Should Marvin Miller Be In The Hall of Fame?

[Greg Ambrosius]

The Veteran's Committee elected former GM Pat Gillick to the Baseball Hall of Fame today, which is a nice honor for a guy who built three teams who won World Series titles. He was a good judge of talent and a solid top executive.



But I find it interesting that former MLBPA head Marvin Miller still isn't in the Hall of Fame. Is there anyone who changed the game more than Marvin Miller? Okay, probably there have been others, but few have had the impact on the game that Miller had. And while nobody wanted the Strike of '82, what the baseball union fought for led to an explosion in salaries for all professional sports players and changed the face of all of the leagues. He missed by one vote, but at 93 he may not live to see his bronze bust in Cooperstown.



Do you think Marvin Miller should be in the Hall of Fame? Why or why not?

[DOUGHBOYS]

No.

In the end, he is just a union leader. A union leader for the times, the perfect leader for the players.

Hall of Fame?

No.



Scott Boras continues getting more clients and getting them more money, like Miller, he is excellent at his job, like Miller, changing baseball.

He is the perfect agent for most players.

Is he a Hall of Famer?

Again, no.



Curt Flood would get a vote from me before Marvin Miller. Flood passed up a $100,000 contract (1969 money) to defy the reserve clause. He was persecuted long after, while Miller and players from future generations benefitted.



Jimmy Hoffa belongs in the 'Hide and seek' Hall of Fame. Not in the union leaders Hall. The opposite for Miller. He belongs in the union leaders Hall. Not in baseball's Hall of Fame.



[ December 06, 2010, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: DOUGHBOYS ]

[Glenneration X]

I would vote no. Though Miller certainly had a tremendous influence on the game during his tenure, I'm not sure the PTB feel that influence has been all positive. I'm pretty sure I don't either.



While Miller certainly did a lot for the modern ballplayer by setting the wheels in motion to resolve the inequities between the game's revenues and players' compensation, the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.



While players used to be one of us, now they are apart. While players can now afford all the luxuries of life, the modern middle income family needs a 2nd mortgage to take a family of five to a ballgame.



Day games, scheduled doubleheaders, a free autograph, players being identified with one team and community, a World Series game that starts early enough for my son to watch, even the playing of the World Series being a guarantee...all pretty much remnants of a bygone era as baseball's players and owners all concentrate on the almighty dollar.



Did Marvin Miller accomplish his goals and excel at his job? No doubt. If the players voted for the Hall of Fame, would he be the first unanimous inductee? I'd bet (Jayson Werth would probably be his campaign manager). If the fans voted? I don't think so.



Glenn



[ December 06, 2010, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

[Greg Ambrosius]

I tend to disagree there Glenn. To say that it's Marvin Miller's fault because the players have earned more power than the owners isn't fair. The owners can't help themselves when they can pay for any player they want and the Werth signing is a perfect example. Wouldn't just signing Adam Dunn have done more for the Nats then overpaying for Werth??



Saying it's Marvin Miller's fault with the game where it is now is like saying its the Founding Fathers fault that freedom has led to greed, a deep recession, foreclosures, Afghanistan, the Iraq War and the rest of our troubles today. We still have freedom and the visionaries couldn't foresee what greed would do to the plan.



[ December 06, 2010, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Greg Ambrosius ]

[Glenneration X]

You mean George Washington isn't to blame for the banking crisis?



Glenn



[ December 06, 2010, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Glenneration X ]

[Walla Walla]

I'd vote for the San Diego Chicken first. He brought alot more joy to the fans than Miller did!

[LONG GONE]

Marvin Miller will be in the Hall Of Fame one of these day's.

[Navel Lint]

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

No.

In the end, he is just a union leader. A union leader for the times, the perfect leader for the players.

Hall of Fame?

No.



Scott Boras continues getting more clients and getting them more money, like Miller, he is excellent at his job, like Miller, changing baseball.

He is the perfect agent for most players.

Is he a Hall of Famer?

Again, no.



Curt Flood would get a vote from me before Marvin Miller. Flood passed up a $100,000 contract (1969 money) to defy the reserve clause. He was persecuted long after, while Miller and players from future generations benefitted.



While Curt Flood continues to get credit for bringing about the end of the Reserve Clause, the truth is that he lost in the court system. He may have taken a brave stand as an individual that ended up costing him personally, but essentially, his case only reaffirmed the owner’s right to employ the reserve clause.



