Free agents, Bids or Drafts?

triple a · Post by **triple a** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:56 am

what do you guys think is better for picking up free agents, FAAB bids or worst to first in rounds each week? i personally think that using a draft for picking up free agents is much better. teams on the bottom should have first crack at picking up a player each week since they need more help due to unlucky injuries etc. i think its more fair to the league this way. teams on the top should not be able to get the best player available each week.

draft leagues should use drafting for free agents, and the auction leagues should use bids for free agents since thats the style they play. i also think worst to first each free agent round keeps the teams on the bottom interested longer knowing that they can make a comeback by picking up the right players with the first pick each week. it just may keep the lower teams from giving up earlier. you can put a limit on the number of pickups a team can use during the year say 25 free agent pickups per year.

guessing what number to make your blind bid on each player is all luck. blind bidding 77 on a player only to be outbid by a 79 is not really showing any skill or the better roto player in my opinion.

interested to hear your thoughts. thanks triple a

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:21 am

Originally posted by triple a:

what do you guys think is better for picking up free agents, FAAB bids or worst to first in rounds each week? i personally think that using a draft for picking up free agents is much better. teams on the bottom should have first crack at picking up a player each week since they need more help due to unlucky injuries etc. i think its more fair to the league this way. teams on the top should not be able to get the best player available each week.

draft leagues should use drafting for free agents, and the auction leagues should use bids for free agents since thats the style they play. i also think worst to first each free agent round keeps the teams on the bottom interested longer knowing that they can make a comeback by picking up the right players with the first pick each week. it just may keep the lower teams from giving up earlier. you can put a limit on the number of pickups a team can use during the year say 25 free agent pickups per year.

guessing what number to make your blind bid on each player is all luck. blind bidding 77 on a player only to be outbid by a 79 is not really showing any skill or the better roto player in my opinion.

interested to hear your thoughts. thanks triple a Hey Artie - what is the problem that you are trying to fix here?

Do you see some inherent inequity or are you trying to level the playing field somehow?

Dyv

nydownunder · Post by **nydownunder** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:22 am

I don't think either one is better than the other.

viper · Post by **viper** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:27 am

The FAAB process is what gives this league character. It's hard to imagine giving some team an automatic first pick after a whole seven days because they got off to a slow start. At about the halfway point, you can begin to talk to me about a ESPN football style waiver process but even then I would prefer the FAAB. I admit that each week's FAAB process gives me fits. Last year it was just did I bid enough. Now I get to fret over bidding too much.

[ April 12, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: viper ]

triple a · Post by **triple a** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:34 am

i think the way it is now is leveling the playing field. people just enter a random number so anyone can get anybody. its luck if your bid is the highest or not. during the course of the year by making a free agent order or list of who are the best free agents out there, the better roto player will have the better lists and make better pickups. there is no doubt about that. strategy in how you order your list, who you think or dont think the guy ahead of you is going to take, what rankings do you give to the free agents in the pool etc. i am not trying to fix anything just i think my way is better. just looking for opinions and starting up some conversation triple a

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:59 am

Originally posted by triple a:

i think the way it is now is leveling the playing field. people just enter a random number so anyone can get anybody. its luck if your bid is the highest or not. during the course of the year by making a free agent order or list of who are the best free agents out there, the better roto player will have the better lists and make better pickups. there is no doubt about that. strategy in how you order your list, who you think or dont think the guy ahead of you is going to take, what rankings do you give to the free agents in the pool etc. i am not trying to fix anything just i think my way is better. just looking for opinions and starting up some conversation triple a I hear ya

I kind of like things as they are now - especially given standings today - don't have the value of who is really a 'good' or 'bad' team as much as they will in 60 days or later in the season. There are a lot of players off to slow starts (Pujols) and others blazing (Burrell) but you can't tell me the team that got Pujols is worse than the one that got Burrell on this small amount of data, can you?

As the system stands now, someone can go high on that kind of player if they want to... or perhaps they drafted 3 closers and really see no point in spending a ton more on saves and would rather keep their dollars for later?

