I do not know how to do it...but the way MLB handles the category Wins needs a tweak.
SP deals 7 innings of 4 hit, 2 ER ball...has a 2 run lead...RP comes in and gives up 2 ER in 1 inning, the team rallies...and RP gets the W.
I say if there is a blown save involved...the player doesn't qualify to get the Win, and it reverts back one pitcher. A SP needs to complete 5 innings to qualify for a win...yet the rest of the game...a players can pitch as little as one out, and get the win. It seems like an outdated way to pass out a win.
I'd like to remove the entire win category...as it is out of the pitchers control (run support and the timing of the support)
K, ERA, WHIP...all in the P control. Saves is more or less in the P control as well usually based on one inning of work.
Adding OBP or total bases would be a good replacement for Wins. Since most wins really come from 7 of the 23 starters each week (assuming 2 RP/Closers)...the ratio of starting hitters to pitchers would benefit to having 6 hitting categories (14 starters) and 4 pitching categories (only 9 starters).
Board has been dead...and I hate vulture wins given to inferior pitchers.
~Lance
[ May 24, 2006, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
Ranting again...
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sportsbettingman
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Ranting again...
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
Ranting again...
Er, 7 of 10 fantasy categories and 4 of 5 pitching categories depend not solely on the player stats, but on team support (I guess manager support w/r/t stolen bases). Get over it. I hope you're not just figuring this out now.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
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sportsbettingman
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Ranting again...
I think you went overboard on your logic.
I agree that a P relies on DEF to reduce hits allowed...but not walks...thus whip can be controlled w/out teamates to a degree.
ERA is not effected by errors...so cast that under a controlled cat.
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.
Best not to even state an opinion so weak.
Saves are reliant on DEF so much that you would not give the pitcher credit? What are all the players on his team doing...colluding to allow runs and create a loss for their team???
4 of 5 pitching cats decided outside the P is a joke.
I admit you worded your statement as weakly as possible to allow for its defense...but...
"4 of 5 pitching categories depend not solely on the player stats, but on team support (I guess manager support w/r/t stolen bases). Get over it. I hope you're not just figuring this out now."
It is a team sport...you must believe that the team will try to win...thus...your statement is pure fluff.
Get over what?
You talk like a big boy...yet your posts are full of **** .
The degree to needing support in getting awarded a win...compared to a simple run or hit or RBI or SB are not close. Bad argument...and bad comment.
I guess your entire premise of posting could have been to induce more posts.
You sure don't offer anything of value.
~Lance
[ May 25, 2006, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
I agree that a P relies on DEF to reduce hits allowed...but not walks...thus whip can be controlled w/out teamates to a degree.
ERA is not effected by errors...so cast that under a controlled cat.
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.
Best not to even state an opinion so weak.
Saves are reliant on DEF so much that you would not give the pitcher credit? What are all the players on his team doing...colluding to allow runs and create a loss for their team???
4 of 5 pitching cats decided outside the P is a joke.
I admit you worded your statement as weakly as possible to allow for its defense...but...
"4 of 5 pitching categories depend not solely on the player stats, but on team support (I guess manager support w/r/t stolen bases). Get over it. I hope you're not just figuring this out now."
It is a team sport...you must believe that the team will try to win...thus...your statement is pure fluff.
Get over what?
You talk like a big boy...yet your posts are full of **** .
The degree to needing support in getting awarded a win...compared to a simple run or hit or RBI or SB are not close. Bad argument...and bad comment.
I guess your entire premise of posting could have been to induce more posts.
You sure don't offer anything of value.
~Lance
[ May 25, 2006, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
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Edwards Kings
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- Location: Duluth, Georgia
Ranting again...
I understand your point, but as a stat, Wins are the name of the game. I would go so far as to say it is the most important stat. A team, any team is out there to win, not to get cumulative homeruns, strikeouts, stolen bases, ets. Another category is even predicated on "saving" the win. So, in my opinion, it would be difficult to exclude.
I know that fantasy baseball is not really like "real" MLB, but certain practices are common to provide the fantasy owner some of the illusion of managing a big league team. To me, it helps make it enjoyable. Wins are one of those categories (as opposed to pure statistical categories that are "performance" based as opposed to "results" based like Wins).
