Proposed Auction League Rules Change

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:55 am

The Auction League rules haven't been changed from 2004 yet as we still have the same required positions, same 5x5 categories and same $1,000 FAAB budget. However, if there was one area of concern I heard from the participants about last year it was with the reserve round. Some owners felt six reserves were too many and that there were few in-season pickups available because of that. Some have asked for as few as three or four, while others believe six without an injured list is just right. Some even felt the way we pick reserves is wrong as we pick those orders randomly before the auctions begin.

For now, I'm going to keep six reserves in the AL and NL Auction Leagues and I'd stick with six for Mixed Auction Leagues if we fill those, too. I'll still listen to arguments for and against the six reserves, but right now I'm sticking with that total.

However, I agree that randomly picking the order of the reserve round for the Auction Leagues is counterproductive and time consuming. Since you bid for your starters, why shouldn't you bid for your reserves? Right now I'm proposing that we do that.

I am proposing that we host the live auctions on Friday, March 18th, with each player filling their 23-man (or 24-man in the NL) roster. That will be the end of the live auction. Then the next week we'll allow FAAB bidding and each team will be allowed to fill their six reserve spots using FAAB. We'll break ties (yes, a lot of people will have $1 bids) using a random draft order that was selected before the draft. This will allow everyone the chance to bid on non-drafted players and have an equal shot at getting unsigned free agents (last year it was Ugueth Urbina) and undrafted prospects.

By doing it this way, we'll reduce the time of the auction by more than an hour and we'll give everyone ample time to evaluate the free agent pool. We'll also give everyone a fair shot at those undrafted players and make better use of their FAAB money. Yes, it will take you a while to load all of the free agents you'd like to get on your reserve roster, but that's the one tradeoff for a shorter auction.

I'm looking for feedback from the Auction League members. Basically, we're making the reserve selections after Draft Day and doing them online using our FAAB allocation. Sound good?

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:19 am

So you're saying the money you bid for your 6 man reserve bench will be deducted from your $1,000 of free agent money? Bidding will be the same as regular in season free agent bidding?

What happens if you don't win enough bids to fill your reserve roster? Do you have to have a 6 man reserve roster?

I like the idea. I'm just making sure I understand the procedure.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:51 am

Yes, your in-season FAAB money would be used to fill your reserve roster spots. If you don't fill all six right away, you will be allowed to pick up free agents the next week, which is still the weekend before the season opener. And of course you can always fill those six spots.

I'm just trying to add more strategy into the free agent process and the reserve roster process. We could even limit the reserve pickups to three the first week and three more the following week. Let's keep the discussion going and make this as perfect as we can.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:16 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

By doing it this way, we'll reduce the time of the auction by more than an hour last year, how long did the avg auction last? thanks.

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:18 am

I really like the three one week three the second week idea. It will be easier after you see who you won in the first round of bids to decide what you need in the second round.

This is crucial if you want to balance your reserve roster so that you have a replacement available for most positions. That's one advantage the reserve rounds has over bidding, you could look at your roster and say I need another 2B or pitcher and make sure you draft one. With the free agent bidding you won't really know what your roster will look like till it's over.

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:21 am

Originally posted by Gordon Gekko:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

By doing it this way, we'll reduce the time of the auction by more than an hour last year, how long did the avg auction last? thanks. [/QUOTE]I don't know about last years average but the NL auction took over 6 hours.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:30 am

Ken, I agree. Three and three might make more sense so that you can evaluate what you got with your first three reserve picks. No sense picking up six pitchers when you need a middle infielder somewhere.

I believe both auctions in Las Vegas finished in about six hours, but that included six rounds of the reserve rounds. I believe we can get the actual auctions done in 4 1/2 to 5 hours. If we do that and leave 7 hours inbetween the two auctions, that will leave enough time for those owners who are doing both on Friday to relax and have a good meal inbetween. At least that's the plan.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:08 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Ken, I agree. Three and three might make more sense so that you can evaluate what you got with your first three reserve picks. No sense picking up six pitchers when you need a middle infielder somewhere.

I believe both auctions in Las Vegas finished in about six hours, but that included six rounds of the reserve rounds. I believe we can get the actual auctions done in 4 1/2 to 5 hours. If we do that and leave 7 hours inbetween the two auctions, that will leave enough time for those owners who are doing both on Friday to relax and have a good meal inbetween. At least that's the plan. Reserve rds after the draft sounds like a good idea to save time, but I don't care for the 3/3 over 2 weeks - unnecessary and arbitrary.

I'd prefer all 6 pickups allowed the first time and also allow bidding the following week for those that need to adjust based on roster make-up or whatever else. Splitting it up would require very lengthy conditional bids 2 weeks in a row rather than just 1.

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:25 am

I don't care for the use of FAAB for reserves. To my way of thinking the draft of reserves after an Auction is Classic/Authentic Rotissere. I would think about having an "Online Draft of Reserves" (Use a modified online draft software) and do it at the end of the first week for all six slots,(No FABB that week anyway, Major League Rosters are more setteled, and you've got a week to prepare).

