NFBC Message Boards

When bad franchises make bad moves, the GM is hardly ever fired. For some reason, the poop rolls downhill and always gets the Manager first.

Such was the case with the Royals this year.



Dayton Moore has done little correctly in his term as the Royals GM, yet retains his job. At one point the Royals had the leading team in the league in terms of average, yet near the bottom in power and scoring runs. Sounds like nine Jason Kendall's.



The last straw for me with this franchise was today's lineup. I'll let you in on the joke. 21 home runs in their whole lineup today.

Billy Butler, the DH on the bench has almost as many home runs (10) as all the Royals on the field (11). Ka'AAAA'he, their 1b had more hr's at AAA (24). This lineup is BEFORE the September call-up 40 man roster. Scary.



I know times have changed.

I know that franchises like Kansas City and Pittsburgh are more than happy to make money with losing teams.

Royal ownership should at least throw their fans a bone and get a GM who can think outside the box with a limited budget.

Otherwise, those fans will be doomed to seeing lineups like the Royals put out there today.

you want runs? just watch those rockies today. kc should have flown the team to denver and let them hit against those pitchers.

Omaha vs. Colorado Springs

Originally posted by headhunters:

you want runs? just watch those rockies today. kc should have flown the team to denver and let them hit against those pitchers. And yet, the Rockies and Royals win...

What a game baseball is...

The Royals and Pirates should simply cease to exist. Year after year after year of losing teams and bad players. MLB needs to get rid of some teams to make the product better (yeah, I know that isn't happening, thank you players union).



I advised people, somewhere on these boards, to bet the mortgage on both of these joke teams winning less games than their over/under. Believe the over/under # on both was 71 but I could be wrong. Royals could get to 71 but would need a late season surge to do it, and the Pirates are obviously not going to make it. I should have taken my own advice!

They had some guys given off days obviously. And one has to judge Dayton by what happens in 2012-2014. Ridiculous to judge him now. His waive of players is coming. The future is coming. If he ends up blowing it with these young guys, you can judge him, but way to early to do so now.

Originally posted by TOXIC ASSETS:

The Royals and Pirates should simply cease to exist. Year after year after year of losing teams and bad players. MLB needs to get rid of some teams to make the product better. I can't speak to the Royals, but the Pirates are not going anywhere as long as they continue to make the millions they are making for their owners.



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5484947

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

They had some guys given off days obviously. And one has to judge Dayton by what happens in 2012-2014. Ridiculous to judge him now. His waive of players is coming. The future is coming. If he ends up blowing it with these young guys, you can judge him, but way to early to do so now. You have got to be freaking kidding me. You give him a pass on Meche, Kendall, Betancourt, Guillen, just to name a few. Tell me in a salary dump one solid big leaguer he has picked up in exchange. Even the drafts are terrible relative to the spots they picked. If you factor in how close he came to dealing Greinke for a package headed by Francouer in the spring of 09 then you really begin scratching your head.

Originally posted by Chest Rockwell:

quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

They had some guys given off days obviously. And one has to judge Dayton by what happens in 2012-2014. Ridiculous to judge him now. His waive of players is coming. The future is coming. If he ends up blowing it with these young guys, you can judge him, but way to early to do so now. You have got to be freaking kidding me. You give him a pass on Meche, Kendall, Betancourt, Guillen, just to name a few. Tell me in a salary dump one solid big leaguer he has picked up in exchange. Even the drafts are terrible relative to the spots they picked. If you factor in how close he came to dealing Greinke for a package headed by Francouer in the spring of 09 then you really begin scratching your head. [/QUOTE]No not free passes. He could have done much much better in winning more games than they have. And everything you stated is correct. But the bottom line is what happens when the plan comes together down the road since they weren;t going anywhere anyway. That is where your thoughts and mine seem to differ drastically. Nor do I judge something that was close to being done though. In rereading my post, ridicuous a bit too strong a word there to use however. Not ridiculous for those that don't follow them to think he is doing a horrible job and it may well turn out to be the case that he is.