On another vein, trying to capture Wins calls for a great deal of fantasy baseball strategy. Do you go with a good pitcher (ERA, WHIP, K) on a mediocre team and settle for 10-12 wins (on a good team the same pitcher might win 15-17)? Or do you go with a mediocre pitcher on a good team (see Yankee's pitcher this year outside of Mussina) to get the 15-17 wins, but get banged on WHIP and ERA? Do you go with the MR with good numbers who might get you 7-9 wins?
I like wins because trying to predict them drives me crazy. To me they add to the challenge. And like you it drives me NUTS when some MR comes in, gives up a long ball allowing a couple of runners inherited from my SP to score, then is the pitcher of record when the team retakes the lead and the MR gets the "Vulture of the Year" award. But to me it is part of the game! Just my thoughts.
I know that fantasy baseball is not really like "real" MLB, but certain practices are common to provide the fantasy owner some of the illusion of managing a big league team. To me, it helps make it enjoyable. Wins are one of those categories (as opposed to pure statistical categories that are "performance" based as opposed to "results" based like Wins).
On another vein, trying to capture Wins calls for a great deal of fantasy baseball strategy. Do you go with a good pitcher (ERA, WHIP, K) on a mediocre team and settle for 10-12 wins (on a good team the same pitcher might win 15-17)? Or do you go with a mediocre pitcher on a good team (see Yankee's pitcher this year outside of Mussina) to get the 15-17 wins, but get banged on WHIP and ERA? Do you go with the MR with good numbers who might get you 7-9 wins?
I like wins because trying to predict them drives me crazy. To me they add to the challenge. And like you it drives me NUTS when some MR comes in, gives up a long ball allowing a couple of runners inherited from my SP to score, then is the pitcher of record when the team retakes the lead and the MR gets the "Vulture of the Year" award. But to me it is part of the game! Just my thoughts.
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer
Charles Krauthammer
Ranting again...
Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
I think you went overboard on your logic.
I agree that a P relies on DEF to reduce hits allowed...but not walks...thus whip can be controlled w/out teamates to a degree.
ERA is not effected by errors...so cast that under a controlled cat.
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.
Best not to even state an opinion so weak.
Saves are reliant on DEF so much that you would not give the pitcher credit? What are all the players on his team doing...colluding to allow runs and create a loss for their team???
4 of 5 pitching cats decided outside the P is a joke.
I admit you worded your statement as weakly as possible to allow for its defense...but...
"4 of 5 pitching categories depend not solely on the player stats, but on team support (I guess manager support w/r/t stolen bases). Get over it. I hope you're not just figuring this out now."
It is a team sport...you must believe that the team will try to win...thus...your statement is pure fluff.
Get over what?
You talk like a big boy...yet your posts are full of **** .
The degree to needing support in getting awarded a win...compared to a simple run or hit or RBI or SB are not close. Bad argument...and bad comment.
I guess your entire premise of posting could have been to induce more posts.
You sure don't offer anything of value.
~Lance Don't get angry just because you're wrong. WHIP is decided by walks and hits. Hits are determined more by defense than any other factor. ERA is heavily affected by defense (and if you're measuring defense by errors, go back to baseball 101). Wins we agree on and saves depend more on team support than anything else, good starting pitching, defense, offense, you name it. That's why a crappy pitcher like Dan Miceli could go for $200 a pop.K's we agree on, though they are affected by catcher and league to a degree. 4 of 5.
Runs and RBI's are affected by the lineup. It's intuitive that David Ortiz wouldn't put up his numbers in KC. SB's are greatly affected by a managers willingness to send a guy. 3 more. Sorry.
I think you went overboard on your logic.
I agree that a P relies on DEF to reduce hits allowed...but not walks...thus whip can be controlled w/out teamates to a degree.
ERA is not effected by errors...so cast that under a controlled cat.
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.
Best not to even state an opinion so weak.
Saves are reliant on DEF so much that you would not give the pitcher credit? What are all the players on his team doing...colluding to allow runs and create a loss for their team???
4 of 5 pitching cats decided outside the P is a joke.
I admit you worded your statement as weakly as possible to allow for its defense...but...
"4 of 5 pitching categories depend not solely on the player stats, but on team support (I guess manager support w/r/t stolen bases). Get over it. I hope you're not just figuring this out now."
