlanta and delayed signing with any other team waiting for an offer from the Braves. After finally coming to terms with the Mets, Atlanta offered him a contract for less years and less money, effectively taking the cowardly approach to say see you later.



Ironically, every team BUT Atlanta in the NL East has a need for his services. I hope he signs with the Mets or Phillies and comes back to haunt the Braves big time.

I think topping out in the mid 70's was a cause for concern. I'm sure the Glavine decision was partly financially motivated. But throwing 6 shutout innings in low A with mid 70's junk, isn't the same as throwing that at the Phillies in Coors Field East.

Sound decision by the Braves.

Roger Penske is purchasing Saturn. Maybe he could buy the Pirates and save them, too. After all, their Triple-A club is in Indianapolis.



[ June 05, 2009, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Roger Penske is purchasing Saturn. Maybe he could buy the Pirates and save them, too. After all, their Triple-A club is in Indianapolis.

The yankees, RedSox, and Braves know the REAL truth.

The Pirates AAA team is in Pittsburgh.

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

I think topping out in the mid 70's was a cause for concern. I'm sure the Glavine decision was partly financially motivated. But throwing 6 shutout innings in low A with mid 70's junk, isn't the same as throwing that at the Phillies in Coors Field East.

Sound decision by the Braves. Where are you getting your infomration? From Buster Olney regarding Glavine's rehab starts: "His fastball was clocked at 83-84 mph, and he touched 86 mph, which means he was throwing with the same velocity that he has for years -- and actually with greater velocity than how he threw in spring training, when his fastball was at 80-81 mph and the Braves thought he was good enough to pencil into their rotation."



I understand not getting excited about A ball success, but I didn't see 70 mph junk anywhere. He can still pitch and even if he can't, he's the same pitcher the Braves signed and gave the 5th spot to. They screwed him.

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

I think topping out in the mid 70's was a cause for concern. I'm sure the Glavine decision was partly financially motivated. But throwing 6 shutout innings in low A with mid 70's junk, isn't the same as throwing that at the Phillies in Coors Field East.

Sound decision by the Braves. Also, Moyer has had a lot of success in "Coors Field East" and I'll take Glavine over Moyer any day.

moyer has perfected that art of pitching. i knew you'd bring him up. as similar as they appear, moyer is more effective at this point in their careers.

i'll trust my sources over buster olney.



glavine only got screwed by a bum wing. he'll eventually get over it.

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

moyer has perfected that art of pitching. i knew you'd bring him up. as similar as they appear, moyer is more effective at this point in their careers.

i'll trust my sources over buster olney.



glavine only got screwed by a bum wing. he'll eventually get over it. Are you serious? You're comparing Moyer's "perfection of the art of pitching" favorably to 305 game winner, 2 time cy young, and surefire first ballot hall of famer Tom Glavine?



You're clearly a Braves fan, and that's fine, but John Smoltz also seems to have an issue with the way Atlanta has been handling things. Do you think he is washed up too? We'll find out very soon.

The Pirates claimed the McLouth trade was strictly a baseball decision. I don't know if this is worse than an admission of a salary dump. Why couldn't they have moved McLouth to RF? It is not as if their RFs are tearing up the league.



McClutchen and Morgan are a good 1-2 punch. McLouth would have added more power in the 3 slot.

i think that at this point, moyer is more effective. and if you look at moyer's numbers, that should tell you i don't think glavine has much left in his tank.

i loved smoltz. huge gamer. he took more guaranteed money. that's cool. if he wants to squawk about he was disrespected, etc, that's his right. i'm sure he'll pitch fine for the bosux in his 10-12 starts.

it's a business. tough decisions have to be made. tom and john were tough decisions. they may not have been popular, but they were made for the betterment of the team.



and btw-it would suck to be a pirates fan. hopefully tabata and young laroche and gorkys and mccutcheon and alvarez do something to win back their fans.

Originally posted by Return of the Aces:

The Pirates claimed the McLouth trade was strictly a baseball decision. I don't know if this is worse than an admission of a salary dump. Why couldn't they have moved McLouth to RF? It is not as if their RFs are tearing up the league.



McClutchen and Morgan are a good 1-2 punch. McLouth would have added more power in the 3 slot. Salary dump? They just signed him to a modest 3 year extension in February! Again, no plan and no clue. Every player can be traded for the right price. What's odd is Pittsburgh trading their best and most recognizable player and getting next to nothing in return. It makes no sense, especially being that they just signed him to an extension less than 4 months ago!