I do also believe there is more than luck in the FA bids you put in. Bid as much as you desire based on the potential of the player and the needs of your team. If a reliever comes up with save potential and you have 3 closers you may put in a more modest bid than others.

I love the strategy in the system right now.

Dave

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:10 am

Originally posted by triple a:

i think the way it is now is leveling the playing field. people just enter a random number so anyone can get anybody. I 100% disagree.

Having been around this 20 years, FAAB is still pretty new to the game.

Except for the few that always panic, there is a huge amount of strategy each and every week, and for the whole season with FAAB. Those that learn every aspect of all the strategies the quickest will benefit the most.

Russ Branyan was WORTH $26 to me Week 1. I didn't have to have him, but I could use a few more HR's, and I really liked what I saw of him in 2 games in Spring Training. I guess the MIL mgr does too as Cirillo hasn't started since his nice game 1.

Counsell was worth $36 to me Week 2 as I only have 3 SB and he could get 10-15. If I put a $5 bid and don't get him, and there are no other 10-15 SB guys out there at the moment, then my $5 bid is pretty stupid. Turns out to be a good move with T.Walker going down.

The reason you see higher bids in other leagues is because owners have GREATER needs, exceptions already noted...

JerseyPaul · Post by **JerseyPaul** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:51 am

Why should bad drafting result in a benefit...a higher waiver wire position. We're not looking for helping the worst teams...we're looking to bury them.

As for bidding not having a skill factor.... nonsense. Knowing when a player will have an impact on your team and then knowing how much to bid to close the deal...and knowing how to use conditional bids...well, it's clear that many have no clue.

Worst to first? Sounds okay for Yahoo.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:02 am

Originally posted by JerseyPaul:

Why should bad drafting result in a benefit...a higher waiver wire position. We're not looking for helping the worst teams...we're looking to bury them.

As for bidding not having a skill factor.... nonsense. Knowing when a player will have an impact on your team and then knowing how much to bid to close the deal...and knowing how to use conditional bids...well, it's clear that many have no clue.

Worst to first? Sounds okay for Yahoo. Well, bury them... but encourage them to come back for next year

Dyv

devilznj · Post by **devilznj** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:23 am

This is my first year and trying to get a handle on the free agent process seems almost impossible - but I think the system is pretty cool. Everyone is in the same boat and an element of mystery and surpise makes 7:00 - 8:00pm on Sunday night more intriguing than watching 60 minutes.

As far as the poor teams getting first dibs on free agents that would be okay if it was done on a nightly basis so there would be some more skill and timing added to the process, but for a weekly thing knowing you literally have no shot at someone because you happen to be high in the standings early in the year is stinko.

JerseyPaul · Post by **JerseyPaul** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:16 pm

Originally posted by JerseyPaul:

Why should bad drafting result in a benefit...a higher waiver wire position. We're not looking for helping the worst teams...we're looking to bury them.

As for bidding not having a skill factor.... nonsense. Knowing when a player will have an impact on your team and then knowing how much to bid to close the deal...and knowing how to use conditional bids...well, it's clear that many have no clue.

Worst to first? Sounds okay for Yahoo. Edited to add:

This comes from a team that sucked the first week.

Gordon Gekko · Post by **Gordon Gekko** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:38 pm

Originally posted by triple a:

what do you guys think is better for picking up free agents, FAAB bids or worst to first in rounds each week? easily FAAB. not even close. this isn't a basement league

Latham · Post by **Latham** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:42 pm

FAAB is the only way to go. I hate seeing teams penalized for doing well and teams rewarded for for not doing well. The top free agents should be available to everyone to have a shot at, depending on what you think they are worth. Keep they playing field as level as possible and let the strong teams that have good years and are lucky enough to stay healthy, rise to the top. Good luck, stay healthy and keep your pitchers out of Coors Field!

Latham

Red Sox Nation- · Post by **Red Sox Nation-** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:19 am

Who cares about the bottom teams!! I'm in it for the money and not to help the cellar dwellars!!