It is a team sport...you must believe that the team will try to win...thus...your statement is pure fluff.
Get over what?
You talk like a big boy...yet your posts are full of **** .
The degree to needing support in getting awarded a win...compared to a simple run or hit or RBI or SB are not close. Bad argument...and bad comment.
I guess your entire premise of posting could have been to induce more posts.
You sure don't offer anything of value.
~Lance Don't get angry just because you're wrong. WHIP is decided by walks and hits. Hits are determined more by defense than any other factor. ERA is heavily affected by defense (and if you're measuring defense by errors, go back to baseball 101). Wins we agree on and saves depend more on team support than anything else, good starting pitching, defense, offense, you name it. That's why a crappy pitcher like Dan Miceli could go for $200 a pop.K's we agree on, though they are affected by catcher and league to a degree. 4 of 5.
Runs and RBI's are affected by the lineup. It's intuitive that David Ortiz wouldn't put up his numbers in KC. SB's are greatly affected by a managers willingness to send a guy. 3 more. Sorry.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
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King of Queens
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Ranting again...
Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.Surprised you missed this one in your breakdown, BJOak. When the catcher drops the third strike, and the batter reaches first, it's still a strikeout. That's why you've had pitchers striking out 4 batters in a single inning. I don't believe anyone's ever had 5 K's, but according to the rules, there are no limit to the number of strikeouts a pitcher can have.
It seems the only lack of control a pitcher has concerning strikeouts is that a high total will usually also result in a high pitchcount, which will likely lead to his manager giving him the hook earlier in the game. Of course, the sooner the pitcher departs, the less likely he is to figure in the decision.
[ May 25, 2006, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: King of Queens ]
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.Surprised you missed this one in your breakdown, BJOak. When the catcher drops the third strike, and the batter reaches first, it's still a strikeout. That's why you've had pitchers striking out 4 batters in a single inning. I don't believe anyone's ever had 5 K's, but according to the rules, there are no limit to the number of strikeouts a pitcher can have.
It seems the only lack of control a pitcher has concerning strikeouts is that a high total will usually also result in a high pitchcount, which will likely lead to his manager giving him the hook earlier in the game. Of course, the sooner the pitcher departs, the less likely he is to figure in the decision.
[ May 25, 2006, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: King of Queens ]
Ranting again...
Originally posted by King of Queens:
quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.Surprised you missed this one in your breakdown, BJOak. When the catcher drops the third strike, and the batter reaches first, it's still a strikeout. That's why you've had pitchers striking out 4 batters in a single inning. I don't believe anyone's ever had 5 K's, but according to the rules, there are no limit to the number of strikeouts a pitcher can have.
It seems the only lack of control a pitcher has concerning strikeouts is that a high total will usually also result in a high pitchcount, which will likely lead to his manager giving him the hook earlier in the game. Of course, the sooner the pitcher departs, the less likely he is to figure in the decision. [/QUOTE]Yeah, I only meant a catcher has control insofar as he is usually calling the game. NL pitchers also get more K's because they face pitchers.
On your second point, it's true and you can benefit in K's even if you're stud pitcher doesn't have a tremendous K/9 rate if he is, say, Brandon Webb who pitches so many innings that he makes up for low inning K totals with a high number of innings. I believe his K/9 has gone down this year only because he is facing less batters per inning and not because he is striking out a lower percentage!
quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
K's are almost 100% controlled...unless your catcher drops every third strike, and allows the batter to reach base.Surprised you missed this one in your breakdown, BJOak. When the catcher drops the third strike, and the batter reaches first, it's still a strikeout. That's why you've had pitchers striking out 4 batters in a single inning. I don't believe anyone's ever had 5 K's, but according to the rules, there are no limit to the number of strikeouts a pitcher can have.
It seems the only lack of control a pitcher has concerning strikeouts is that a high total will usually also result in a high pitchcount, which will likely lead to his manager giving him the hook earlier in the game. Of course, the sooner the pitcher departs, the less likely he is to figure in the decision. [/QUOTE]Yeah, I only meant a catcher has control insofar as he is usually calling the game. NL pitchers also get more K's because they face pitchers.
