Manny and Ortiz

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:20 am

What we already knew was made official today when it was revealed that both Manny & Ortiz tested positive for PED's in 2003....what a shock.

I think the Bosox should return both World Series trophies as they are now illegitimate.

Since the Yankees have had so many positive testers as well, I think they should return their four trophies from the late 90's as well.

The last World Series champion that we can all be assured was legitimate?

I believe we can all agree.....the '86 Mets.

Glenn

Dirt Dogs · Post by **Dirt Dogs** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:46 am

Honestly who cares anymore. Everyone was doing it and in turn signing huge multi million dollar contracts. When the league started testing they stopped (not manny).

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:59 am

The trickling effect of these names is not good for anybody.

NorCalAtlFan · Post by **NorCalAtlFan** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:14 am

Originally posted by Dirt Dogs:

Honestly who cares anymore. Everyone was doing it and in turn signing huge multi million dollar contracts. When the league started testing they stopped (not manny). bosux fan? hmmmmm.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:15 am

Originally posted by Dirt Dogs:

Honestly who cares anymore. Everyone was doing it and in turn signing huge multi million dollar contracts. When the league started testing they stopped (not manny). Let me guess....Red Sox fan maybe?

The truth is I care. It bothers me that the record books are "littered" with names like Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, et.al....those records meant something to me as a kid as I dreamed about a player from my favorite team breaking them. Before these players made the records a bit meaningless, numbers like 500, 61, 30-30 meant something. Now they're jokes.

It bothers me that my 2000 Mets lost in the World Series to a team with numerous cheaters....4 out of the 5 games were decided by one run. Do the Mets have a 3rd world championship if everyone was on level ground?(and no....I don't believe Piazza was a user).

It bothers me that I have a portrait of 500 home run hitters hanging by my bar signed by the legitimate 500 home run hitters prior to PED's like Aaron, Williams, Mays, Mantle, Schmidt, Jackson, Killebrew, McCovey, etc. made obsolete by the watered down achievement of 500 home runs thanks to chemical use.

I guess its because I'm a baseball fan first and a fantasy player second.

I do however agree that they should get all the names out at once and stop with the once a month revelations so we can all get past this.

OK...off my soapbox now....Mets are winning 6-0.

Glenn

NorCalAtlFan · Post by **NorCalAtlFan** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:40 am

I share your sentiments. But Mutts would have lost anyways.

Chameleon · Post by **Chameleon** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:52 am

As I've argued elsewhere on these boards, I'm all for PED's -- everyone on the same playing field, making adult decisions about what to do -- or not do -- to pursue their livlihood, and put in their bodies. Never happen, but there it is.

I can't wait for the day the NFL and college football get exposed for the PED havens that they are, and have been for 20+ years...

Navel Lint · Post by **Navel Lint** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:04 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

The last World Series champion that we can all be assured was legitimate?

I believe we can all agree.....the '86 Mets.

Glenn I would go with the 1908 Cubs

NorCalAtlFan · Post by **NorCalAtlFan** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:06 am

please, you know mordecai brown was on something!!

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:59 am

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

It bothers me that my 2000 Mets lost in the World Series to a team with numerous cheaters....4 out of the 5 games were decided by one run. Do the Mets have a 3rd world championship if everyone was on level ground?I really have no idea who cheated for either the Yankees or the Mets that year. We probably never will.

Your point about losing a world Series because of cheaters had me reminiscing though. In 1919, with all the hoopla about who threw the series and the penalties and such. Nobody ever thought about taking the series win away from the Reds.

Raskol · Post by **Raskol** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:19 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:

It bothers me that my 2000 Mets lost in the World Series to a team with numerous cheaters....4 out of the 5 games were decided by one run. Do the Mets have a 3rd world championship if everyone was on level ground?I really have no idea who cheated for either the Yankees or the Mets that year. We probably never will.

Your point about losing a world Series because of cheaters had me reminiscing though. In 1919, with all the hoopla about who threw the series and the penalties and such. Nobody ever thought about taking the series win away from the Reds. [/QUOTE]Reminiscing about 1919? Only you, Uncle Dan, only you!!

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:13 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by Glenneration X:

It bothers me that my 2000 Mets lost in the World Series to a team with numerous cheaters....4 out of the 5 games were decided by one run. Do the Mets have a 3rd world championship if everyone was on level ground?I really have no idea who cheated for either the Yankees or the Mets that year. We probably never will.