It wasn’t for another five years that the players earned the right to limited free agency. Grievances were filed by the union for Messersmith and McNally and they eventually won their cases via arbitration. The right to have arbitration itself was won by the players union during the 1972 contract negotiations with the owners.



Does being a great union leader for the players deserve a spot in the HOF? He never threw a pitch or hit a homer, but then again neither did Pat Gillick. The HOF has several baseball executives and managers in the players wing, and of course, the Hall has a separate dedicated media wing.



At least I give this new veterans committee some applause for consistency. They didn’t vote George Steinbrenner in either. A good case could be made that Miller and Steinbrenner go hand in hand, one was seeking to get more money for the players thru the free market, and the other was willing to use that market to buy a championship. In the end, they both got what they wanted.



Two side notes*****



(1) Once again, Ted Simmons was relegated to being at footnote yesterday. Simmons may be the most under-appreciated catcher of all-time.



He was an 8 time allstar.

Had more RBI than Bench, Fisk, Piazza or Carter

Had more hits(2472) than any catcher except I Rodriguez

Is 10th on the HR list for catchers.



When you get a chance, look up his numbers, the guy was good.



(2) If you really want to see an interesting interview about the reserve clause. Check out this 1957 interview between Mike Wallace and baseball legend Bob Feller. It’s about 25 minutes long, but the first 10-15 mins is about the reserve clause. Again remember, this was 1957, a full decade before Curt Flood made his stand.



Wallace-Feller Video

[DOUGHBOYS]

Originally posted by Navel Lint:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

No.

In the end, he is just a union leader. A union leader for the times, the perfect leader for the players.

Hall of Fame?

No.



Scott Boras continues getting more clients and getting them more money, like Miller, he is excellent at his job, like Miller, changing baseball.

He is the perfect agent for most players.

Is he a Hall of Famer?

Again, no.



Curt Flood would get a vote from me before Marvin Miller. Flood passed up a $100,000 contract (1969 money) to defy the reserve clause. He was persecuted long after, while Miller and players from future generations benefitted.



While Curt Flood continues to get credit for bringing about the end of the Reserve Clause, the truth is that he lost in the court system. He may have taken a brave stand as an individual that ended up costing him personally, but essentially, his case only reaffirmed the owner’s right to employ the reserve clause.



It wasn’t for another five years that the players earned the right to limited free agency. Grievances were filed by the union for Messersmith and McNally and they eventually won their cases via arbitration. The right to have arbitration itself was won by the players union during the 1972 contract negotiations with the owners.



Does being a great union leader for the players deserve a spot in the HOF? He never threw a pitch or hit a homer, but then again neither did Pat Gillick. The HOF has several baseball executives and managers in the players wing, and of course, the Hall has a separate dedicated media wing.



At least I give this new veterans committee some applause for consistency. They didn’t vote George Steinbrenner in either. A good case could be made that Miller and Steinbrenner go hand in hand, one was seeking to get more money for the players thru the free market, and the other was willing to use that market to buy a championship. In the end, they both got what they wanted.



Two side notes*****



(1) Once again, Ted Simmons was relegated to being at footnote yesterday. Simmons may be the most under-appreciated catcher of all-time.



He was an 8 time allstar.

Had more RBI than Bench, Fisk, Piazza or Carter

Had more hits(2472) than any catcher except I Rodriguez

Is 10th on the HR list for catchers.



When you get a chance, look up his numbers, the guy was good.



(2) If you really want to see an interesting interview about the reserve clause. Check out this 1957 interview between Mike Wallace and baseball legend Bob Feller. It’s about 25 minutes long, but the first 10-15 mins is about the reserve clause. Again remember, this was 1957, a full decade before Curt Flood made his stand.



Wallace-Feller Video [/QUOTE]Flood gets little credit for bringing down the reserve clause. His case was the roots of the dismantling of the reserve clause. The country and Supreme Court sided with Major League Baseball.

Flood was thought of as a boat rocker by MLB and as a ingrate by fans. In the end, it was lose-lose-lose for him.

Funny that the reserve clause was eventually brought down by, essentially, a loophole.



Agreed about Simmons. Even during his playing days, he got little recognition. Besides Rose, Reggie Smith was thought to be the best switch hitter of that era. I thought Simmons was better.

[DOUGHBOYS]

By the way, I really enjoyed the Wallace-Feller interview. Astounding that they described baseball pretty much as it is now.



I also liked how Wallace was promoting cigarettes, as he was questioning Feller about baseballs use of beer sponsorships.

Classic.