Can We Fill An Ultimate Draft and Ultimate Auction League?

[Hard Heads]

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Yeah, I'll wait for an official response, but I'm put off in that you're taking more juice in the Ultimate than you are in the Diamond.



And I did email the fanball contact, Tarra, regarding the football check 6 days ago at Tom's request and have not had any response on that either. KJ the real answer to your question is in Ryans Chat where he answered Greg's question about the Diamond payouts. Part 2 of the answer. And for the record this is not me being a pain in the ass as I am perceived, just passing along what Ryan did say and what KJ may have missed. Nothing more, nothing less, no agenda here as there wasn't yesterday.



[ February 19, 2010, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Hard Heads ]

[FFBL23]

"Glenn Schroter called in from the beaches of Jamaica today to grab one of the last spots in the Auction Championship and the Ultimate Auction, which is obviously good news all around. We now have 14 tentative owners for the NFBC Ultimate Auction League with five weeks to go. We do have two owners listed as tentative, but we've obviously made great strides today and this event is a definite go. Great job all."



Guess we know who Gekko's partner is.....

[Hard Heads]

Originally posted by FFBL23:

"Glenn Schroter called in from the beaches of Jamaica today to grab one of the last spots in the Auction Championship and the Ultimate Auction, which is obviously good news all around. We now have 14 tentative owners for the NFBC Ultimate Auction League with five weeks to go. We do have two owners listed as tentative, but we've obviously made great strides today and this event is a definite go. Great job all."



Guess we know who Gekko's partner is..... touche

[KJ Duke]

Originally posted by Bama:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Greg, with the Diamond perks that the ULT doesn't have, we are paying the NFBC more in absolute dollars to run this league than you are making on the Diamond lge even though the entry fee is half. I don't think that is particularly fair to Ultimate drafters. Can you address this?



If my math is correct:

Diamond

$150,000 entry fees

$140,000 prizes

+ room at Bellagio, limo from airport, VIP stuff

$7,000 juice (appx)



Ultimate

$75,000 entry fees

$65,000 prizes

$10,000 juice



Super

$37,500 entry fees

$32,500 prizes

$5,000 juice



Ultimate is about 40% more juice than the Dimaond with half the entry fee, and 100% more juice than the Super, and I assume the Ultimate has no higher costs than the Supers, correct? This is something that has bothered me since the Diamond was announced. I know alot of us have been dissapointed in the Payout % in the past. Most that i have talked with think something around 90% is fair for the ultimate. Im glad they bumped it up from where it was but with the Diamond at 93.5% and the super at 86% the Ultimate should be somewhere in the middle or there is no incentive for anyone to do them.

There should be a pecking order for all leagues in terms of %'s. the 125"s and 250"s should be on the bottom of %'s and going up from there with more money being paid to enter. This should be common sense but doesnt seem to be along with alot of other things that i have become to dislike about these contests. [/QUOTE]You nailed it Kenny. I'm not one to complain about fees generall because I know Greg has huge financial commitments to put these events on, but there needs to be equity and fairness across product lines. This scheme is bad business.

[Bama]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

Glenn Schroter called in from the beaches of Jamaica today to grab one of the last spots in the Auction Championship and the Ultimate Auction, which is obviously good news all around. We now have 14 tentative owners for the NFBC Ultimate Auction League with five weeks to go. We do have two owners listed as tentative, but we've obviously made great strides today and this event is a definite go. Great job all.



Thanks Glenn, you crazy Jamaica mon!! You're the best.