Your point about losing a world Series because of cheaters had me reminiscing though. In 1919, with all the hoopla about who threw the series and the penalties and such. Nobody ever thought about taking the series win away from the Reds. [/QUOTE]Two small corrections Dough.....

1) Its already been proven that Clemens & Pettitte cheated.....(is there any doubt that Clemens throwing the bat at Piazza was roid rage?)

2) The difference between the '18 Reds and the '00 Yanks is that the Reds weren't the ones that cheated....why would their championship be taken away?

On the other hand in regards to my Mets being given their rightful championship.......

Glenn

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:37 am

Like the Mets, the Reds did not earn the series on their own merits.

As far as Pettitte and Clemens that would be 2-0 Yankees.

We don't know how many other Yankees or how many Mets took steroids. Do we even know that they did it during that season? I'm too lazy to look up the timeframe in which Pettitte admitted use and Clemens was accused.

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:36 pm

Wonder how the 2007 Indians feel about the Red Sox edging them out for the Pennant with their two biggest stars on the juice. As a Cleveland fan we will only be left to wonder what if? What if we would have won the World Series that year - as a fan it's bittersweet, because who knows how long it'll be before we get that close again.

Granted - we had our own "suspect" in Hafner - but like Glenn with Piazza - I'll allow myself to believe he was clean until proven otherwise.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:44 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

Wonder how the 2007 Indians feel about the Red Sox edging them out for the Pennant with their two biggest stars on the juice. As a Cleveland fan we will only be left to wonder what if? What if we would have won the World Series that year - as a fan it's bittersweet, because who knows how long it'll be before we get that close again.

Granted - we had our own "suspect" in Hafner - but like Glenn with Piazza - I'll allow myself to believe he was clean until proven otherwise. Sounds like Ryan feels my pain....

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:50 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

Wonder how the 2007 Indians feel about the Red Sox edging them out for the Pennant with their two biggest stars on the juice. As a Cleveland fan we will only be left to wonder what if? What if we would have won the World Series that year - as a fan it's bittersweet, because who knows how long it'll be before we get that close again.

Granted - we had our own "suspect" in Hafner - but like Glenn with Piazza - I'll allow myself to believe he was clean until proven otherwise. How about the Indians best post-season pitcher in 2007?? Paul Byrd Human Growth Hormone. Every team has them guys.

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:51 pm

You bet Glenn - really, just a World Series berth, let alone a Title can do wonders for a mid-market team's bottom line.

Maybe the Indians never trade CC?? Who knows.

Right now I feel gypped.

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Originally posted by Red Sox Nation:

quote:Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

Wonder how the 2007 Indians feel about the Red Sox edging them out for the Pennant with their two biggest stars on the juice. As a Cleveland fan we will only be left to wonder what if? What if we would have won the World Series that year - as a fan it's bittersweet, because who knows how long it'll be before we get that close again.

Granted - we had our own "suspect" in Hafner - but like Glenn with Piazza - I'll allow myself to believe he was clean until proven otherwise. How about the Indians best post-season pitcher in 2007?? Paul Byrd Human Growth Hormone. Every team has them guys. [/QUOTE]Let me correct my statement. The best 2 Indian pitchers in the 2007 post-season are known juicers. Rafael Betancourt and Paul Byrd.

Again every single team has them.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:05 pm

Originally posted by Red Sox Nation:

quote:Originally posted by Red Sox Nation:

quote:Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

Wonder how the 2007 Indians feel about the Red Sox edging them out for the Pennant with their two biggest stars on the juice. As a Cleveland fan we will only be left to wonder what if? What if we would have won the World Series that year - as a fan it's bittersweet, because who knows how long it'll be before we get that close again.

Hmmmm.....Red Sox fans seem awful testy & defensive today.....

Kind of reminds me of the type of responses I'd hear from Patriots fans after Belichekgate.....

"Everyone cheats!!!!"

Wait, what do both these teams have in common?

Glenn

Granted - we had our own "suspect" in Hafner - but like Glenn with Piazza - I'll allow myself to believe he was clean until proven otherwise. How about the Indians best post-season pitcher in 2007?? Paul Byrd Human Growth Hormone. Every team has them guys. [/QUOTE]Let me correct my statement. The best 2 Indian pitchers in the 2007 post-season are known juicers. Rafael Betancourt and Paul Byrd.