On your second point, it's true and you can benefit in K's even if you're stud pitcher doesn't have a tremendous K/9 rate if he is, say, Brandon Webb who pitches so many innings that he makes up for low inning K totals with a high number of innings. I believe his K/9 has gone down this year only because he is facing less batters per inning and not because he is striking out a lower percentage!
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Ranting again...
Back to the original point - I agree - the way WINS are assigned when an RP gives up runs that tie the game (or the lead) and then gets a win due to offense, is just insane.
Technically I believe the official scorer has some leeway on this, but it is rarely used.
Spy
Technically I believe the official scorer has some leeway on this, but it is rarely used.
Spy
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King of Queens
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Ranting again...
The biggest problem is that (unlike saves) SOMEONE needs to get the "W". What do you propose should happen if:
*Randy Johnson is up 5-0 and leaves after the 8th
*Rivera gives up 5 in the top of the 9th to tie the game
*The Yankees score 1 in the bottom of the 9th to win the game
Who should get credited with the win here? IMO, the fair answer would be "no one", but I suppose we're so fixated on always having a winner and a loser that someone needs to get a "W" and someone an "L".
*Randy Johnson is up 5-0 and leaves after the 8th
*Rivera gives up 5 in the top of the 9th to tie the game
*The Yankees score 1 in the bottom of the 9th to win the game
Who should get credited with the win here? IMO, the fair answer would be "no one", but I suppose we're so fixated on always having a winner and a loser that someone needs to get a "W" and someone an "L".
Ranting again...
Who should get credited with the win here? The Yankees.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Ranting again...
It sounds like what you would want as a catagory is "Quality Starts". The fact is, though, Wins are the most prestigious stat for a pitcher and the good ones will get them regardless of how poorly their team plays and the bad ones will lose them due to them throwing up melons. Look at the Cy Young winners. I've seen some very mediocre stat lines with 21 wins, but the fact is people like winners.
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sportsbettingman
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Ranting again...
So you are saying defense is the key factor to pitching?
From what I know...errors take away hits...errors are not part of earned runs. The defense only effects WHIP and ERA if they came close enough to the play to not make the play and not make an error...sounds to me like it's not a higher impact than a pitcher hitting his spots and pitching.
4 of 5 my butt.
Keep trying.
~Lance
From what I know...errors take away hits...errors are not part of earned runs. The defense only effects WHIP and ERA if they came close enough to the play to not make the play and not make an error...sounds to me like it's not a higher impact than a pitcher hitting his spots and pitching.
4 of 5 my butt.
Keep trying.
~Lance
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
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sportsbettingman
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Ranting again...
Originally posted by King of Queens:
The biggest problem is that (unlike saves) SOMEONE needs to get the "W". What do you propose should happen if:
*Randy Johnson is up 5-0 and leaves after the 8th
*Rivera gives up 5 in the top of the 9th to tie the game
*The Yankees score 1 in the bottom of the 9th to win the game
Who should get credited with the win here? IMO, the fair answer would be "no one", but I suppose we're so fixated on always having a winner and a loser that someone needs to get a "W" and someone an "L". Randy Johnson got 24 of 27 outs without giving up a run...Rivera blows a "win" and blows a "saving of a win/hold/save"...he blows everything.
Blown save = no win...revert back one pitcher...Randy Johnson gets the win.
Just my opinion.
Or...like you said...no win given to a pitcher.
Yes...the Yankees win...THAT is the goal...team wins...not Pitcher wins.
I would not mind no win given to a pitcher in those type of games...no way in hell Rivera earned one.
~Lance
The biggest problem is that (unlike saves) SOMEONE needs to get the "W". What do you propose should happen if:
*Randy Johnson is up 5-0 and leaves after the 8th
*Rivera gives up 5 in the top of the 9th to tie the game
*The Yankees score 1 in the bottom of the 9th to win the game
Who should get credited with the win here? IMO, the fair answer would be "no one", but I suppose we're so fixated on always having a winner and a loser that someone needs to get a "W" and someone an "L". Randy Johnson got 24 of 27 outs without giving up a run...Rivera blows a "win" and blows a "saving of a win/hold/save"...he blows everything.
Blown save = no win...revert back one pitcher...Randy Johnson gets the win.
Just my opinion.
Or...like you said...no win given to a pitcher.
Yes...the Yankees win...THAT is the goal...team wins...not Pitcher wins.