Cellar Dwellers · Post by **Cellar Dwellers** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:56 pm

Originally posted by Jason Duponte:

Who cares about the bottom teams!! I'm in it for the money and not to help the cellar dwellars!! Hey!, What does my team have to do with this :rolleyes:

mrphikapp · Post by **mrphikapp** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:02 pm

PERSONALLLY, I think that a waiver process where teams use that waiver priority all year and it is based off of the inverse of the draft order is more "Fair". Since you start a season by drafting you have to admit that those with early draft picks get a slight advantage over those with middle to late draft picks. Given the inherent flaw in the inistial draft system it seems only fair that you carry that same or at least similar process throughout the season and give the last team the first waiver priority. Thereby somewhat negating the advantage that was gained during hte draft by those teams that got lucky with a good waiver position. Just my .02 cents. I agree that it is only fair to maintain a FA budget for those that are in auction leagues as that follows suit and maintains the same methodology as the draft so it works. Think of it from a truly unbiased basis and you have to see the logic here even if it doesn't benefit you it does make sense...

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:14 pm

Originally posted by mrphikapp:

PERSONALLLY, I think that a waiver process where teams use that waiver priority all year and it is based off of the inverse of the draft order is more "Fair". Since you start a season by drafting you have to admit that those with early draft picks get a slight advantage over those with middle to late draft picks. Given the inherent flaw in the inistial draft system it seems only fair that you carry that same or at least similar process throughout the season and give the last team the first waiver priority. Thereby somewhat negating the advantage that was gained during hte draft by those teams that got lucky with a good waiver position. Just my .02 cents. I agree that it is only fair to maintain a FA budget for those that are in auction leagues as that follows suit and maintains the same methodology as the draft so it works. Think of it from a truly unbiased basis and you have to see the logic here even if it doesn't benefit you it does make sense... Well, with 15 teams and waivers thin... this could essentially mean a team can't make moves. If a team was way out in 1st place it's not hard to imagine the rest of the league blocking that person from making moves. I sure as heck would... if the top team lost a 2b, I'd scoop up the best 2b I could get from waivers even if I didn't need one just to harm. If 3-4 owners did that in our league it would crush that owner for no particular reason. Is the supposed draft disadvantage really that significant? Those Arod and Pujols owners are just dominating everyone else? I don't believe there is a bad draft spot in 15 team baseball... it's all in how you build your team.

Dyv

mrphikapp · Post by **mrphikapp** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:15 pm

Well, with 15 teams and waivers thin... this could essentially mean a team can't make moves. If a team was way out in 1st place it's not hard to imagine the rest of the league blocking that person from making moves. I sure as heck would... if the top team lost a 2b, I'd scoop up the best 2b I could get from waivers even if I didn't need one just to harm. If 3-4 owners did that in our league it would crush that owner for no particular reason. Is the supposed draft disadvantage really that significant? Those Arod and Pujols owners are just dominating everyone else? I don't believe there is a bad draft spot in 15 team baseball... it's all in how you build your team. While this assessment would be fine based on the previous person's post I can't possibly see how it would be relevent with the structure I laid out vis avie the way ESPN BASEBALL works. Everyone is set in waiver order based on thier draft position INITIALLY but they are then reset to last when they make a claim and everyone moves up a spot. Waivers does not reset from week to week it is merely a ranked order that is only INITIALLY based on the draft then keeps the order from one week to another where as you make a claim you go to last. The only way that your statement would even begin to hold water is if you were to be making the argument that there were to be less then 15 waiver players worth picking up throughout the season. Given that we are using a football situation and EVERYONE goes on waivers every week and then waivers are processed I find that to be a fairly assanine argument.