[ August 26, 2010, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Cocktails and Dreams ]

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

They had some guys given off days obviously. And one has to judge Dayton by what happens in 2012-2014. Ridiculous to judge him now. His waive of players is coming. The future is coming. If he ends up blowing it with these young guys, you can judge him, but way to early to do so now. This could be the reason Managers are fired before GM's. GM's can always say the future is coming while the Manager doesn't have that luxury.

The Manager has to make a lineup with Kendall, Betancourt, Ankiel, Getz, etc, while the GM expounds on the future to the owner.



Farnsworth, Kendall, Ankiel, Betancourt, Fields, um, I don't think it is too early to judge.



The trouble with banking on the future is that sore arms and other injuries hinder the once rosy outlook. It is great to have a good system and know that help could be on the way. At the same time, building a franchise, without the thought that they are a 'loser franchise' is paramount. The Royals have that tag and Moore has done little to shake it. In fact, if anything, he has expanded it.

dayton moore is awful. he trots out the " i was with the braves" card, and says " give me 10 years and i will turn things around". 2 things- what, exactly, did he do while with the braves and -10 years? are you kidding me? geez.

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

Ridiculous to judge him now. you can judge him, but way to early to do so now. Four years is way too early?

Damn, we sort of hope for a President to turn things for the better in four years. But it is folly to expect the same out of a General Manager in baseball?



The guy has not put an extra fanny in the seat. He has not built any excitement in Kansas City. He has not made a deal that has benefitted the Royals.

After these four years, would you want your favorite team to hire him?

KC and Pitt. Have to build through the draft. That takes 5 to 6 years and that is why they are not fired.



KC may have the best farm system in baseball.



Pitt. may have helped themselves more then any other club in baseball with a great draft, and international signing this season. All high ceiling impact type player's.



The GM's that should be fired at this point is the Cubs Jim Hendry and the Mets Omar Minaya.

They are my favorite team and I am comfortable with what he has done as I believe the future is much brighter due to what he has done. Because I believe in the young guys on the way, I want Dayton running my club. If this new waive doesn't work out then time to reconsider. I wouldn't expect most to know what the farm system looks like now compared to when he took over. I do know these things though since they are my team. Cannot completely judge a book by its cover. And really easy to pick on Dayton when they traded half their lineup away in deadline deals. Ofcourse the lineup is not going to look pretty. And especially when you pick a day when two of better hitters out of lineup.

Originally posted by LONG GONE:

KC and Pitt. Have to build through the draft. That takes 5 to 6 years and that is why they are not fired.



KC may have the best farm system in baseball.



Pitt. may have helped themselves more then any other club in baseball with a great draft, and international signing this season. All high ceiling impact type player's.



The GM's that should be fired at this point is the Cubs Jim Hendry and the Mets Omar Minaya. This guy clearly gets it. Good post.

cocktails- i think you are correct on the farm system- but- why not hire a real gm and hire dayton to run the farm system? the payroll is 80 freakin' million bucks. what is tampas? the royals have 2 1/2 major league ballplayers. tampa has about 20. hey- i feel for you if you like the royals and i hope they get better. i also hope old dayton finds it in his heart to draft/ develope 1 or 2 good hispanic or african american ballplayers. he seem to draftt 6'3 230 white guys in droves.

A good idea in theory. But Dayton probably wouldn't take the demotion.



One thing that did baffle me was letting Olivo and Buck go for a horrible Kendall. He needs to execute the matching parts to go with the young guys a whole lot better or it won't work. Hopefully he is learning from some mistakes, and as Doughboys pointed out, there have been plenty regarding the big league club.

Originally posted by LONG GONE:

KC and Pitt. Have to build through the draft. That takes 5 to 6 years and that is why they are not fired.



KC may have the best farm system in baseball.



Pitt. may have helped themselves more then any other club in baseball with a great draft, and international signing this season. All high ceiling impact type player's.



The GM's that should be fired at this point is the Cubs Jim Hendry and the Mets Omar Minaya. I get this. Really, I do. I also agree with Minaya and Hendry.



Here is my point. Moore has shown the same thing that he had shown with the Braves. His expertise is in scouting.

Why should he be the GM?

He has done nothing with his on field team to distinguish him from predecessors.

He has not lost the loser image.