Also, random draw for auction order, then, same order for, "Live", "Online", "Serpentine", Draft, one week later at Regular FABB Deadline with one minute to pick. 12 team leagues equal 72 minute " Online Reserve Draft".

Another element I would like to see added to Auctions is a penalty for not announcing the player you're bringing up within the minute as stipulated. $1 1st offence, $3 2nd, $5 for each further infraction. This should never have to be enforced but puts teeth in the "Time allowed to bring up a player rule."

[ November 11, 2004, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Kevin D ]

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:14 am

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the present system.

I don't like the idea of waiting a week or two as the makeup of the player pool will change with players being traded, getting cut and picked up by the other league or simply just signing. I know the easy thing to do is either lock the pool as it was the day of the auction or set eligibility to be their league affiliation at the time of the bid deadline, but there is just something about the player pool being possibly transient that I don't like.

Someone will get traded or whatever right near the deadline and not everyone will have equal access. Sure, here you can lock the pool a few hours before deadline, but it just seems to me that you are allowing the chance for something to happen that may render the field not level.

An idea I like but others will not because of the time is to increase the $260 budget a little and actually bid on 29 players, making sure you leave the room with a legal lineup. This sort of parallels the main event where you don't have to fill your active 23-man roster with your first 23 picks.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:40 am

Originally posted by ToddZ:

An idea I like but others will not because of the time is to increase the $260 budget a little and actually bid on 29 players, making sure you leave the room with a legal lineup. agree - 100%

ALLACC82 · Post by **ALLACC82** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:36 am

ToddZ's Plan could have possibilities. The reserve list would be made up of lower priced players. $300. Budget idea...?

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:06 pm

The actual budget is all relative--we could do the whole kit and caboodle with $117 if we wanted.

But to keep the prices of the regular 23-actives as close to "book" value as possible, the entire 29-man budget could be $270 or $275.

One drawback is owners that would have left money on the table get the chance to shunt that surplus to the reserves, but there wil still be someone who does not spend everything.

Something that will have to be considered is a player like Urbina this past season should not be eligible for the reserves. The player for bid needs to be affiliated with the AL or NL majors or minors at the time of the auction. This is really no biggie, as now everyone has a fair shot at a valuable closer in FAAB and it is not left to the luck of the draw.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:11 pm

Originally posted by Kevin D:

I don't care for the use of FAAB for reserves. To my way of thinking the draft of reserves after an Auction is Classic/Authentic Rotissere. I would think about having an "Online Draft of Reserves" (Use a modified online draft software) and do it at the end of the first week for all six slots,(No FABB that week anyway, Major League Rosters are more setteled, and you've got a week to prepare).

Also, random draw for auction order, then, same order for, "Live", "Online", "Serpentine", Draft, one week later at Regular FABB Deadline with one minute to pick. 12 team leagues equal 72 minute " Online Reserve Draft".

Another element I would like to see added to Auctions is a penalty for not announcing the player you're bringing up within the minute as stipulated. $1 1st offence, $3 2nd, $5 for each further infraction. This should never have to be enforced but puts teeth in the "Time allowed to bring up a player rule." Kevin D -

Thanks for posting a very contrary opinion right after mine, this should clear up any confusion that you and I are the same person.

Kimo · Post by **Kimo** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:49 pm

Hello everyone. I am new and I haven't yet signed up for the league. But I am sure I will. I might even go for the $5,000 league. Definitely want to do the snake draft. I am also considering a NL auction. But I am not a big fan of doing the reserve draft on a different day. Reason why is because the values of players will change with injuries, trades, being sent down to the minors or up to the majors. I just believe that the draft for your entire team should be completed on the same day. The current system is fine by me. I know it takes a little bit longer to finish up the 6 man reserve draft on the same day. But to me it is worth spending the extra time to finish it all. Looking forward to Vegas. Me and my buddies are going to sign up for the league very soon.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:29 pm

On second thought, the auction is really the most fun part of the experience - do we really want to shorten it. The reserve rounds are kinda like the fourth quarter of a Bears-Packers game in sub-zero slushy weather. Grueling and tiring, but fun and perhaps one way to separate the men from the boys.

After further thought, I'd support keeping it as is.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:26 am

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

On second thought, the auction is really the most fun part of the experience - do we really want to shorten it. The reserve rounds are kinda like the fourth quarter of a Bears-Packers game in sub-zero slushy weather. Grueling and tiring, but fun and perhaps one way to separate the men from the boys.

After further thought, I'd support keeping it as is. Kevin, you're trying to get my attention with that Bears-Packers analogy, right?

One correction on that, when it's sub-zero, there isn't slushy weather. Everything is frozen, so nothing is slushy!

Yes, grueling and tiring, but only fun when we win. As for separating the men from the boys, let's just say that the Packers have won 19 of the last 24 meetings with the Bears, so we know who the men are.

As for the setup for the Auction Leagues, let's keep the ideas coming. I'm not convinced last year's method for the reserve round was the best way to finish an Auction League.

Leaderboard Sports · Post by **Leaderboard Sports** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:19 am

I don't see how bidding on free agents after the auction to fill the reserve spots is unfair or any different than bidding on them at the auction.