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Ironically, every team BUT Atlanta in the NL East has a need for his services. I hope he signs with the Mets or Phillies and comes back to haunt the Braves big time. I speak for all Met fans- NO THANKS!! The Florida game sticks in our collective memories.

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

i think that at this point, moyer is more effective. and if you look at moyer's numbers, that should tell you i don't think glavine has much left in his tank.

i loved smoltz. huge gamer. he took more guaranteed money. that's cool. if he wants to squawk about he was disrespected, etc, that's his right. i'm sure he'll pitch fine for the bosux in his 10-12 starts.

it's a business. tough decisions have to be made. tom and john were tough decisions. they may not have been popular, but they were made for the betterment of the team.



and btw-it would suck to be a pirates fan. hopefully tabata and young laroche and gorkys and mccutcheon and alvarez do something to win back their fans. Glavine's numbers are misleading. He actually had a very productive season in 07 before getting destroyed in his last 3 starts. Take those starts away and his 07 looks very similar to his 06 which was very respectable.



Last year he pitched well throughout March and April before getting hurt and trying to pitch through it. His overall stats are ugly but were injury related.



I'm not delusional in thinking Glavine is anywhere near the pitcher he once was. His ratios are awful from a fantasy perspective but he knows how to pitch, how to win, and how to get out of the jams he frequently finds himself in.



With optimal health which granted is far from assured, but hypothetically, Glavine could still pitch 200 innings and win 12+ games over a full season which is well worth 1 million dollars to any MLB team with the exception of the Pirates. His E.R.A would likely have been north of 4, and his whip , k, and bb ratios would be ugly, but we're talking about the Braves' 5th rotation spot here, not the NFBC.

Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Ironically, every team BUT Atlanta in the NL East has a need for his services. I hope he signs with the Mets or Phillies and comes back to haunt the Braves big time. I speak for all Met fans- NO THANKS!! The Florida game sticks in our collective memories. [/QUOTE]Tommy won 63 games for you guys in 5 seasons including a 2-1, 1.59 era in 3 starts during the 2006 playoffs. Does he really scare you more than Ollie Perez, Livan Hernandez, and Mike Pelfrey???

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Also found it incredibly dirty what the Braves did to Glavine. EVERYONE knows Glavine is 43 and a major risk, both injury and performance but that didn't stop the Braves from signing him and handing him the 5th spot in the rotation to start the year. He suffers a setback, rehabs for 2 months and after pitching very well in the minors and on the verge of promotion they dump him and instead of being honest and coming clean that it's strictly financial, they blame it on performance?



I don't think Tom was in line for his 3rd cy young, but crafty leftys have longer shelf lives

than most, and I fully believe that health permitting he would have been an adequate 5th starter and innings eater that would have brought leadership and experience to the club, not to mention fill some seats. He's defied the odds for years, why sign the man, make him rehab, and then dump him once he's ready?



Tommy Hanson is a pretty good answer, but then why sign Glavine in the first place? Poor timing on Atlanta's part and poor decision making all around. They have to make money, save money, and run a business just like everyone else but if a million dollars was so important to them they should have never signed Glavine in the first place. They treated him the same way several years back when he signed with the Mets. He wanted to stay in Atlanta and delayed signing with any other team waiting for an offer from the Braves. After finally coming to terms with the Mets, Atlanta offered him a contract for less years and less money, effectively taking the cowardly approach to say see you later.You mean the Braves signed (2/20/09) him when no one else wanted him because of his age, his injury, and his statements he wasn't sure he would pitch again, when they had already gotten Vazquez (12/4/08), Kawakami (1/13/09), and Lowe (1/15/09) to go with Jurrgens, when they sent down Hanson and Reyes after spring training even though they looked as good or better than the 12 IP Glavine threw in order to give the fifth starter job to him, when he proved he couldn't handle the load and got injured, got "fixed" and worked his way back into shape on the Organizations dime?



Bastards.