The players of consequence that he does have, have already hinted about leaving when they can (Butler, Soria, and Greinke)

Even if they get a couple of kids that work out, they'll be starting from scratch (again)



Finally, why does he have to be the decision maker while the kids play themselves through the system? He has done his part in the scouting process. Does his presence at the GM level, make the kids already signed, better?



I agree with headhunters. He is a scout in a GM position. Kansas City will never shed the losers image with him making the decisions.

dayton? moore? GM's? i couldn't name one GM for any team. i also couldn't name about 15 managers. and i like it that way!!

Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

quote:Originally posted by LONG GONE:

KC and Pitt. Have to build through the draft. That takes 5 to 6 years and that is why they are not fired.



KC may have the best farm system in baseball.



Pitt. may have helped themselves more then any other club in baseball with a great draft, and international signing this season. All high ceiling impact type player's.



The GM's that should be fired at this point is the Cubs Jim Hendry and the Mets Omar Minaya. This guy clearly gets it. Good post. [/QUOTE]You clearly do not. It takes both building a system and making good moves at the major league level. Signing some of the worst players at their positions to multi year contracts is just stupid.

Originally posted by Chest Rockwell:

quote:Originally posted by Cocktails and Dreams:

quote:Originally posted by LONG GONE:

KC and Pitt. Have to build through the draft. That takes 5 to 6 years and that is why they are not fired.



KC may have the best farm system in baseball.



Pitt. may have helped themselves more then any other club in baseball with a great draft, and international signing this season. All high ceiling impact type player's.



The GM's that should be fired at this point is the Cubs Jim Hendry and the Mets Omar Minaya. This guy clearly gets it. Good post. [/QUOTE]You clearly do not. It takes both building a system and making good moves at the major league level. Signing some of the worst players at their positions to multi year contracts is just stupid. [/QUOTE]Actually I do get it. And I also said some moves were stupid if you know how to read. But obviously you don't have a clue what their farm system was like when he took over and what it is like now. If you did, you would understand my point. Not all that complicated really. Royals were going nowhere the last few years, so restocking the farm system was far more important than some bad big league decisionmaking for the long term potential of the franchise. Again not complicated, and it is clear you are the one that doesn't get it.

This was last years post on on some other clubs including KC.





DOUGHBOYS

Member # 345 posted November 10, 2009 05:58 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe it's just me, I believe that the firing of managers usually comes a year too late, while the firing of GM's comes three years too late.

It is true in Towers case.

GM's in Kansas City, Cleveland, Toronto, Houston, and Cincinnati have are in the same boat. These franchises all have little hope of competing next year or for the foreseeable future.

When I saw the Towers headline I had to laugh. Maybe the news last week that Towers wouldn't mind seeing Milton Bradley again in a Padres uniform was the last straw.

Directly, or indirectly, Milton Bradley spreads his love all over the baseball world.



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 10:23 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kevin Towers of San Diego and JP of Toronto should be fired. They have had plenty of time in there current roles with mediocre to bad results.



Dayton Moore of Kansas City and Walt Jocktty of Cincinnati are fairly new to there current team. They deserve more time. Most GM's I think deserve a 5 to 6 year window, before making big judgments about them.



Ed Wade of Houston needs some direction to rebuild. What we don't now is if the owner is making some,all, or none of GM's decisions. I assume Ed Wade works for a crazy owner and has a harder time putting his blueprint together.



Mark Shapiro of Clevland isn't going anywhere. He is a well respected and good GM. When the owner or organization tells you to dump salary because we are going to lose 40 to 50 million,you do it.



We need to guess at what goes on behind the scenes that has nothing to do with baseball, but the business of baseball.



DOUGHBOYS

Member # 345 posted November 10, 2009 10:46 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by LONG GONE:

Mark Shapiro of Clevland isn't going anywhere. He is a well respected and good GM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Shapiro is well respected,but I don't agree that he has done a good job the last couple of years. His rotation, even with Lee was laughable going into the year. Next year, it looks to be even worse.

Shapiro will get a pass for awhile as all "well respected" GM's do. He has built a great system with young players, his forte, but as far as putting that young product on the field at the major league level and getting anything close to a contending pitching staff, he has failed miserably.