No matter what happens to players after the auction (changing teams, injuries etc.) Everyone would still have the same opportunities to bid on all the remaining players and with the same budget. Whether you have $1000 free agent money or $1,015 it's all a money management issue, you spend the bucks now you have less to spend for inseason traded players or callups.

The real unfairness is the randomly selected draft order. There is very little left in a reserve draft, 4 or 5 servicable players maybe and the unlucky guys at the end of the draft are out of luck.

The nice thing about auctions are that you are in total control of what your team looks like, you have to balance your budget but if you want someone bad enough and you bid high enough you can get him regardless of where you sit at the table. That is not true of the reserve round where those sitting in the first pick spots have an advantage over those at the end. When there is lots of avaiable talent the reversing effects of a snake draft can even things out over the entire draft but when there is very limited talent to pick from having an early pick is a definite advantage.

I would prefer to bid on the reserve rosters on line a week later and shorten the auction by an hour but I would not be adverse to bidding on the reserves at the auction with everyone being given an equal amount of reserve auction money say $25. I do not think you should be allowed to carry left over money into the reserve rounds. The least fair way of doing it is the way it is now.

ToddZ · Post by **ToddZ** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:34 am

Hey, how about we use our FAAB to bid on our reserve spot?

Um, never mind.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:05 pm

One of the reasons that I proposed changing the reserve rounds from the draft to some type of bidding system is exactly what Ken Bayes just described. Last year I felt bad that Ugueth Urbina was going to someone in either the AL League or the NL League simply because they were given the first pick in the reserve round. After having a fair bidding system for over 250 players, suddenly picking a name out of a hat was going to land someone a good closer. It didn't make sense and I don't care if LABR or the Founding Fathers felt it made sense.

There has to be a fairer way to allow teams to compile their reserve rosters other than a serpentine draft and I have to believe we have smart enough guys here to agree to that. Remember, sometimes your reserve players are prospects who everyone knows will start the year out at Triple-A, but someone who could be a big help later in the year. Some owners would bid aggressively for those guys, even though they didn't go in the main auction.

Why not use part of your $1,000 FAAB for the reserve rounds? Why not do three rounds at the event and leave three spots open for the next week online, a full week before Opening Day? Just thoughts from me.

I don't mean to interject here because I realize I can be the judge and the jury on this call, but I want this to be fair and yet fairer than what we've all been used to. Auctions deserve the right for every owner to have an equal shot at every player, including those in the reserve rounds. Agree or disagree?

JerseyPaul · Post by **JerseyPaul** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:49 pm

Greg,

I've never done a baseball auction so please read my comments in that light.

I didn't realize that ALL players were not chosen via auction in baseball. It would seem to me that was terribly unfair as "reserve" rosters are not something separate, they are part of a 29 player total roster. Those last few picks are winner makers.

In football we don't have a 10 man roster and 10 man reserve, we have a 20 man roster. In the end position of our NY Football Auction I snagged Brandon Stokely for $1 when everybody was almost tapped out. Huge difference maker for me.

I had to chuckle at your statement indicating that "serpentine" wasn't fair. That's true, we know that, and I think Auctions should be pure.

That all said, I really don't know what I'm talking about. If you do a "Mixed" Auction, I might donate an entry fee to get started. I really do love Auction drafts, I just wish I knew something about baseball.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:51 pm

Originally posted by JerseyPaul:

If you do a "Mixed" Auction, I might donate an entry fee to get started. I really do love Auction drafts, I just wish I knew something about baseball. Get in JP. Mixed league is the best. Thanks.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:56 pm

All players should be selected on auction day. Why is there a need to break the auction into reserve rounds? Start with $280 or $300 or whatever and keep going until each owner has filled out their complete roster. If I don't want to take my 2nd catcher until the "reserve rounds", I should be able to do it. Thanks.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:15 am

JP, I'd be happy to create a Mixed Auction League for New York. I'm not sure we'll have enough interest, but we'll see as 3-4 guys have already said they would compete. Mixed Auction Leagues are certainly easier to run as the player pool is deeper. If everyone agreed, you could create a $270 budget and allow everyone to fill all 29 spots with that budget (basically adding $10 for your six reserve players).

But this whole fantasy baseball craze was started in 1980 by Daniel Okrent, who devised the Rotisserie Baseball rules to force owners to have stars and scrubs, just like the real MLB teams. Thus Rotisserie Baseball was created with AL-only and NL-only leagues in mind. For the extremely serious baseball player, this is the toughest test of your skills because all of those $1 players are the guys who could win the title for you. And yes, the free agent pool is thin, but when a good player surfaces you better get him. I like everything about the Auction League setup for attaining your 23 players, but I just feel the reserve players (who are very important) could be obtained in a similar fashion as the auction.

JP, let's get you in the NFBC main draft as I know you are good at that format. Then enter the Mixed Auction League and let Gordon sit next to you and give you pointers on that format!

I'm sure that alone would be worth the price of admission!

I'm still open to logical suggestions for the reserve rounds from those guys who are competing in the AL and NL-only auction leagues. We'll nail this down soon and if we can't agree together, we'll stick with the current format of six serpentine rounds at the event and improve on that in 2006. Thanks everyone.