I would not mind no win given to a pitcher in those type of games...no way in hell Rivera earned one.
~Lance
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
Ranting again...
Originally posted by sportsbettingman:
So you are saying defense is the key factor to pitching?
From what I know...errors take away hits...errors are not part of earned runs. The defense only effects WHIP and ERA if they came close enough to the play to not make the play and not make an error...sounds to me like it's not a higher impact than a pitcher hitting his spots and pitching.
4 of 5 my butt.
Keep trying.
~Lance Good luck with all that. My impression is that you are a football guy or a 'sports guy' who thinks you can watch what you need to on TV and get the gist of the game before going out and making an attempt in a high stakes fantasy game. When you lose you throw your hands up and say bad luck. I'd say keep trying, but, are you really? Really? I could go on a rant here about errors and where they came from and how ineffective they are in scoring the actual events of a game, but I mean, dude, go read Moneyball. That's elementary s and it's an inexcusable deficiency at this level of competition.
[ May 27, 2006, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: bjoak ]
So you are saying defense is the key factor to pitching?
From what I know...errors take away hits...errors are not part of earned runs. The defense only effects WHIP and ERA if they came close enough to the play to not make the play and not make an error...sounds to me like it's not a higher impact than a pitcher hitting his spots and pitching.
4 of 5 my butt.
Keep trying.
~Lance Good luck with all that. My impression is that you are a football guy or a 'sports guy' who thinks you can watch what you need to on TV and get the gist of the game before going out and making an attempt in a high stakes fantasy game. When you lose you throw your hands up and say bad luck. I'd say keep trying, but, are you really? Really? I could go on a rant here about errors and where they came from and how ineffective they are in scoring the actual events of a game, but I mean, dude, go read Moneyball. That's elementary s and it's an inexcusable deficiency at this level of competition.
[ May 27, 2006, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: bjoak ]
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Ranting again...
The official scorer can change a win to the most effective pitcher. It happened earlier this year, I believe with Tampa Bay, as the RP gave up a hit that tied the game and then the catcher threw out the next runner trying to steal. Their team then went ahead in the next inning and the closer got 3 outs for a save, which was later changed to a win(taking away the save)
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sportsbettingman
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Ranting again...
You make me laugh.
Are you attempting to say "scoreboard?"
Are you some master of this game?
How many years of success are you basing this on?
I'd guess that you know no more than I do re: major league baseball rules/players/stats.
You blow your own horn often...and yet...look at your last few posts...pure fluff...no substance.
Go read moneyball?
So much of your posts stink of your jock-sniffing worship of your home team.
Alameda/Oakland...c'mon...that's nowhere near the cradle of baseball.
Say something with content...and I'll give you respect.
~Lance
Are you attempting to say "scoreboard?"
Are you some master of this game?
How many years of success are you basing this on?
I'd guess that you know no more than I do re: major league baseball rules/players/stats.
You blow your own horn often...and yet...look at your last few posts...pure fluff...no substance.
Go read moneyball?
So much of your posts stink of your jock-sniffing worship of your home team.
Alameda/Oakland...c'mon...that's nowhere near the cradle of baseball.
Say something with content...and I'll give you respect.
~Lance
"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
~Albert Einstein
~Albert Einstein
Ranting again...
I'm not really talking trash here. I feel bad for you, buddy. I was trying to give you a source for someone who doesn't know anything to begin. Anyway, maybe I haven't dominated the charts over here, but I've been consistently successful. The results are in he standings.
Yes, if you think error stats mean anything, that's just sad. I actually wrote up an explanation on this and then erased it. Error stats are evidently f'ed up and if you can't see that, like, I don't know, read up another source. Moneyball is simply a guide for beginners, which seemed relevent to you; try another source that has academics from MIT or the University of Chicago. Your ideas are prehistoric. I was just trying to push you in the right directon, but cheer up, football season is on the way.
Yes, if you think error stats mean anything, that's just sad. I actually wrote up an explanation on this and then erased it. Error stats are evidently f'ed up and if you can't see that, like, I don't know, read up another source. Moneyball is simply a guide for beginners, which seemed relevent to you; try another source that has academics from MIT or the University of Chicago. Your ideas are prehistoric. I was just trying to push you in the right directon, but cheer up, football season is on the way.
Chance favors the prepared mind.