[ October 03, 2009, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 10:57 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shapiro knew his staffed sucked coming into the season and knows it sucks next year. Big Deal, Why does that make him a bad GM? He just was forced to trade CC and Lee. He has to have a few years for the next cycle. Thats what small markets do!!!!!



DOUGHBOYS

Member # 345 posted November 10, 2009 11:22 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We'll have to agree to disagree. It IS a big deal when you give your team no chance to win. With no viable starters that can win a lot of games, Cleveland falls to KC status rather than rising to Twins status.

The attitude that it is ok to be without a staff because of the smaller market is crazy. Other small market teams have staffs and have lost aces along the way.

Kevin Towers was once well respected as well, that wears thin when you give your team no chance to win.



Vander

Member # 496 posted November 10, 2009 11:44 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I used to think Towers was ok, but he's been in that ball park for several years now and seems to refuse to build his team around what he has. Why not speedy outfielders and solid starting pitching? A STL of the 70's and 80's type of team. He hasn't even tried to put this type of team together and it seems a no brainer to me. Fired he deserves and as for JP should've been fired a long time ago. Lots of poor gm's. How do these guys get their jobs anyway? Much less how do they keep them.



KJ Duke

Member # 17 posted November 10, 2009 12:05 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Vander:

I used to think Towers was ok, but he's been in that ball park for several years now and seems to refuse to build his team around what he has. Why not speedy outfielders and solid starting pitching? A STL of the 70's and 80's type of team. He hasn't even tried to put this type of team together and it seems a no brainer to me. Fired he deserves and as for JP should've been fired a long time ago. Lots of poor gm's. How do these guys get their jobs anyway? Much less how do they keep them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would've fired him the moment he decided to re-sign Brian Giles.



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 12:40 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take any of the clubs from above. Some are easier then others. You are the new GM. Tell me how and when you will make me a .500 ball club, division tittle winner and world championship caliber. All 3 are major difference's in qulity. Oh stay within budget.





Good Luck 007



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 12:42 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have great ideas for KC. Will post next week.



Vander

Member # 496 posted November 10, 2009 01:06 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any time you take over a mess it will take time to fix. Without the Yankees budget, you will need to build from within and if your minors are barren it will take longer. It can be done, even with a low budget. The harder thing to do is keep it going and be competitive year after year. In some cases, I believe Pittsburgh is one, I've heard gm's not using their high draft picks to pick the guys they should, but taking low first round guys with the first or second overall pick cause they are easier and cheaper to sign. Hence the perpetual crap they put on the field. I think Moore deserves more time in KC. He inherited a mess and nobody could have fixed that in a hurry. All of his moves haven't worked, but I believe he's on the right track. Not a whole lot to work with.



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 01:56 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Most clubs need to reduce payroll down to the lowest level possible.

2. Free agents should only be purchesed for 2 reasons.

A. Because they are under valued.

B. Because you have a window to win the division or have a chance at championship caliber.(not because you have a budget with excess)its like the Gov.



1.To get to .500 can be done hitting or piching combinations.

2. Winning a division will require some top of the rotation talent.

3.Championship caliber will require for me 2 of the top 10 pitchers and a 3rd pitcher that will come from the next group of 15 to 20 pitchers. Your 4 should be like small markets open day starter. Spent so much on pitching your 5th guy should always be a player from within that you are paying nothing for and are trying to groom.



This would be my outline or motivation for doing something.



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 02:19 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KC



1. Based upon the outline from above I would reduce payroll buy tradding for the highest quality talent avalable.



2. Zack does meet my standards as a championship calibor pitcher. Unfortunitly we can't even compete for the division with him. He is the one chip worth the mother load and should be tradded to a championship ball club for only future championship players. If Red Sox would consider:

1.Clay Bucholtz

2.Daniel Bard

3.Casey Kelly

4. player that has a chance as a starting outfielder or 4th or 5th outfielder that you pay only the minnium for.



A.This reduce payroll and allows me to build around Clay Bucholtz posibly a championship starting pitcher down the road.



B.It gives me a championship closer In Daniel Bard that I pay little money to.



C.Casey Kelly former 1st round pick that is one of the top pitching prospects in the low minors.