Here's the current lineup card. Who wants to grab this final spot in the ULTIMATE auction league we offer?:



2010 NFBC ULTIMATE AUCTION LEAGUE

Bellagio Las Vegas

Sunday, March 28, 4 p.m. PST

1. Lindy Hinkelman, Greencreek, Idaho

2. Dave Potts, Auburn, Alabama

3. KJ Duke, San Diego, California

4. David Longood, Salem, Oregon

5. Jason Santucci (tentative, would like Super Auction)

6. Ken Norred, Ashland, Alabama

7. Jim Ferrari, San Diego, California

8. Will Tyrer, Beverly Hills, California

9. James Stanard, Chatham, New Jersey

10. Josh Blumenreich, Phoenix, Arizona

11. Yoni Bornstein, Miami Florida

12. Kevin Kirves, Lexington, Kentucky

13. Glenn Schroter, Whitestone, New York

14. Dave Cushard, Jackson, Michigan (tentative) Mr Haney would fill this League out nicely.

[Bama]

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Bama:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Greg, with the Diamond perks that the ULT doesn't have, we are paying the NFBC more in absolute dollars to run this league than you are making on the Diamond lge even though the entry fee is half. I don't think that is particularly fair to Ultimate drafters. Can you address this?



If my math is correct:

Diamond

$150,000 entry fees

$140,000 prizes

+ room at Bellagio, limo from airport, VIP stuff

$7,000 juice (appx)



Ultimate

$75,000 entry fees

$65,000 prizes

$10,000 juice



Super

$37,500 entry fees

$32,500 prizes

$5,000 juice



Ultimate is about 40% more juice than the Dimaond with half the entry fee, and 100% more juice than the Super, and I assume the Ultimate has no higher costs than the Supers, correct? This is something that has bothered me since the Diamond was announced. I know alot of us have been dissapointed in the Payout % in the past. Most that i have talked with think something around 90% is fair for the ultimate. Im glad they bumped it up from where it was but with the Diamond at 93.5% and the super at 86% the Ultimate should be somewhere in the middle or there is no incentive for anyone to do them.

There should be a pecking order for all leagues in terms of %'s. the 125"s and 250"s should be on the bottom of %'s and going up from there with more money being paid to enter. This should be common sense but doesnt seem to be along with alot of other things that i have become to dislike about these contests. [/QUOTE]You nailed it Kenny. I'm not one to complain about fees generall because I know Greg has huge financial commitments to put these events on, but there needs to be equity and fairness across product lines. This scheme is bad business. [/QUOTE]For next year I would hope they would consider adding 2500 for fourth place for the Ultimate. that would give people an incentive to do the ult over the Super and put the higher stakes leagues in a proper pecking order.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

quote:Originally posted by Bama:

quote:Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Greg, with the Diamond perks that the ULT doesn't have, we are paying the NFBC more in absolute dollars to run this league than you are making on the Diamond lge even though the entry fee is half. I don't think that is particularly fair to Ultimate drafters. Can you address this?



If my math is correct:

Diamond

$150,000 entry fees

$140,000 prizes

+ room at Bellagio, limo from airport, VIP stuff

$7,000 juice (appx)



Ultimate

$75,000 entry fees

$65,000 prizes

$10,000 juice



Super

$37,500 entry fees

$32,500 prizes

$5,000 juice



Ultimate is about 40% more juice than the Dimaond with half the entry fee, and 100% more juice than the Super, and I assume the Ultimate has no higher costs than the Supers, correct? This is something that has bothered me since the Diamond was announced. I know alot of us have been dissapointed in the Payout % in the past. Most that i have talked with think something around 90% is fair for the ultimate. Im glad they bumped it up from where it was but with the Diamond at 93.5% and the super at 86% the Ultimate should be somewhere in the middle or there is no incentive for anyone to do them.

There should be a pecking order for all leagues in terms of %'s. the 125"s and 250"s should be on the bottom of %'s and going up from there with more money being paid to enter. This should be common sense but doesnt seem to be along with alot of other things that i have become to dislike about these contests. [/QUOTE]You nailed it Kenny. I'm not one to complain about fees generall because I know Greg has huge financial commitments to put these events on, but there needs to be equity and fairness across product lines. This scheme is bad business. [/QUOTE]A fair point Kenny. The Supers and Ultimates have had the exact same percentage since we began them in 2005 and nobody ever said they should be switched. But Kenny's point is spot on. We don't want to lose all of our participants to the Super from the Ultimate. We lost them from the Ultimate to the Diamond because of the payouts. So yes, we will sit down and make a case for doing this in tiers.



