We've seen posts where we compare some great fantasy years from players. Larry Walker's great year comes to mind. What if we took that to another level and used career performances.
Let's say that we get to draft each player great as a keeper over his career.
For example, when taking Babe Ruth, you would get his pitching stats while pitching and hitting stats while playing a position. Lessening his value a touch, but not much.
Do you draft the ultimate Judy in Ty Cobb?
Positionality of Rogers Hornsby?
I thought this list would somewhat mirror the All Time Greatest Players list. I was wrong to a degree. Willie Mays drops down because now we're going with a more raw numbers approach and defense is not in play.
Like the fantasy game we play now, I didn't think any pitchers should go in my first round, but The W's from Cy Young is too hard to resist.
Speed/Power keeps the modern day element more in play. Guys like Honus Wagner, Cobb, and Eddie Collins are mere Judys, great Judys, but Judys just the same.
Here is my first round:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Babe Ruth
3. Hank Aaron
4. Willie Mays
5. Rickey Henderson
6. Cy Young
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Alex Rodriquez
9. Ted Williams
10.Jimmy Foxx
11.Albert Pujols
12.Frank Robinson
13.Ken Griffey Jr.
14.Vladimir Guerrero
15.Reggie Jackson
I know other lists will vary and I welcome that. I thought this would be a good topic for discussion. In doing some research, I was surprised by some of the names that would probably go in the first 10 rounds.
Guys like Steve Finley, Cesar Cedeno, Marquis Grissom, Vada Pinson, Jeff Bagwell, Raul Mondesi, and Ellis Burks, all fill the bill.
Any other lists?
Or thoughts of where I may have gone wrong?
Greatest Fantasy Players
Greatest Fantasy Players
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Greatest Fantasy Players
I have often thought that Ted Williams gets the short end of the stick in conversations like this. It is so difficult to compare era's, which is the impetus of much of the debate. However, with Williams it's losing 3000-3500 PA's due to serving our country.
Williams had 9791 PA's in his career. He lost 5 years of his career due to war. Those years were ALL in the prime of his career. Do some elementary extrapolation to estimate the numbers he would have put up due to time missed:
3000 PA
850 Hits
150 HR's
600 RBI's
Toss those numbers on his career numbers and Wiliams would maintain his career BA of .344. He would be pushing 3500 hits, sniffing 700 career HR's, and be the all-time leader in RBI's at 2400-2500. Toss in another 600 runs scored and he would be the all time leader at 2400ish - but I'm sure Rickey would still be playing to pass him!
My point is that if Wiliams doesn't lose those 5 years to war, we'd be debating him, Ruth, and Mays as the greatest ever. Instead we look at lists like this and see him in the #8-#12 range.
Williams had 9791 PA's in his career. He lost 5 years of his career due to war. Those years were ALL in the prime of his career. Do some elementary extrapolation to estimate the numbers he would have put up due to time missed:
3000 PA
850 Hits
150 HR's
600 RBI's
Toss those numbers on his career numbers and Wiliams would maintain his career BA of .344. He would be pushing 3500 hits, sniffing 700 career HR's, and be the all-time leader in RBI's at 2400-2500. Toss in another 600 runs scored and he would be the all time leader at 2400ish - but I'm sure Rickey would still be playing to pass him!
My point is that if Wiliams doesn't lose those 5 years to war, we'd be debating him, Ruth, and Mays as the greatest ever. Instead we look at lists like this and see him in the #8-#12 range.
"Luck is the residue of design."
-Branch Rickey
-Branch Rickey
Greatest Fantasy Players
Oops, wrong thread!
Dan, you post so many topics I can't keep up with ya!
Dan, you post so many topics I can't keep up with ya!
"Luck is the residue of design."
-Branch Rickey
-Branch Rickey
Greatest Fantasy Players
True Matt.
And of course, Williams also excelled in the defense of our country. He really did serve. Most players back in the day were kept at camps by commanders so that they could have the best baseball teams.