Dyv · Post by **Dyv** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:45 pm

Originally posted by mrphikapp:

quote: Well, with 15 teams and waivers thin... this could essentially mean a team can't make moves. If a team was way out in 1st place it's not hard to imagine the rest of the league blocking that person from making moves. I sure as heck would... if the top team lost a 2b, I'd scoop up the best 2b I could get from waivers even if I didn't need one just to harm. If 3-4 owners did that in our league it would crush that owner for no particular reason. Is the supposed draft disadvantage really that significant? Those Arod and Pujols owners are just dominating everyone else? I don't believe there is a bad draft spot in 15 team baseball... it's all in how you build your team. While this assessment would be fine based on the previous person's post I can't possibly see how it would be relevent with the structure I laid out vis avie the way ESPN BASEBALL works. Everyone is set in waiver order based on thier draft position INITIALLY but they are then reset to last when they make a claim and everyone moves up a spot. Waivers does not reset from week to week it is merely a ranked order that is only INITIALLY based on the draft then keeps the order from one week to another where as you make a claim you go to last. The only way that your statement would even begin to hold water is if you were to be making the argument that there were to be less then 15 waiver players worth picking up throughout the season. Given that we are using a football situation and EVERYONE goes on waivers every week and then waivers are processed I find that to be a fairly assanine argument. [/QUOTE]I specialize in assanine arguments.

Let me just say I think waiver orders are for kiddie contests and the big leagues should play FA Budgets. You can't argue that FA budgets are inherently unfair. Everyone has the same opportunities at the start of the year and can squander or brilliantly spend their FA money as they choose.

As a matter of fact, I'd like to give each team $1000 for the year and let them spend that to buy draft position if they chose. I'd gladly take the 15th pick and all my FA money over 1st pick and $54 for my roster management because I had to have the first pick!

Your rationale that there is some built in bias against late picks is lame

D

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:08 pm

Originally posted by mrphikapp:

PERSONALLLY, I think that a waiver process where teams use that waiver priority all year and it is based off of the inverse of the draft order is more "Fair". Since you start a season by drafting you have to admit that those with early draft picks get a slight advantage over those with middle to late draft picks. Given the inherent flaw in the inistial draft system it seems only fair that you carry that same or at least similar process throughout the season and give the last team the first waiver priority. Thereby somewhat negating the advantage that was gained during hte draft by those teams that got lucky with a good waiver position. Just my .02 cents. I agree that it is only fair to maintain a FA budget for those that are in auction leagues as that follows suit and maintains the same methodology as the draft so it works. Think of it from a truly unbiased basis and you have to see the logic here even if it doesn't benefit you it does make sense... All I have to say is....

see below

mrphikapp · Post by **mrphikapp** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:22 am

While I agree with you in theory you can't tell me that having the 15th pick and having the 1st pick are equal assuming that both owners are evenly matched from a whits perspective the owner with the 1st pick should win every time. That being said obviously everyone is not evenly matched but the only system (everything has to be theoretical since there is absolutely no way to conduct a true experiment) that allows for that discrepency to be addressed would be a system like the one which I laid out. Everyone gets their overall waiver priority and everyone gets their discretion of how to use it. This means that you have a game within the game as holding the #1 waiver priority can be both a blessing and a curse. I mean really who wants to use the #1 waiver just to see the studd of all studds emerge the following week. You have to take into account that the reason that your "There are no bad draft picks only bad owners" statement only really holds water because of the second half of the statment. Assuming you had all good owners and setting it up so that everyone had the same information and the same exact ideas there is an inherent advantage to the earlier pick even with the snake in most cases the dropoff in the odd rounds is going to be worse then the dropoff in the even rounds and so the "Snake" advantage doesn't negate the absolute increased value of the "Studd" players that oyu get in the first 4 picks. You also have to factor in the risks. Can an owner with a late pick wind up with a steal, certainly, but if you gave me a choice between say Pujols and say Randy Johnson is extreme and they are not even at the extreme #1 to #15 bounds they are more like a #1 and a #10 pick. Getting the #15 any way you slice it leaves the owner in the precarious position of having to make a tough choice between UGE injury risk guys and guys that are safer but with FAR less upside and that is in the first rounds. If you carry that forward into that late rounds the difference can become even more profound as it is VERY easy to control a draft by filling needs and holes early with an early pick and by jumping players from time to time. Once you get to the late rounds it is the late picks that are often left scrounging for low potential or high risk players as they have holes to fill while those in the high positions were able to use the position to their advantage leaving better roster flexibility and more opportunity to pick up late round value.