Fair enough and a fair request. I personally think we are too high with the Diamond payouts, but it's still great for everyone involved. We'll get together and discuss this for football so that we don't lose everyone out of the Ultimate there.



As for fourth place, some folks raised a fair point why we shouldn't pay fourth. But I hear ya and maybe that's the difference maker between the Ultimate & Diamond, and the Super. Good point.



Thanks for giving me a little time to get back to this. Now I have to make a Double Play announcement. All is good.

[Money]

Lets face it, unless you were NFBC involved (in the past) you had no chance at the 93% payout for the diamond league. At this point if you want to do a (high dollar) draft league you're only doing the Super, the Ultimates don't look like they'll fill.



I'm a duck, but just want to compete. doesn't appear I'll get a chance to. It needs to be a equal playing field. I'm looking elsewhere.....

[Bama]

Originally posted by Fast Money:

Lets face it, unless you were NFBC involved (in the past) you had no chance at the 93% payout for the diamond league. At this point if you want to do a (high dollar) draft league you're only doing the Super, the Ultimates don't look like they'll fill.



I'm a duck, but just want to compete. doesn't appear I'll get a chance to. It needs to be a equal playing field. I'm looking elsewhere..... Not sure what league you wanted but the Ultimate auction has ONE spot open looks like.

[Glenneration X]

I believe the Ultimate Auction is Vegas only (like the Diamond).....might not work for Mr. Money.



I was considering upgrading my Super to this Auction until I remembered that fact.



C'mon Greg....make an Ultimate happen Saturday or Sunday night!!!!



Glenn



[ February 19, 2010, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

[Money]

I'm strictly looking for a Diamond or Ultimate DRAFT league. I'm now and I'll get buried in the auction leagues, probably will in the draft leagues as well, but feel I have a better shot.

[King of Queens]

Greg, one correction: the Supers have only been around since 2008. I believe the logic was (and still is) half the entry fee, half the prize pool.

[Money]

I'm strictly looking for a Diamond or Ultimate DRAFT league. I'm now and I'll get buried in the auction leagues, probably will in the draft leagues as well, but feel I have a better shot.

[Money]

Originally posted by Fast Money:

I'm strictly looking for a Diamond or Ultimate DRAFT league. I know I'll get buried in the auction leagues, probably will in the draft leagues as well, but feel I have a better shot.

[KJ Duke]

So what's the verdict Greg - are you going to discuss for baseball or just consider for football, that wasnt clear from the above post.



[ February 19, 2010, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

[Bama]

Kevin,



From Greg's post, "We'll get together and discuss this for football so that we don't lose everyone out of the Ultimate there."



Looks fairly clear if that helps.



[ February 19, 2010, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Bama ]

[KJ Duke]

If the NFBC's plan is to take more actual dollars out of the pot for an Ultimate lge than for the Diamond lge, that is something I want to hear from Greg or Ryan in absolute terms.



I don't like it, I'm getting charged more for a Chevy than a BMW. This isn't about percentages, this is actual dollars. If that's the case I have a decision to make. Greg or Ryan, you're welcome to call me direct if you'd rather, but I want a definitive answer on the baseball prize pool - I'm not concerned about football right now.



If I'm missing something, please set me straight. Thanks.



[ February 19, 2010, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

If the NFBC's plan is to take more actual dollars out of the pot for an Ultimate lge than for the Diamond lge, that is something I want to hear from Greg or Ryan in absolute terms.



I don't like it, I'm getting charged more for a Chevy than a BMW. This isn't about percentages, this is actual dollars. If that's the case I have a decision to make. Greg or Ryan, you're welcome to call me direct if you'd rather, but I want a definitive answer on the baseball prize pool - I'm not concerned about football right now.



If I'm missing something, please set me straight. Thanks.

619.252.7786 Kevin, I just put the kids to bed. Sure, I'll gladly call you anytime about this. I have a family outing tomorrow starting with a daughter going to a solo ensemble at 6 am, but I'll try to call you at some point. Or tell me what works best for you.



There's no dodging this question, just dodging enough time to address this properly. We added $2500 to the prize pool in the Ultimate and $2500 to the prize pool for the Super this year. We went with an even bigger prize pool for the Diamond League. Should we have tiered the three, with less of a payout percentage for the Super? I guess now that you've pointed it out, I suppose so. If anything, I think we should lower the Super next year to make the Ultimate the next tier under the Ultimate. But I can't change the rules or the prizes at this stage.



Again, we've had many talks in the past and I'll gladly talk this through with you. Absolutely no problem talking about this and standing up for the decisions we made to this point. I hear everything you're saying, including the decision you have to make now that we finally have momentum going here. I understand and I look forward to our talk. Talk to you tomorrow or Sunday.

[KJ Duke]

Again Greg, this isn't about percentages. Its about dollars. You're grossing $7k on the Diamond and $10k on the Ultimate. I guess most of the Ultimate guys don't care because they're doing both - but I'm not one of them so I don't feel quite as good about it.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by KJ Duke:

Again Greg, this isn't about percentages. Its about dollars. You're grossing $7k on the Diamond and $10k on the Ultimate. I guess most of the Ultimate guys don't care because they're doing both - but I'm not one of them so I don't feel quite as good about it. Kevin, this isn't a tough question to answer and I'll gladly do that this early morning. It's too early on the West Coast to call you, so I'll post here along with our reasoning for the prices of all three private high-stakes events.



First of all, I think we are paying $140,000 of $150,000 in the Diamond, a 93.3% payout. That's $10,000. We are paying $65,000 of $75,000 in the Diamond, an 86.7% payout in the Ultimate and the exact same percentage in the Super. I'm not sure where you're getting the $7,000 figure for the Diamond.



Anyway, when Ryan first devised the idea for the Diamond League he obviously wanted to make a big splash for the players and thus came up with the 93.3% payout. We felt we could do that if we asked all players to pay for this league by check. If we ran credit cards for this it would be a $4500 expense based on $150,000 in charges. So that was key to making this payout work and all 15 people agreed to do that this week.



We have never asked for folks to pay via check for the Super or Ultimate Leagues because normally this is an addition to their other live event leagues, like the main event. So when budgeting the Ultimate League, we need to budget a 3% credit card fee. On $75,000, that's an expense of $2250 that nobody ever thinks about. For the Super League, $1100+ goes right to the credit card companies of the $5,000 take.



I know folks don't consider our credit card fees when looking at our "take", but last year we had $42,000+ in cc fees just for baseball. Obviously we are budgeting even more than that for baseball, even with the Fantasy Sports Insurance policy. It's right now one of our biggest expenses of this event.



So again, I think Diamond and Ultimate are similar and when the credit card fees are taken in we aren't making more with the Ultimate League. And remember, I had to budget for the possibility that one owner may actually drink 24 beers at $7 a pop during this auction like what happened last year!!



I think people know there is more of a profit for us with this one league at all three levels than "normal" live drafts, but there is a guarantee that we will pay the prizes, that we are working hard to get payments from everyone and that we will provide a fantastic draft/auction experience. I know everyone wants us to make 6.5% before expenses on every league we run, but it's just not feasible to do that and stay in business because the expenses just add up on everything we do.



I hope that helps. Correct me if I'm wrong on the numbers.