Mays was one of these players. After being rookie of the year in 1951, he was drafted and 'served' in '52 and '53.
Still, if Mays had those two years in baseball, his numbers woulsd look better as well.
Your post reminded me of how good the Army and Navy teams were back then because so many great athletes felt the need to serve. On the other end of that spectrum were celebrities like Elvis or Mays who were drafted. After being drafted and having the press get photo ops of them receiving their military uniforms and reporting for duty,the Pentagon treated them more as ornaments at respective camps, than military.
Williams went into the military willingly and did not want special treatment. He rised through the ranks on his own merits and fulfilled his duty with honor.
You're right, he had every chance of being recognized as the greatest. But, was robbed of that chance by fate. As is, he still goes down as one of the best. As a ballplayer and as a man.
[ November 13, 2010, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]
And of course, Williams also excelled in the defense of our country. He really did serve. Most players back in the day were kept at camps by commanders so that they could have the best baseball teams.
Mays was one of these players. After being rookie of the year in 1951, he was drafted and 'served' in '52 and '53.
Still, if Mays had those two years in baseball, his numbers woulsd look better as well.
Your post reminded me of how good the Army and Navy teams were back then because so many great athletes felt the need to serve. On the other end of that spectrum were celebrities like Elvis or Mays who were drafted. After being drafted and having the press get photo ops of them receiving their military uniforms and reporting for duty,the Pentagon treated them more as ornaments at respective camps, than military.
Williams went into the military willingly and did not want special treatment. He rised through the ranks on his own merits and fulfilled his duty with honor.
You're right, he had every chance of being recognized as the greatest. But, was robbed of that chance by fate. As is, he still goes down as one of the best. As a ballplayer and as a man.
[ November 13, 2010, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Greatest Fantasy Players
Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:
We've seen posts where we compare some great fantasy years from players. Larry Walker's great year comes to mind. What if we took that to another level and used career performances.
Let's say that we get to draft each player great as a keeper over his career.
For example, when taking Babe Ruth, you would get his pitching stats while pitching and hitting stats while playing a position. Lessening his value a touch, but not much.
Do you draft the ultimate Judy in Ty Cobb?
Positionality of Rogers Hornsby?
I thought this list would somewhat mirror the All Time Greatest Players list. I was wrong to a degree. Willie Mays drops down because now we're going with a more raw numbers approach and defense is not in play.
Like the fantasy game we play now, I didn't think any pitchers should go in my first round, but The W's from Cy Young is too hard to resist.
Speed/Power keeps the modern day element more in play. Guys like Honus Wagner, Cobb, and Eddie Collins are mere Judys, great Judys, but Judys just the same.
Here is my first round:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Babe Ruth
3. Hank Aaron
4. Willie Mays
5. Rickey Henderson
6. Cy Young
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Alex Rodriquez
9. Ted Williams
10.Jimmy Foxx
11.Albert Pujols
12.Frank Robinson
13.Ken Griffey Jr.
14.Vladimir Guerrero
15.Reggie Jackson
I know other lists will vary and I welcome that. I thought this would be a good topic for discussion. In doing some research, I was surprised by some of the names that would probably go in the first 10 rounds.
Guys like Steve Finley, Cesar Cedeno, Marquis Grissom, Vada Pinson, Jeff Bagwell, Raul Mondesi, and Ellis Burks, all fill the bill.
Any other lists?
Or thoughts of where I may have gone wrong? Dough-
Perhaps it's because of my name, but I feel the need to defend Cobb a little here...not the person, but the player. It's impossible to have this type of list without regarding the eras. Cobb was certainly not the ultimate judy when he played. Granted he did lead the league in BA 11 times, SB's 6 times, and Runs 5 times, all big judy strengths...but he also lead the league in RBI's 4 times and HR's once. With a career BA of .366, he's probably a top ten player if you take the era into play. Cobb had a solid 10 years in before the Babe. The Babe did change the game, but the fields were changing too as well as Cobb was starting to age in Babe's prime.