D. Trying to save money with adding to my outfield depth.



No Bucholtz and Bard no deal.



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 02:31 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2nd Step:



With Bard closing Soria would be tradded.Soria is a championship type player that would be given a good return. Maybe to the Phillies for

A. Outfielder Taylor or Kyle Drabek only will have a chance for 1.



Maybe Tampa for:

D. Jennings outfielder

Davis and Hellickson starting pitching Mid tear pitching. I could go for any of these players.ALL CHEAP



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 02:36 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would consider moving Gil Meche to the Brewers for JJ Hardy and Cory Hart if they would consider.

Meche must be moved for something not nothing.





That would be my start. .500 or better in 2 to 3 years.



DOUGHBOYS

Member # 345 posted November 10, 2009 04:24 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by LONG GONE:



2. Winning a division will require some top of the rotation talent.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wrong.

Colorado has achieved either a wild card or division winner with really no top shelf pitchers. Marquis and Hammell overachieved, Jimenez and DeLaRosa may go on to star or fizzle next year, while Cook was Cook.

But they all gave their team, a good defensive team, which was not mentioned, a chance to win everyday. And THAT is what you want out of a lower budget team.



LONG GONE

Member # 393 posted November 10, 2009 07:43 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jimenez is a top talent pitcher. Will be a top 30 starting pitcher taken in the NFBC next season.



DOUGHBOYS

Member # 345 posted November 10, 2009 09:32 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by LONG GONE:

Jimenez is a top talent pitcher. Will be a top 30 starting pitcher taken in the NFBC next season.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



We disagree on this as well.



Cowboy Joe

Member # 14211 posted November 11, 2009 06:21 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After the 2001 fiasco, I was never a Dan O'Dowd fan. I thought Rockies management gave him every chance in the world (too many chances in my opinion) to succeed.



I was wrong. To his credit, O'Dowd's done a great job of learning and improving. His performance this season was masterful getting Street and CarGo for Holliday & trading little away to get Marquis and Hamels. Heck even Contreras has helped.



The Rox are now almost entirely home grown in the position player category and they've succeeded with smart, relatively small dollar investments in pitching.



Given their defense and Bob Apodaca's magic touch, will FA pitchers change their view on coming to Colorado?



DOUGHBOYS

Member # 345 posted November 11, 2009 06:36 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. I haven't been a fan of O'Dowd's either.

Although it wasn't a perfect season for O'Dowd, he should have traded Atkins during the last off season, but held out for too much.

The moves he did make have been gold this year and now they have enough outfield depth for him to trade Hawpe over the off season.

Marquis was a key acquisition, while the youngsters have flourished. Defensively, they have probably been the best team in baseball over the last four months.

I know he has no chance of winning with King Albert's year, but Tulowitzki really should get a lot of recognition for MVP.

give any team long enough and they are bound to have a good season or two.

Most bad teams have good farm systems. They get these by getting high picks and making deadline trades for more prospects. It's great to see a light at the end of the tunnel. But in some cases. like the Royals, it's an endless tunnel.



An organization cannot maintain a good level of play without leadership on the field and in the offices.

The Royals have no marquee player.

Really, they have no bona fide star. Sure, Greinke is one year removed from a great season and Soria has been consistently good, but nobody that the average baseball fan would consider a great player.





Moore is on the wrong track. Placating current fans with the likes of Kendall, Betancourt, Guillen, etc while not looking down the road to get semi-veterans to nurture the kids that are coming up. The Twins did/do this very well, even before increasing salary with the new ball park.

Moore is betting everything on the come of the kids. It's not a very good bet.



Once the kids are here, more than likely, the core of Greinke, Soria, and Butler will be gone. And, more than likely, some of the kids will be hurt or be AAAA players.

It's a carousel to Loserville and Moore is the Mayor.

Rather simplistic look at it for a pretty smart guy. In the gambling world it is called a "square" view. They are the Royals, they can not possibly ever be good. And writing off the massive upgrade in the farm system as no big deal is not the brightest viewpoint either in my opinion.



Also the monumental debacle that Dayton took over is something nobody conveniently mentions as it would hinder this very simplistic though process they are using.