[ June 05, 2009, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Edwards Kings ]

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

quote:Originally posted by Dub:

quote:Originally posted by Scott Boras:

Ironically, every team BUT Atlanta in the NL East has a need for his services. I hope he signs with the Mets or Phillies and comes back to haunt the Braves big time. I speak for all Met fans- NO THANKS!! The Florida game sticks in our collective memories. [/QUOTE]Tommy won 63 games for you guys in 5 seasons including a 2-1, 1.59 era in 3 starts during the 2006 playoffs. Does he really scare you more than Ollie Perez, Livan Hernandez, and Mike Pelfrey??? [/QUOTE]He scares me just as much. Been there done that. If you are going to give me an old guy, I'll try my luck with Pedro.



Also, you can't put Pelfrey with those guys- He's young going through growing pains. If he stays healthy, he is going to be a solid ML pitcher (Not Glavine in his prime), but a solid 3 or 4 maybe even as good as a 2.

You Braves fans are killing me. I think we all know that Glavine isn't who he once was. I concede. The point was, why did Atlanta sign him in the first place? They gave him a minimal contract devoid of serious risk. If a going away tour was scheduled, why abort it when the player they signed is physically ready to do it?

Because THEY determined he wasn't physically able to perform at a level they wanted/needed. Do you find that so hard to believe?

As a Met fan I am annoyed that they did not make a run at McClouth.

Originally posted by NorCalAtlFan:

Because THEY determined he wasn't physically able to perform at a level they wanted/needed. Do you find that so hard to believe? What I find hard to believe is that his ability has changed between now and his signing. If they felt he was finished, he shouldn't have been signed. It's as though the Braves were banking on him either getting injured or retiring on his own. whoops.



It's hard to feel sorry for a multi-millionaire celebrity athlete, but it sucks to see a hall of famer ready to go out on his terms, and even have a contract to do it, only to have the rug pulled out from under him at the last minute.



I think Glavine's a class act and one of the most under-rated pitchers in history, so excuse me if my bias is a little thick on the matter

Originally posted by Scott Boras:

You Braves fans are killing me. I think we all know that Glavine isn't who he once was. I concede. The point was, why did Atlanta sign him in the first place? They gave him a minimal contract devoid of serious risk. If a going away tour was scheduled, why abort it when the player they signed is physically ready to do it? I understand where you are coming from. The guy is a Hall-of-Famer and I will stand and applaude him everytime he steps on the field.



BUT...are the Braves better with Hanson? Yes. I did not think they would make the move and I would not be surprised if they had to hold Cox down to do it, but I am glad they did.



BUT...is Glavine more marketable now than he was when he was signed in February? Yes. Who paid for that effort? The Braves. It ain't exactly like they pinned a $20 on his lapel and told him "Best of Luck"!



Now a report comes out that the Braves are interested in Penny. That WOULD be disturbing (though I like Penny, I just do not see them stashing him in AAA just in case).

Originally posted by Edwards Kings:

quote:Originally posted by Scott Boras:

You Braves fans are killing me. I think we all know that Glavine isn't who he once was. I concede. The point was, why did Atlanta sign him in the first place? They gave him a minimal contract devoid of serious risk. If a going away tour was scheduled, why abort it when the player they signed is physically ready to do it? I understand where you are coming from. The guy is a Hall-of-Famer and I will stand and applaude him everytime he steps on the field.



BUT...are the Braves better with Hanson? Yes. I did not think they would make the move and I would not be surprised if they had to hold Cox down to do it, but I am glad they did.



BUT...is Glavine more marketable now than he was when he was signed in February? Yes. Who paid for that effort? The Braves. It ain't exactly like they pinned a $20 on his lapel and told him "Best of Luck"!



Now a report comes out that the Braves are interested in Penny. That WOULD be disturbing (though I like Penny, I just do not see them stashing him in AAA just in case). [/QUOTE]If the Braves sign Penny after releasing Glavine, I will have a heart attack! Hanson I can understand. Hudson I can undertstand. Sign Penny and I'll be leading the mob with a pitchfork and a torch.

hey, tommy g got "us" a world series title. as a lifelong braves fan, i am more than thrilled that he will enshrined with a braves hat on. but i'm old enough to know business is business. maybe they signed him for hanson insurance? for pr? but i think they thought he would be able to rehab and be effective. and they ultimately decided that he would be less effective than they desired and here we are. should he be bitter? perhaps. he's a competitor. but at the end of the day, they are going to do what's best for the team.

fair enough. i'll give it a rest, but if the braves get penny (who's an even greater risk than glavine for poor performance or injury)... well, i might recommend frank wren audition for the pirates. he'd fit right in! sorry dan for partially hijacking your thread.