All things considered, I'd have to take Ruth #1 over Mays, Bonds and the rest of them...but I wouldn't totally dis Cobb.
We've seen posts where we compare some great fantasy years from players. Larry Walker's great year comes to mind. What if we took that to another level and used career performances.
Let's say that we get to draft each player great as a keeper over his career.
For example, when taking Babe Ruth, you would get his pitching stats while pitching and hitting stats while playing a position. Lessening his value a touch, but not much.
Do you draft the ultimate Judy in Ty Cobb?
Positionality of Rogers Hornsby?
I thought this list would somewhat mirror the All Time Greatest Players list. I was wrong to a degree. Willie Mays drops down because now we're going with a more raw numbers approach and defense is not in play.
Like the fantasy game we play now, I didn't think any pitchers should go in my first round, but The W's from Cy Young is too hard to resist.
Speed/Power keeps the modern day element more in play. Guys like Honus Wagner, Cobb, and Eddie Collins are mere Judys, great Judys, but Judys just the same.
Here is my first round:
1. Barry Bonds
2. Babe Ruth
3. Hank Aaron
4. Willie Mays
5. Rickey Henderson
6. Cy Young
7. Lou Gehrig
8. Alex Rodriquez
9. Ted Williams
10.Jimmy Foxx
11.Albert Pujols
12.Frank Robinson
13.Ken Griffey Jr.
14.Vladimir Guerrero
15.Reggie Jackson
I know other lists will vary and I welcome that. I thought this would be a good topic for discussion. In doing some research, I was surprised by some of the names that would probably go in the first 10 rounds.
Guys like Steve Finley, Cesar Cedeno, Marquis Grissom, Vada Pinson, Jeff Bagwell, Raul Mondesi, and Ellis Burks, all fill the bill.
Any other lists?
Or thoughts of where I may have gone wrong? Dough-
Perhaps it's because of my name, but I feel the need to defend Cobb a little here...not the person, but the player. It's impossible to have this type of list without regarding the eras. Cobb was certainly not the ultimate judy when he played. Granted he did lead the league in BA 11 times, SB's 6 times, and Runs 5 times, all big judy strengths...but he also lead the league in RBI's 4 times and HR's once. With a career BA of .366, he's probably a top ten player if you take the era into play. Cobb had a solid 10 years in before the Babe. The Babe did change the game, but the fields were changing too as well as Cobb was starting to age in Babe's prime.
All things considered, I'd have to take Ruth #1 over Mays, Bonds and the rest of them...but I wouldn't totally dis Cobb.
"My reputation precedes me. Otherwise I'd be late for all my appointments." - Harry Crumb
Greatest Fantasy Players
This really isn't a dis at Cobb.
We have to go by today's fantasy numbers. Unfortunately, leading the league in home runs during his era still results in a small number of home runs.
Compared to other Power/speed guys, he just would not go in the first round for me.
Where would you put him?
By the way, I've read several of Cobb's biographies, if it is at all possible to admire a total ass, I am one. In a way, baseball needed Cobb at that time. It was a gentleman's game when Cobb came into the league, when he left, it had a 'just win, baby' feel to it.
And out of left field...It is an absolute travesty that Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame.
In today's times, can you conceive of somebody being found innocent in court, only to be denied a living by the Commisioner of baseball?
From Bowie Kuhn to Bud Selig I have written letters, to no avail.
Sorry, off on a jag
We have to go by today's fantasy numbers. Unfortunately, leading the league in home runs during his era still results in a small number of home runs.
Compared to other Power/speed guys, he just would not go in the first round for me.
Where would you put him?
By the way, I've read several of Cobb's biographies, if it is at all possible to admire a total ass, I am one. In a way, baseball needed Cobb at that time. It was a gentleman's game when Cobb came into the league, when he left, it had a 'just win, baby' feel to it.
And out of left field...It is an absolute travesty that Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame.