As for this area of our business, I feel proud that we raised the bar on all three levels. The first thing Ryan did when he looked at this P&L was to say that we were making too much on the Ultimate and Super. He raised the prizes by $2500 in the Ultimate League and $1250 in the Super League, against objections from Tom and I. He was right; it was the right move. However, now that you have brought this up, I think we should leave the Ultimate where it is and lower the Super prizes. You've convinced me that we need tiers at all three levels and we'll discuss that for football 2010.



We love the Diamond concept and Ryan has said that we will do $10K with similar payouts in football, along with $25K if demand is there, $5K and $2500. We want to grow this area of the market, while making this a unique drafting experience at the Bellagio.



I hope this helps. Again, let's talk on the phone as well. I always value your input. Have a good weekend. I'm already up waaaaaaaay too early for a Saturday.

[Glenneration X]

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

However, now that you have brought this up, I think we should leave the Ultimate where it is and lower the Super prizes. One vote against for that course of action.



Greg, if credit card fees are the issue, make all the high stakes private leagues payable by check only. They are the premium leagues after all. Return the savings to the players and everyone will be happy. Lowering payout percentages is definitely not the way to go.



PS....Please let us know if the time change options for the Ultimate are still being considered.

[Greg Ambrosius]

Originally posted by Glenneration X:

quote:Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

However, now that you have brought this up, I think we should leave the Ultimate where it is and lower the Super prizes. One vote against for that course of action.



Greg, if credit card fees are the issue, make all the high stakes private leagues payable by check only. They are the premium leagues after all. Return the savings to the players and everyone will be happy. Lowering payout percentages is definitely not the way to go.



PS....Please let us know if the time change options for the Ultimate are still being considered. [/QUOTE]Tiering the three levels was a suggestion made by our owners and I understand how that would help make the Ultimate special and separate it from the Super. I concur with that reasoning, although Super owners wouldn't agree.



Credit card fees are a big part of this. Heck, I started this payment by cc, so blame me. WCOFF had everyone pay by check for the first 4-5 years. I introduced the cc payment back in 2004 when our company's fees were smaller than they are now. Paying by check is one option we may have to consider, but convenience is important as well.



I think this thread has changed from finding a suitable time for the Ultimate Draft League. Let's get back to that goal. I'm all for it if there are still enough interested owners in that format.

[King of Queens]

I believe Kevin is mistakenly assigning a $3,000 value to the "VIP perks". KJ, those extras are only available as part of the Black Diamond Package -- a slate of 4 leagues (Diamond, main, auction, DP) that carries a retail price of over $12,500. Similar to the 2-Main Event Package, the 2-Double Play Package, the 3-Online Championship Package, etc., certain packages carry discounts and savings. In any event, I would venture to say that only a handful of people qualified for the Black Diamond package, so the $3,000 figure is certainly overstated.



I'd also like to add that as a player, I'm always interested in leagues that carry a higher-than-average payout percentage. With that said, what would make people happy for the Ultimate? An extra $2,500 allotted to 4th place? As a friend of mine would say, coming in 4th and getting half your money is like getting a hand job. Play to win folks!

[Glenneration X]

KOQ....personally I'd like to see the extra payout added to first place or a split between first & second.

I'm already wary about gimmick drafters in a private league. I think adding a 4th place would just further encourage the possibility.



Greg....without a doubt, asking for check payments for premium leagues is the way to go. It didn't hurt the Diamond League, did it? For other leagues, you even received check payments from drafters just by offering an inurance policy gimmick. Now instead of that, offer the couple grand in credit card fees back into the events as payouts.....think the players benefitting from those add'l payouts would be complaining about a lack of convenience? This to me is a no-brainer.



As far as getting the Ultimate going, my vote is to hold it either Saturday or Sunday night.

Either way, I'll upgrade if the Ultimate fills.



Glenn

[Gekko]

Originally posted by King of Queens:

An extra $2,500 allotted to 4th place? As a friend of mine would say, coming in 4th and getting half your money is like getting a hand job. Play to win folks! paying out 4th place is asking for alternate strategy approaches.