Again every single team has them. [/QUOTE]

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:07 pm

Originally posted by Red Sox Nation:

quote:Originally posted by Red Sox Nation:

quote:Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

Wonder how the 2007 Indians feel about the Red Sox edging them out for the Pennant with their two biggest stars on the juice. As a Cleveland fan we will only be left to wonder what if? What if we would have won the World Series that year - as a fan it's bittersweet, because who knows how long it'll be before we get that close again.

Granted - we had our own "suspect" in Hafner - but like Glenn with Piazza - I'll allow myself to believe he was clean until proven otherwise. How about the Indians best post-season pitcher in 2007?? Paul Byrd Human Growth Hormone. Every team has them guys. [/QUOTE]Let me correct my statement. The best 2 Indian pitchers in the 2007 post-season are known juicers. Rafael Betancourt and Paul Byrd.

Again every single team has them. [/QUOTE]Hmmmm.....Red Sox fans seem awful testy & defensive today.....

Kind of reminds me of the type of responses I'd hear from Patriots fans after Belichekgate.....

"Everyone cheats!!!!"

Wait, what do both these teams have in common?

Glenn

Ryan C · Post by **Ryan C** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:25 pm

I don't disagree that every team has their dirty guys - but not many can match the duo of Manny and Ortiz - woner who else from those teams was juicing - Lowell??? Perhaps.

The real point is that David Ortiz is not who we thought he was and neither are those Red Sox teams.

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:29 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Carey:

I don't disagree that every team has their dirty guys - but not many can match the duo of Manny and Ortiz - woner who else from those teams was juicing - Lowell??? Perhaps.

The real point is that David Ortiz is not who we thought he was and neither are those Red Sox teams. Maybe Lowell did? I wonder if Grady, Hafner, CC were juicing too. In particular Betancourt and Byrd were dominant in the 2007 ALCS while Carmona and CC rolled over. Don't blame the PEDS on that loss. Look at your 1-2 duo.

[ July 30, 2009, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Red Sox Nation ]

Red Sox Nation · Post by **Red Sox Nation** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:34 pm

Congrats to Tampa Bay. 2008 World Series Champions!

-JC Romero busted!

headhunters · Post by **headhunters** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:26 am

my question: ortiz was shown at the sox game talking to reporters. he said something like " it has been confirmed i tested for a ped and i have called to find out what it was" no follow up questions were shown. i have heard only about 5 million times that these players were informed in 2003. if that is true- then he knew and has been lying the whole time. did anyone ask that? the other thing that has amazed me- ( i guess naive on my part) is that in 6 years not one single player has ever come out and said they were on the list- not one. ozzie was great yesterday on the subject.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:01 am

Talking at the ballpark last night about that very thing.

My hypothetical was this-

If you are a MLB player and you knowingly are on the 2003 list, would you make it known to the press?

It was overwhelmingly, no. Look at the names that have come out already. Manny, ARod, Clemens, Pettitte, Ortiz, Sosa. These guys are all on the backsides of their careers or retired.

It becomes a "Time Game". If these guys want the public to know that they're on the list they'll want it known as late in their career as possible. Some are already retired while most others are probably close.

In a public life after baseball, the press will be less pirahna-like. While still in the clubhouse, there is no place to hide. For a player to come out and admit he is on the list now, would beg the question, "Why didn't you admit it six years ago?"

The trickling effect isn't fair to the above players. And I did find it ironic that the source for Manny and Ortiz was a New York newspaper.

If the clean players had the balls to go against the steroid superstars and the union and urge that the other 97 names become public, that, would be a terrific first step in getting these names released in full. Instead, it'll go on being a distraction for players, and get more rolled eyes from fans who wish the steroid era to be over and done with.

The thought of Barry Bonds getting into the Hall of Fame makes me want to hurl my pancakes. They'll vote and whatever happens, happens. But, an even worse case scenario is this: With that list now being more than five years old, there is a chance that a lesser player, with the help of steroids, but unknowing to baseball writers be elected to the Hall of Fame. When that happens, the fence will be busted down and the Bonds, Clemens, and others on the list will all probably get in.