In today's times, can you conceive of somebody being found innocent in court, only to be denied a living by the Commisioner of baseball?
From Bowie Kuhn to Bud Selig I have written letters, to no avail.
Sorry, off on a jag
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Greatest Fantasy Players
Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:
This really isn't a dis at Cobb.
We have to go by today's fantasy numbers. Unfortunately, leading the league in home runs during his era still results in a small number of home runs.
Compared to other Power/speed guys, he just would not go in the first round for me.
Where would you put him?
By the way, I've read several of Cobb's biographies, if it is at all possible to admire a total ass, I am one. In a way, baseball needed Cobb at that time. It was a gentleman's game when Cobb came into the league, when he left, it had a 'just win, baby' feel to it.
And out of left field...It is an absolute travesty that Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame.
In today's times, can you conceive of somebody being found innocent in court, only to be denied a living by the Commisioner of baseball?
From Bowie Kuhn to Bud Selig I have written letters, to no avail.
Sorry, off on a jag I agree that he's probably not a 1st rounder all-time, I just don't think you could consider him a judy. We probably cannot compare the guys from the dead ball era with everybody else, as the power numbers will always dwarf them. In his prime Cobb was on the HR leaderboard some years...granted it was between 7-9 HR's though.
I don't know where I'd put him honestly because of the era he played in. But I would think somebody who could post .380, 110 R, 100 RBI, 8 HR, and 80 SB's is going to be one hell of a fantasy player even in today's game. Take away some BA and add some HR's in today's parks and I think he could push some of those guys you have listed. But comparing those deadball guys is probably always a losing proposition.
I agree that the Shoeless Joe issue is a travesty, MLB needs to realize it's the 21st century now...plenty of time to right this wrong.
On a side note, can you think of a player past or present that you would least want to call a judy to their face than Cobb? That would be an interesting poll question...
[ November 14, 2010, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Cobb ]
This really isn't a dis at Cobb.
We have to go by today's fantasy numbers. Unfortunately, leading the league in home runs during his era still results in a small number of home runs.
Compared to other Power/speed guys, he just would not go in the first round for me.
Where would you put him?
By the way, I've read several of Cobb's biographies, if it is at all possible to admire a total ass, I am one. In a way, baseball needed Cobb at that time. It was a gentleman's game when Cobb came into the league, when he left, it had a 'just win, baby' feel to it.
And out of left field...It is an absolute travesty that Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame.
In today's times, can you conceive of somebody being found innocent in court, only to be denied a living by the Commisioner of baseball?
From Bowie Kuhn to Bud Selig I have written letters, to no avail.
Sorry, off on a jag
I agree that he's probably not a 1st rounder all-time, I just don't think you could consider him a judy. We probably cannot compare the guys from the dead ball era with everybody else, as the power numbers will always dwarf them. In his prime Cobb was on the HR leaderboard some years...granted it was between 7-9 HR's though.I don't know where I'd put him honestly because of the era he played in. But I would think somebody who could post .380, 110 R, 100 RBI, 8 HR, and 80 SB's is going to be one hell of a fantasy player even in today's game. Take away some BA and add some HR's in today's parks and I think he could push some of those guys you have listed. But comparing those deadball guys is probably always a losing proposition.
I agree that the Shoeless Joe issue is a travesty, MLB needs to realize it's the 21st century now...plenty of time to right this wrong.
On a side note, can you think of a player past or present that you would least want to call a judy to their face than Cobb? That would be an interesting poll question...
[ November 14, 2010, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Cobb ]
"My reputation precedes me. Otherwise I'd be late for all my appointments." - Harry Crumb
Greatest Fantasy Players
True. Cobb would be last on my list.
I could imagine that Joe Rudi and John Garland would both take particular umbrage in being called Judy.
I could imagine that Joe Rudi and John Garland would both take particular umbrage in being called Judy.
On my tombstone-
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Wait! I never had the perfect draft!
Greatest Fantasy Players
Greg Maddux? Pedro Martinez?
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart